Avalance 18 T-TQWT
Hi Y'all,
I would take a look at bjorno's T-TQWT. I'll attach a starter Hornresp simulation, you can take it lower, higher.... And, it's not very big for a driver of this class.
It would be nice to have measured T/S parameters.
Regards,
Hi Y'all,
I would take a look at bjorno's T-TQWT. I'll attach a starter Hornresp simulation, you can take it lower, higher.... And, it's not very big for a driver of this class.
It would be nice to have measured T/S parameters.
Regards,
Attachments
A varient of the IB
I originally wanted to go the IB route, but I realized that while the IB has some important advantages, such as low back pressure on both sides of the cone which lowers distortion (I noticed this when I installed my Lowther's on open baffles instead of in a backhorn), it starts to loose some of the advantages at lower frequencies because of the combined poor coupling with the air and the large swept volume required. Thus, I would either need at least two more drivers, or need to improve their efficiency. This, of course, is where horns, reflex or 4+ order bandpass designs come in, potentially allowing my two drivers to get much better efficiency at lower frequencies.
I was further searching the sonotube option, when I tripped over a way to do a variant of the IB as a bass reflex design. If you want to read the entire research on this see:
IB makeover.......... - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com
Basically, the guy with an IB created a smaller backwave space (used a corner of his attic, 37 cuft, instead of the entire attic) for the IB and installed a 10 inch port from that small attic space into the room. The modified IB was able to achieve 6+ db output at lower frequencies (under 20 hz) and achieve a flat frequency response down to 10 hz with little to no boost. Apparently, the modified IB improved the IB's (now reflex) overall sound quality over the original IB. An important incentive for him to do this was to reduce the amount of bass energy that was transmitted to the rest of his house - this would not be an issue for me.
Retsel
I originally wanted to go the IB route, but I realized that while the IB has some important advantages, such as low back pressure on both sides of the cone which lowers distortion (I noticed this when I installed my Lowther's on open baffles instead of in a backhorn), it starts to loose some of the advantages at lower frequencies because of the combined poor coupling with the air and the large swept volume required. Thus, I would either need at least two more drivers, or need to improve their efficiency. This, of course, is where horns, reflex or 4+ order bandpass designs come in, potentially allowing my two drivers to get much better efficiency at lower frequencies.
I was further searching the sonotube option, when I tripped over a way to do a variant of the IB as a bass reflex design. If you want to read the entire research on this see:
IB makeover.......... - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com
Basically, the guy with an IB created a smaller backwave space (used a corner of his attic, 37 cuft, instead of the entire attic) for the IB and installed a 10 inch port from that small attic space into the room. The modified IB was able to achieve 6+ db output at lower frequencies (under 20 hz) and achieve a flat frequency response down to 10 hz with little to no boost. Apparently, the modified IB improved the IB's (now reflex) overall sound quality over the original IB. An important incentive for him to do this was to reduce the amount of bass energy that was transmitted to the rest of his house - this would not be an issue for me.
Retsel
Freddi,
On on of your pics or a couple I see you used a tweeter on the top board.
You had some sort of cyl on ithe tweeter. I need a tweeter on mine
and how would you configure it?
I need to figure out how to make the cyl.
I"m over on the mini-karlsonator thread.
: )
Eminence 12LTA, K12 or K15?
Hello all,
A friend of mine (cellist) asked me to put together a speaker for an electric piano he sometimes uses as accompaniment. This electric piano playing its own speakers sounds distorted and small paired with the cello.
Do you think a Karlson+12LTA can do the job?. And what's the best for 12LTA, K12 or K15?. How much power can handle?
The music hall is small, max 150 people.
Thanks
Hello all,
A friend of mine (cellist) asked me to put together a speaker for an electric piano he sometimes uses as accompaniment. This electric piano playing its own speakers sounds distorted and small paired with the cello.
Do you think a Karlson+12LTA can do the job?. And what's the best for 12LTA, K12 or K15?. How much power can handle?
The music hall is small, max 150 people.
Thanks
I would think K15 would work with 12LTA. 12LTA is a low power wideband with high sensitivity - probably as the coil winding depth is only 0.08" more than its gap height. You should probably add a K-tube tweeter but I'm not sure how much treble power and extension is needed for cello reproduction.
