It really isn't all that hard to develop the contours of a waveguide. The real question becomes what material you want to make the guide out of? If it is wood you have multiple methods to do that or you could just jump to fiberglass if you have the skills or look to making a 3d printed part that you reinforce for real use after it is molded. Serial production is another thing all together compared to a set of one offs. I've done some nice waveguides in the past using some nice mahogany made by stacking layers and hand working the layers after construction. Some may look to using a series of router templates that you stack to do a similar thing. Where there is a will there is a way. A cast resin horn also can work, done that about 40 years ago with polyester resin and phenolic micro ballons or resin and chopped glass fibers, just don't try to use something like that in a mobile application as it won't hold up, but for a home application no problem.
Could look good.
Waveguide WG 220x150
Simon
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Waveguide WG 220x150
Simon
Maybe I need to take a break from this...
I still read a lot of threads on here, and after seeing a lot of people pushing their own findings like it's the only thing to do I figured: I don't want to be like that! But I probably am....
I started this project out of curiosity, wanting to find some answers in this jungle of sound. I'm pretty happy with the answers I found. They were different from what I thought they would be. I've learned a lot and shared as much as I could. But I don't want to end up like many on here, defending their ideas like it's the only way to go!
I've learned to steer the sound any way I want. I've had countless different sounds around me, all with the same speakers but different EQ settings or processing. I've had goose bumps, I've even shed some tears listening to a great song. But all of that doesn't mean my route is "the only way".
I just had a listening session and again I was amazed at what I heard. The music is really reeling me in and I'm caught in the moment. I feel pretty proud when listening to songs like this. Yet I don't want to become one of the "know it all's" pushing their ideas on this forum. It's not hard to fall into that trap.
I'll never stop listening, and I won't even stop experimenting to some degree. Maybe it would be alright if I try to stay out of certain topics (lol). Yes, this project convinced me of some important aspects of sound. And I sure have been vocal about them. Time for me to apologise?
What do you guys think? Do I need to take a break?
I am Ronald and I'm a Audioholic, there... I've said it...
I still read a lot of threads on here, and after seeing a lot of people pushing their own findings like it's the only thing to do I figured: I don't want to be like that! But I probably am....
I started this project out of curiosity, wanting to find some answers in this jungle of sound. I'm pretty happy with the answers I found. They were different from what I thought they would be. I've learned a lot and shared as much as I could. But I don't want to end up like many on here, defending their ideas like it's the only way to go!
I've learned to steer the sound any way I want. I've had countless different sounds around me, all with the same speakers but different EQ settings or processing. I've had goose bumps, I've even shed some tears listening to a great song. But all of that doesn't mean my route is "the only way".
I just had a listening session and again I was amazed at what I heard. The music is really reeling me in and I'm caught in the moment. I feel pretty proud when listening to songs like this. Yet I don't want to become one of the "know it all's" pushing their ideas on this forum. It's not hard to fall into that trap.
I'll never stop listening, and I won't even stop experimenting to some degree. Maybe it would be alright if I try to stay out of certain topics (lol). Yes, this project convinced me of some important aspects of sound. And I sure have been vocal about them. Time for me to apologise?
What do you guys think? Do I need to take a break?
I am Ronald and I'm a Audioholic, there... I've said it...
I must say, yes!
You need to listen to your amazing towers and not worry for a while.
But that doesn't mean you should disappear! Stick around... you may find some new ways of doing things that may or may not work for you. You're not a know-it-all... you're someone who tried it and saw if it would work for you or not. And you shared so much along the way. This community is deeply appreciative. I know I am.
For people like you and me, it's never done and finished. there's always something we think of... but it's ok to take a break once a while and just enjoy.
So, enjoy the fun, the tears, the emotional lift that music brings.... but we will always be around.
You need to listen to your amazing towers and not worry for a while.
But that doesn't mean you should disappear! Stick around... you may find some new ways of doing things that may or may not work for you. You're not a know-it-all... you're someone who tried it and saw if it would work for you or not. And you shared so much along the way. This community is deeply appreciative. I know I am.
For people like you and me, it's never done and finished. there's always something we think of... but it's ok to take a break once a while and just enjoy.
So, enjoy the fun, the tears, the emotional lift that music brings.... but we will always be around.
