Hey guys I have the Klipsch Rf-82 towers as my mains in the front and the consist of a 1 inch Tractix horn tweeter and 2 8" midbass drivers per speaker.
I am wanting to add in a dedicated midrange driver around 3-5 inches (not midbass, Midrange). My towers each get 90 watts RMS and have what I believe is 98 DB sensitivity so these speakers are very efficient.
I am interested in adding a small box on top of the towers with some paper midrange drivers to help reproduce electric guitar sounds and give my mids a little bit of a boost. What would work well for me? What do you recommend?
Here are the variables at play:
1. I don't have any spare amp channels, so this needs to be wired in with the rest of the speaker if possible.
2. My receiver may receive an upgrade for more watts at one point in time.
3. My budget is roughly $300 for everything.
4. I want paper cones for their reproduction qualities in the midrange.
5. The box needs to be roughly the same width and depth as the top of the speaker cabinet or smaller.
6. If an open air baffle setup is possible and will still sound good please do tell
7. The speaker needs to close in efficiency so I don't have to buy extra gear to Eq my mids with the rest of the speakers.
8. I already have 2 klipsch rf-62 towers, rc-52,rb-51's and rw12d sub, so I will not be replacing my speakers with some other speakers.
9. The speakers are over 4 ft tall so my midrange will be above that, but I can adjust the angle the midrange would fire at.
10. The easier the solution to integrate some mids in the better, if there is any plug and play option that specifically target midrange and have a variable crossover let me know!
11. I will need help in the crossover department help if you can.
12. I have the tools to build a good speaker box but not really a pro or anything.
Let me know what kind of suggestions you guys have I'm all ears.
Thanks dear audio fellows
I am wanting to add in a dedicated midrange driver around 3-5 inches (not midbass, Midrange). My towers each get 90 watts RMS and have what I believe is 98 DB sensitivity so these speakers are very efficient.
I am interested in adding a small box on top of the towers with some paper midrange drivers to help reproduce electric guitar sounds and give my mids a little bit of a boost. What would work well for me? What do you recommend?
Here are the variables at play:
1. I don't have any spare amp channels, so this needs to be wired in with the rest of the speaker if possible.
2. My receiver may receive an upgrade for more watts at one point in time.
3. My budget is roughly $300 for everything.
4. I want paper cones for their reproduction qualities in the midrange.
5. The box needs to be roughly the same width and depth as the top of the speaker cabinet or smaller.
6. If an open air baffle setup is possible and will still sound good please do tell
7. The speaker needs to close in efficiency so I don't have to buy extra gear to Eq my mids with the rest of the speakers.
8. I already have 2 klipsch rf-62 towers, rc-52,rb-51's and rw12d sub, so I will not be replacing my speakers with some other speakers.
9. The speakers are over 4 ft tall so my midrange will be above that, but I can adjust the angle the midrange would fire at.
10. The easier the solution to integrate some mids in the better, if there is any plug and play option that specifically target midrange and have a variable crossover let me know!
11. I will need help in the crossover department help if you can.
12. I have the tools to build a good speaker box but not really a pro or anything.
Let me know what kind of suggestions you guys have I'm all ears.
Thanks dear audio fellows
Being stubborn is not a bad quality...
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/239293-klipsch-rf-82s-questions-2.html#post3564740
...if it takes you to give that extra step.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/239293-klipsch-rf-82s-questions-2.html#post3564740
...if it takes you to give that extra step.
We don't really need another thread and having read the other one, I don't think this is going to get you where you want to go. Adding the mid will do little to recapture something that isn't there. A guitar amp has numerous effects including distortion and if that didn't transfer to the recording how are you expecting that adding a midrange is going to help?
Pardon me for asking but - WHY?
Those Klipsch Towers are not noted for lack of Midrange presence. Which make me wonder if something else is wrong.
How big is your room?
How close the the side walls and the wall behind are the speakers placed?
Though I don't know how much room those speakers need, I've generally found that the bass boost you get from placing a speaker close to the wall behind also causes the midrange to become muddy. This is especially true of speakers that are already bass heavy or that are rear ported.