I think 12LTA would probably hold up if things aren't too loud. K12 would be a lot nicer to carry than K12. K12 could also be vented with a single vent or two instead of the distributed slits.
Look at this thread where a builder used two round vents (70mm to hold tube) and plexiglass wings on his K12 build
http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=hug&m=159409&VT=T
I'm not sure of his final tuning so it would be good to ask him.
Pix comment
"..Why a K-12 for musical instruments?
Answer: I like the transient handling at low and middle frequencies. The Fane speaker is a brutal transducer capable of producing extreme sound pressures and the K enhances the transient handling coinsiderably when properly tuned."
XRK can check my Beta15cx graph vs its parameters in akabak and compare to what he got with 12LTA - my port was 40 sq.in. - I did tighten the lowpass gap area (rear shelf gap to back panel) to get it to play without much subjective "boom" using "DAFOS" tracks
I usually run strong motor coaxial or woofer in K12 - there might be an in-between size of K12 and K15 which would work for 12LTA. 12LTA does not sound muddy in a K12 - but it does lack a bit of impact - maybe some of that comes from comparing coaxial woofers with lower crossover compression drivers - but I do think stronger motors can sound snappier.
12LTA in a slit vent K12 outdoors - one on-axis - three traces 45 degrees off horizontal axis. The red trace
was the mic pointing above the enclosure
Beta15cx
Resonant Frequency (fs) 34 Hz
Impedance (Re) 5.54 ohms
Coil Inductance (Le) 1.06mH
Electromagnetic Q (Qes) .58
Mechanical Q (Qms) 7.68
Total Q (Qts) .54
Compliance Equivalent Vol. (Vas) 366.4 Liters/12.94cu. ft.
Voice Coil Overhang (Xmax) 3.0mm
Surface area of Cone (Sd) .08237m2
1954 spec K15 with 40 square inch vent - - JBL M151 (Qts~0.25) vs Beta15cx (qts ~0.54)
this is an outdoor graph - -mic on ground
I think 12LTA would probably hold up if things aren't too loud. K12 would be a lot nicer to carry than K12. K12 could also be vented with a single vent or two instead of the distributed slits.
Look at this thread where a builder used two round vents (70mm to hold tube) and plexiglass wings on his K12 build
http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=hug&m=159409&VT=T
I'm not sure of his final tuning so it would be good to ask him.
Pix comment
"..Why a K-12 for musical instruments?
Answer: I like the transient handling at low and middle frequencies. The Fane speaker is a brutal transducer capable of producing extreme sound pressures and the K enhances the transient handling coinsiderably when properly tuned."
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
XRK can check my Beta15cx graph vs its parameters in akabak and compare to what he got with 12LTA - my port was 40 sq.in. - I did tighten the lowpass gap area (rear shelf gap to back panel) to get it to play without much subjective "boom" using "DAFOS" tracks
I usually run strong motor coaxial or woofer in K12 - there might be an in-between size of K12 and K15 which would work for 12LTA. 12LTA does not sound muddy in a K12 - but it does lack a bit of impact - maybe some of that comes from comparing coaxial woofers with lower crossover compression drivers - but I do think stronger motors can sound snappier.
12LTA in a slit vent K12 outdoors - one on-axis - three traces 45 degrees off horizontal axis. The red trace
was the mic pointing above the enclosure
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Beta15cx
Resonant Frequency (fs) 34 Hz
Impedance (Re) 5.54 ohms
Coil Inductance (Le) 1.06mH
Electromagnetic Q (Qes) .58
Mechanical Q (Qms) 7.68
Total Q (Qts) .54
Compliance Equivalent Vol. (Vas) 366.4 Liters/12.94cu. ft.
Voice Coil Overhang (Xmax) 3.0mm
Surface area of Cone (Sd) .08237m2
1954 spec K15 with 40 square inch vent - - JBL M151 (Qts~0.25) vs Beta15cx (qts ~0.54)
this is an outdoor graph - -mic on ground
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
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XRK, Freddi, thanks for your comments
XRK, the speaker will be used in a music hall, far from walls. Reading old posts I understood that Karlsonator is best suited for small rooms, and K15 for big ones or open. I'm wrong on this?.