I hope I didn't sound too much that way; "My way is best"... I certainly never meant to sound that way. You're one of my main favorite people to hear from on this site. But we all need to take breaks from time to time. Sometimes an Engineer will listen too close to every little imperfection, and miss a more objective and enjoyable point of view. We can get burnt out on it all. I appreciate really good sound, but ultimately it's more about the music. Does it take me to a nice place in my head? Does it feel good? Does it do it's magic on me? I sure hope to hear from you again in the future, but take a break if it feels like you want to. Cheers.
You have been one of the most dedicated, openminded and inspiring contributors of this forum.
Absolutely no reason to apologize on the contrary. Whenever you have something to add, please do so. If you need a break, thats very understandably as you have spend a lot of time sharing your findings, but dont think for a second you have pushed your ideas on any of us following this thread.
Anybody that feels so could just stop following this
Absolutely no reason to apologize on the contrary. Whenever you have something to add, please do so. If you need a break, thats very understandably as you have spend a lot of time sharing your findings, but dont think for a second you have pushed your ideas on any of us following this thread.
Anybody that feels so could just stop following this
My last 4 speakers were a ribbon tweeter monitors with sub; full range electrostats; massive line arrays; and relatively conventional 3 ways. Each had different qualities. Each were enjoyable in many ways and limited in others. Like coupes vs sedans vs hatches vs SUV and front, mid, or rear engines and 4,6, 8, 10, or 12 cylinders, turbo, gas, diesel, hybrid, or EV...there is no more a "best" in speakers any more than a "best" in cars. Different applications for different tastes, conditions, music, and rooms.
There is definitely better and worse and there are multiple ways to get to great. There is objective and subjective. There are things that measure well and sound lousy and that measure relatively poorly but sound good. Lots of ways to skin the cat.
I am here to learn about building speakers. I know a lot about audio. I've studied it my whole life. I've been fortunate to own some great gear and had the pleasure of auditioning some extrodinary systems. But actually building them myself is new to me and I'm trying to absorb all I can. The experience and wisdom of the people on this board and especially people like Ronald is terrifically helpful to me. It is also pretty intimidating. Can I really do this? Can I build a great pair of speakers. I think I can, but i still have more to learn. So please keep the posts coming with all the pictures and details and stubborn opinions about what each of you deem "best"!
There is definitely better and worse and there are multiple ways to get to great. There is objective and subjective. There are things that measure well and sound lousy and that measure relatively poorly but sound good. Lots of ways to skin the cat.
I am here to learn about building speakers. I know a lot about audio. I've studied it my whole life. I've been fortunate to own some great gear and had the pleasure of auditioning some extrodinary systems. But actually building them myself is new to me and I'm trying to absorb all I can. The experience and wisdom of the people on this board and especially people like Ronald is terrifically helpful to me. It is also pretty intimidating. Can I really do this? Can I build a great pair of speakers. I think I can, but i still have more to learn. So please keep the posts coming with all the pictures and details and stubborn opinions about what each of you deem "best"!
JRS,
Given a good attitude and some patience I don't see why you can't build the speakers you want to do. Unless you are a klutz there is no reason with some simple tools you can't build your speakers. Router templates are your friend and that just take a bit of care to make them so you can make your layers for your cabinets. I actually think for your short stack that the bolts through the cabinets would be unnecessary if you didn't use the neoprene between layers. What advantage they will give you in the way you plan to use them I'm not sure they will accomplish much really. Ronald has actually done a great job of using a constrained layer application, isolating an inside layer from an outside layer, you are only making individual resonant bodies in my eyes. Perhaps someone else has another opinion but looking at it from a strictly engineering perspective I don't see the advantage. If it is for looks then that is another factor and I wouldn't discourage it for that reason.
Given a good attitude and some patience I don't see why you can't build the speakers you want to do. Unless you are a klutz there is no reason with some simple tools you can't build your speakers. Router templates are your friend and that just take a bit of care to make them so you can make your layers for your cabinets. I actually think for your short stack that the bolts through the cabinets would be unnecessary if you didn't use the neoprene between layers. What advantage they will give you in the way you plan to use them I'm not sure they will accomplish much really. Ronald has actually done a great job of using a constrained layer application, isolating an inside layer from an outside layer, you are only making individual resonant bodies in my eyes. Perhaps someone else has another opinion but looking at it from a strictly engineering perspective I don't see the advantage. If it is for looks then that is another factor and I wouldn't discourage it for that reason.