Freddi, the post you linked is very interesting. This man has done what i'm trying, similar target. He wrote:
"Wow! This is just what the doctor ordered: The superb transient handling capabilities of a K really come to use here. Piano sounds are clear and crisp like nothing I heard before. For the first time I hear a speaker system that matches the headphones I use for practise."
I know 12LTA is not the best for a Karlson, but we are limited about 150€ for each speaker. If you think it could work, we'll try a K12.
Thanks
XRK, the speaker will be used in a music hall, far from walls. Reading old posts I understood that Karlsonator is best suited for small rooms, and K15 for big ones or open. I'm wrong on this?.
Freddi, the post you linked is very interesting. This man has done what i'm trying, similar target. He wrote:
"Wow! This is just what the doctor ordered: The superb transient handling capabilities of a K really come to use here. Piano sounds are clear and crisp like nothing I heard before. For the first time I hear a speaker system that matches the headphones I use for practise."
I know 12LTA is not the best for a Karlson, but we are limited about 150€ for each speaker. If you think it could work, we'll try a K12.
Thanks
Vitorio,
The K15 is best suited for larger spaces simply because it is so efficient when matched with an appropriate driver to give it high efficiency in the 60 Hz and above bass region. The Karlsonator is pretty efficient too and achieves lower bass extension at the expense of efficiency. They have slightly different dynamics and I believe the impulse response of Karlsonator is actually quite good. I have never actually listened to a K15 or variant so I can't say other than based on simulations. I would defer to Freddi for recommendation of which is better for your purposes.
The K15 is best suited for larger spaces simply because it is so efficient when matched with an appropriate driver to give it high efficiency in the 60 Hz and above bass region. The Karlsonator is pretty efficient too and achieves lower bass extension at the expense of efficiency. They have slightly different dynamics and I believe the impulse response of Karlsonator is actually quite good. I have never actually listened to a K15 or variant so I can't say other than based on simulations. I would defer to Freddi for recommendation of which is better for your purposes.
with a K12 and 12LTA, there will be good midrange but bass will drop below 80Hz so things will depend upon the audience's perception of missing fundamentals. (I think it would still sound decent - I can feel the notes of a K12 with P-Audio 12CXA on Rudy Rosa CDs where he emulates a guitar) so K12 are strong in a certain range.
Beta 10cx plays lower in regular K12 but is a bit less sensitive than 12LTA. K15 would probably play to around 50Hz strong with 12LTA -- wish I were better organized and not having health problems or I'd make an adapter plate and load 12LTA into K15. C12XA doesn't go lower than 12LTA. 12LTA in the slit vent K12 did a pretty good job of playing Danley's Harley bike track. A Nirvana Super10 in 70 liter, 41Hz tuned reflex could not play the track as cone excursion went wild.
XRK - does 12LTA look good in the Karlsonator12? - it would probably go as low or lower than the larger K15. How does 12LTA look for output and excursion in the Karlsonator12 vs K12?
Beta 10cx plays lower in regular K12 but is a bit less sensitive than 12LTA. K15 would probably play to around 50Hz strong with 12LTA -- wish I were better organized and not having health problems or I'd make an adapter plate and load 12LTA into K15. C12XA doesn't go lower than 12LTA. 12LTA in the slit vent K12 did a pretty good job of playing Danley's Harley bike track. A Nirvana Super10 in 70 liter, 41Hz tuned reflex could not play the track as cone excursion went wild.
XRK - does 12LTA look good in the Karlsonator12? - it would probably go as low or lower than the larger K15. How does 12LTA look for output and excursion in the Karlsonator12 vs K12?
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Freddi, in an original KLAM, is the rear box, sealed, or ported? And if ported, should it be ported at the top of the speaker, the bottom of the speaker, or at the front?
Still thinking of making a pair of KLAMs using a kenwood 6X9 speaker.
Which also has a tweeter on the front and some sort of mid.
Yeah I know, car audio, blasphemy in a DIY site.
Still waiting to find some time to do this. have been working too many hours lately. And when I get home, have family things to do.
Still thinking of making a pair of KLAMs using a kenwood 6X9 speaker.
Which also has a tweeter on the front and some sort of mid.
Yeah I know, car audio, blasphemy in a DIY site.
Still waiting to find some time to do this. have been working too many hours lately. And when I get home, have family things to do.
I think Karlson's originals had a small vent at the "top" corner (long plate side) of the cabinet baffle. A 6x9 auto coax might be pretty cool. You could compare it vented vs sealed. Karlson had grille cloth over the driver and the vent.
if the coax tweeter is centered and your klam is longer than the AP9C below, then you could experiment with a K-tube - maybe a quick one of rolled paper cut with scissors and taped to the dome plate - here's a rough example of a K-tube jammed down a 15" coax's horn http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mupb8X6iZ6I
the top drawing above is what I think was his 6x9 asymmetric projector. Karlson's 6x9 ceiling speaker (AP9C) was supposed to be good so you could use the coupler portion of that for sizing.
I'll have to find the actual pictures of the AP9C as Imageshack has lost those I uploaded
if the coax tweeter is centered and your klam is longer than the AP9C below, then you could experiment with a K-tube - maybe a quick one of rolled paper cut with scissors and taped to the dome plate - here's a rough example of a K-tube jammed down a 15" coax's horn http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mupb8X6iZ6I
the top drawing above is what I think was his 6x9 asymmetric projector. Karlson's 6x9 ceiling speaker (AP9C) was supposed to be good so you could use the coupler portion of that for sizing.
I'll have to find the actual pictures of the AP9C as Imageshack has lost those I uploaded
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
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K15 with Kilomax 15 Driver
I was getting some questions about the K15 proper over in the mini Karlsonator thread and thought that redirecting some of the questions here would be better to stay on topic.
Here is the post from the mini Karlsonator thread and answer:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/239338-mini-karlsonator-0-53x-dual-tc9fds-49.html#post3845405
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/239338-mini-karlsonator-0-53x-dual-tc9fds-49.html#post3845662
After seeing how good the Kilomax 15 looks in the K15 at 2.83 volts I decided to push it to xmax to see what this speaker can really do in a large space.
Adding a 3rd order high pass filter at 35 Hz to keep the low frequency excursions under control, it took 50 volts to make the Kilomax 15 hit its xmax of 8 mm (near 35 Hz). Xmechanical is another thing though...
The K15 can belt out a 125 dB SPL from 56 Hz to 935 Hz (-3 dB points) at 1 meter with 50 volts rms. That is about 312 watts - still far below the 1250 watt rating so power compression should not be an issue.
Here are the SPL vs Freq for 2.83 volts and 50 volts at 1 meter.
I was getting some questions about the K15 proper over in the mini Karlsonator thread and thought that redirecting some of the questions here would be better to stay on topic.
Here is the post from the mini Karlsonator thread and answer:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/239338-mini-karlsonator-0-53x-dual-tc9fds-49.html#post3845405
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/239338-mini-karlsonator-0-53x-dual-tc9fds-49.html#post3845662
After seeing how good the Kilomax 15 looks in the K15 at 2.83 volts I decided to push it to xmax to see what this speaker can really do in a large space.
Adding a 3rd order high pass filter at 35 Hz to keep the low frequency excursions under control, it took 50 volts to make the Kilomax 15 hit its xmax of 8 mm (near 35 Hz). Xmechanical is another thing though...
The K15 can belt out a 125 dB SPL from 56 Hz to 935 Hz (-3 dB points) at 1 meter with 50 volts rms. That is about 312 watts - still far below the 1250 watt rating so power compression should not be an issue.
Here are the SPL vs Freq for 2.83 volts and 50 volts at 1 meter.
Attachments
FWIW, I seem to recall somebody tried the Kilomax in a K15 about 10-12 years back, spent a bunch of money on fancy custom veneered enclosures, and then ended up not liking the sound at all.
Based on this, I'd be more inclined to try a Kappa15 first. There was actually a Kappa15 lying around in my junk bin when I had my K15's, but never tried it for some reason.
Based on this, I'd be more inclined to try a Kappa15 first. There was actually a Kappa15 lying around in my junk bin when I had my K15's, but never tried it for some reason.
For certain PA applications I could see a 48dB HPF being reasonable, although, not sure if that would buy us much more SPL in the Kilomax/K15 scenerio as it's already keeping pace with heavy weight systems, but why not optimize... 