Wesayso,
You can;t stop publishing, what am I going to read! I have been totally manipulated now, I love your line arrays and I wish I had the time to make you 50 small drivers so you could try a different driver in your arrays and see what you think. What am I going to do if you just enjoy the music, I am heartbroken. Of course I am just jiving you but I really have enjoyed reading all you have done. I only wish I had half your skills with the dsp and your application to your speakers. I will definitely be asking you some pointed question once my electronics package is finished. it is actually in the works now, finally. Great job and enjoy what you've created. I never thought I would change my opinion of line arrays but you have changed my thinking that is for sure.
You can;t stop publishing, what am I going to read! I have been totally manipulated now, I love your line arrays and I wish I had the time to make you 50 small drivers so you could try a different driver in your arrays and see what you think. What am I going to do if you just enjoy the music, I am heartbroken. Of course I am just jiving you but I really have enjoyed reading all you have done. I only wish I had half your skills with the dsp and your application to your speakers. I will definitely be asking you some pointed question once my electronics package is finished. it is actually in the works now, finally. Great job and enjoy what you've created. I never thought I would change my opinion of line arrays but you have changed my thinking that is for sure.
I must say, yes!
You need to listen to your amazing towers and not worry for a while.
But that doesn't mean you should disappear! Stick around... you may find some new ways of doing things that may or may not work for you. You're not a know-it-all... you're someone who tried it and saw if it would work for you or not. And you shared so much along the way. This community is deeply appreciative. I know I am.
For people like you and me, it's never done and finished. there's always something we think of... but it's ok to take a break once a while and just enjoy.
So, enjoy the fun, the tears, the emotional lift that music brings.... but we will always be around.
And all of this with lowly TV speakers
I like how you approach sound from engineering point of view, instead of relying on "golden ears" and placebo effects from using expensive speakers/cables/amps. Hard numbers is where the truth is.
You have been one of the most dedicated, openminded and inspiring contributors of this forum.
Absolutely no reason to apologize on the contrary. Whenever you have something to add, please do so. If you need a break, thats very understandably as you have spend a lot of time sharing your findings, but dont think for a second you have pushed your ideas on any of us following this thread.
Anybody that feels so could just stop following this
Thanks guys, like I said, I AM addicted to this stuff... I'd need to prove I can walk away first.
I'll be around... but I might just take it easy for a while. I'll never stop listening though. And probably won't stop reading either
. I need my daily fix of this audio gibberish. I can't help it. Just warn me when I become one of those know-it-all's, promise?
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JRSystems,
I kinda agree with Steven here. The way you plan the layers in groups with neoprene in between and trough bolts without an outer layer isn't CLD in my eyes either. I promised myself if I ever should do something like this again I'd do it like I did my repair job, but that would include a rigid outer layer.
Think about it... once you start it's too late. I'm not sure I'd advice a stack without rods and neoprene layers... hard to tell when a stack is becoming too large to work well.
I'm hearing you guys. So you both think it is small enough to just glue all of the layers together? Perhaps that might be easier to build as well. Hmmm.
So do I still do the metal bolts or would wood dowels be better? Perhaps the bolts can be used just as alignment guides and as clamping for the initial build and then left loose in the final structure to allow for some flex?
Funny, but the one thing I don't like about this design is that it seems to keep veering toward looking just like a Magico Mini. As I do this I realize just how good that Mini design was, but I don't want my speaker to just look like a knockoff. I think I'm going to play with the cabinet design some more to see if I can be a bit more creative. Then again, for my first shot at this, perhaps mimicking a great design is a good way to start...
So do I still do the metal bolts or would wood dowels be better? Perhaps the bolts can be used just as alignment guides and as clamping for the initial build and then left loose in the final structure to allow for some flex?
Funny, but the one thing I don't like about this design is that it seems to keep veering toward looking just like a Magico Mini. As I do this I realize just how good that Mini design was, but I don't want my speaker to just look like a knockoff. I think I'm going to play with the cabinet design some more to see if I can be a bit more creative. Then again, for my first shot at this, perhaps mimicking a great design is a good way to start...