If my observations are correct it seems that very few speakers driven to such levels can maintain an unexaggerated FR (which was pleasingly flat to begin with). The nice polars and near constant directivity of the Karlson probably outweigh any midrange coloration in a PA application (especially seeing as the room reflections will be significantly diminished). The K15 and T15 continue to tempt me, I've just been busy working an unusual project with XRK, (that will eventually see the light of day!), and haven't had time to build any Karlson variants yet.
If my observations are correct it seems that very few speakers driven to such levels can maintain an unexaggerated FR (which was pleasingly flat to begin with). The nice polars and near constant directivity of the Karlson probably outweigh any midrange coloration in a PA application (especially seeing as the room reflections will be significantly diminished). The K15 and T15 continue to tempt me, I've just been busy working an unusual project with XRK, (that will eventually see the light of day!), and haven't had time to build any Karlson variants yet.
OK, -48dB/oct at 19 Hz HPF applied, now lets us crank the drive voltage up 90 volts rms. True to the Kilomax namesake, 1 kW of drive power get us an average 127 dB with -3dB points at 57 Hz and 1.14 kHz. Ear bleed levels I believe
. Step back 5 meters and you still get 116dB. Also, here is the T15-Grande(+3 inches added to TL) at same drive levels with same 48dB HPF. Not as flat but gets you to 50 Hz as -3dB point.Attachments
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Kilomax15 was probably like my Dayton/Eminence 295-070 only worse - poor tone, lack of clarity - maybe even higher distortion than some lower mass drivers. For home use, something like an Altec 421 sounded pretty good - much better than K33. 70g mms is probably a good figure for a 15.
295-070's MMD according to hornresp was 110.57g - - for home use a Nirvana 10 would sound better - my Super10 has a Qt ~0.41 so is a bit ripe sounding -still has some that Karlson magic on bowed bass recordings like one would get with an Altec 604. 295-070 is pretty good at making loud bass in a tapped pipe.
Dayton 295-070 105oz magnet, power = 250 watts, Voice Coil = 3 in., Spl=95.23dB, Re= 5.4ohm,
Fs = 26.4, Qms=8.25/Qes=0.300, Vas= 11.986 cu.ft., Qts=0.29, Le = 1.4mH, BL = 18.2, Xmax = 7.8mm, Sd = 132.7 sq.in. weight ~20lb, no = 2.007%
Lapaire was using 4.8mm xmax rated Omega 15 in his K15 - said when doing a sound check someone accidentally turned things way up on drums - it was so loud that it surprised people. K15 can put out sound which would kill a bass reflex.
Karlson K15 won't kill a good woofer's tone but a crappy woofer in K15 sure will. The crap woofer will still sound like crap as a direct radiator. Even with an 80Hz crossover.
The high crossover George was using with his Kilomax15 in Martinelli's K15 and little wood horn sure musta not helped matters. A cheap Eminence with small magnet, multi-ribbed cone and 55g mms would have sounded better for home use than the Kilomax imo.
295-070's MMD according to hornresp was 110.57g - - for home use a Nirvana 10 would sound better - my Super10 has a Qt ~0.41 so is a bit ripe sounding -still has some that Karlson magic on bowed bass recordings like one would get with an Altec 604. 295-070 is pretty good at making loud bass in a tapped pipe.
Dayton 295-070 105oz magnet, power = 250 watts, Voice Coil = 3 in., Spl=95.23dB, Re= 5.4ohm,
Fs = 26.4, Qms=8.25/Qes=0.300, Vas= 11.986 cu.ft., Qts=0.29, Le = 1.4mH, BL = 18.2, Xmax = 7.8mm, Sd = 132.7 sq.in. weight ~20lb, no = 2.007%
Lapaire was using 4.8mm xmax rated Omega 15 in his K15 - said when doing a sound check someone accidentally turned things way up on drums - it was so loud that it surprised people. K15 can put out sound which would kill a bass reflex.
Karlson K15 won't kill a good woofer's tone but a crappy woofer in K15 sure will. The crap woofer will still sound like crap as a direct radiator. Even with an 80Hz crossover.
The high crossover George was using with his Kilomax15 in Martinelli's K15 and little wood horn sure musta not helped matters. A cheap Eminence with small magnet, multi-ribbed cone and 55g mms would have sounded better for home use than the Kilomax imo.
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