As I explore this project, I continue to look at commercial speakers in a new light. Every exotic speaker claims to have some magic recipe for their greatness (and every reviewer seems to rave about most every speaker in equal proportion to its price), but is much of this just hype? I look at $175,000 Gauder Akoustic and $70,000 Lumen Whites and see what looks like a bunch of Accutron drivers in a nice wooden box. The $20,000 Gamut RS3s, the early Magicos, Sonous faber and a number of great, revered speakers all appear to use the same ScanSpeak ring radiator tweeter in good wood boxes for tens of thousands of dollars.
My ultimate plan is to build my two-way and then add a substantial bass cabinet and tri-amp the stack using the infinitely flexible DEQX for electronic crossover, DSP phase settings, and full suite of analysis tools. I want to get premium drivers such as those used in the great speakers just mentioned and build a box as rigid and substantial as anything made out of wood by any commercial builder. Given the flexibility to optimize the crossover and phase settings as needed after the build and the significant advantages of DSP controlled tri-amping (and the continued great advice from you guys), I am increasingly believing that I can ultimately build a world class speaker for a fraction of the price of the exotics that I have long admired. Am I missing something here?
My ultimate plan is to build my two-way and then add a substantial bass cabinet and tri-amp the stack using the infinitely flexible DEQX for electronic crossover, DSP phase settings, and full suite of analysis tools. I want to get premium drivers such as those used in the great speakers just mentioned and build a box as rigid and substantial as anything made out of wood by any commercial builder. Given the flexibility to optimize the crossover and phase settings as needed after the build and the significant advantages of DSP controlled tri-amping (and the continued great advice from you guys), I am increasingly believing that I can ultimately build a world class speaker for a fraction of the price of the exotics that I have long admired. Am I missing something here?
Yes, that's how I look at those speaker designs as well... But part of their "magic" will be the total combination of the chosen compromises. The first choice will be: what do you want the speaker to do and are there any size constraints!
What amps will you be using etc...
The most unique part of what we can do differently as DIY-ers is to make sure our speaker build works together with the room we want to use them in. No off the shelf speaker does that for you (well, except for the Beolab 90 perhaps).
Most often, the magic they sell is in the marketing.... That doesn't mean there aren't any good designs, but a selling point for high priced audio often is concentrated on prestige, sometimes hand crafted in wood with multiple lacquer layers, preferably hand polished by craftsmen, other times with expensive tooling using precise CNC machining as a selling point, but they are all looking for an edge and sellable argument. How much of all of that ends up as being truly beneficial to the sound remains to be seen.
For me, the true magic is in the music, already recorded. The speaker has one simple job: presenting that magic the best it can...
I assume your talking about my arrays? We got a bit side-tracked here for a while
.The drivers in the arrays are 5 drivers in series, 5 groups of that in parallel.
The resulting impedance of one speaker with 25 drivers is close to that of one single driver. The Vifa's are produced with close enough tolerances to do this series parallel wiring without drawback.
25 drivers impedance curves taken for one "tower".
Resulting impedance curve of 5x parallel wiring of 5 drivers in series:
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I assume your talking about my arrays? We got a bit side-tracked here for a while
The drivers in the arrays are 5 drivers in series, 5 groups of that in parallel.
The resulting impedance of one speaker with 25 drivers is close to that of one single driver. The Vifa's are produced with close enough tolerances to do this series parallel wiring without drawback.
25 drivers impedance curves taken for one "tower".
Resulting impedance curve of 5x parallel wiring of 5 drivers in series:
Hello Wesayso,
before some months I build this array
aktives-hoeren.de • Thema anzeigen - Focussierendes Array
similar to yours (thank you very much for the inspiration you gave me!) with two differences: The drivers are foccused to my listening place (no comb-filter -problems) and all (18) drivers were wired parallel. I tested different series-parallel wirings, but the most open, fast and clear sound I got by wiring altogether parallel. In my opinion the tolerances of the drivers are audible when parallel /serieries wiring is choosen. It was a kind of crossover sound.
The only, but solvable problem is the very low impedance- minimum of about 0.5 Ohms. With 25 drivers of course the only way is bi-amping if you don t want to fry the amp.
Best wishes
Martin
Watched with interest. Excellent post. Inspring me at least to lift my game. You mentioned early on that you wouldn't mind doing this as a job. Why not paying hobby? Precious few line arrays out there built to this level of quality. The popularity of this post shows marketing ablity that is innate. If you don't I'm sure you have inspired someone who will. All the best with any future endeavors.
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