In my case, I've simply solved this by moving my speakers forward so the fronts are even with the front of the equipment stand, that gives be about 10" to 12" behind the speaker, which works fine in my case.
Next, I'm curious about the room acoustics. If the room is a very bare ultra-modern room with minimalist furniture and so forth, then likely you need to explore controlling midrange reflections. This will cause, for lack of a better word, a blurring of the midrange.
I think you will find it extremely difficult to re-build an existing speaker. And I find it hard to believe that a Klipsch is lacking in midrange clarity and presence. I think far more likely there is something amiss with your room or your set up.
For example, one assumes that since you have a 5.1 system, you have a Surround Sound Amp? Are the speakers, especially the front speakers, set to SMALL or LARGE. Most recommend that regardless of the size of your front speakers, for movies, you set the system to SMALL.
One additional option if the speaker must be closer to the walls is to plug the ports with foam. That can soften the bass, and by extension clear up the midrange.
Next, are you absolutely sure beyond any shadow of a doubt, that the speakers are wired properly. That in every case the Amp(+) goes to the Speaker(+). Nothing will suck the life out of a pair of speakers like one of them being wired backwards.
Again, Room Acoustics, if this is a bare walled, wood floor, highly reflective room, then that is a problem. However if it is more cluttered with curtains, rugs, carpets, bookshelves, soft furnishings, etc..., then it is less of an acoustical problem.
I think there are a lot of things you need to consider and try before you start trying to rebuild the speakers. Though others are free to disagree. However, in my opinion, limited as it may be, I don't see Klipsch as lacking midrange presence.
Further, if you AV amp has a Room EQ feature that has been run during SetUp, try it without the Room EQ. Room EQ is nice in that it can smooth out a good room, but it can not fix a bad room. Try it with and without the EQ feature, if you have it, and see if one is better than the other.
Again, I think several things need to be verified before you start trying to rebuild the speakers.
But then ... that's just one man's opinion.
Steve/BlueWizard
Those Klipsch Towers are not noted for lack of Midrange presence. Which make me wonder if something else is wrong.
How big is your room?
How close the the side walls and the wall behind are the speakers placed?
Though I don't know how much room those speakers need, I've generally found that the bass boost you get from placing a speaker close to the wall behind also causes the midrange to become muddy. This is especially true of speakers that are already bass heavy or that are rear ported.
In my case, I've simply solved this by moving my speakers forward so the fronts are even with the front of the equipment stand, that gives be about 10" to 12" behind the speaker, which works fine in my case.
Next, I'm curious about the room acoustics. If the room is a very bare ultra-modern room with minimalist furniture and so forth, then likely you need to explore controlling midrange reflections. This will cause, for lack of a better word, a blurring of the midrange.
I think you will find it extremely difficult to re-build an existing speaker. And I find it hard to believe that a Klipsch is lacking in midrange clarity and presence. I think far more likely there is something amiss with your room or your set up.
For example, one assumes that since you have a 5.1 system, you have a Surround Sound Amp? Are the speakers, especially the front speakers, set to SMALL or LARGE. Most recommend that regardless of the size of your front speakers, for movies, you set the system to SMALL.
One additional option if the speaker must be closer to the walls is to plug the ports with foam. That can soften the bass, and by extension clear up the midrange.
Next, are you absolutely sure beyond any shadow of a doubt, that the speakers are wired properly. That in every case the Amp(+) goes to the Speaker(+). Nothing will suck the life out of a pair of speakers like one of them being wired backwards.
Again, Room Acoustics, if this is a bare walled, wood floor, highly reflective room, then that is a problem. However if it is more cluttered with curtains, rugs, carpets, bookshelves, soft furnishings, etc..., then it is less of an acoustical problem.
I think there are a lot of things you need to consider and try before you start trying to rebuild the speakers. Though others are free to disagree. However, in my opinion, limited as it may be, I don't see Klipsch as lacking midrange presence.
Further, if you AV amp has a Room EQ feature that has been run during SetUp, try it without the Room EQ. Room EQ is nice in that it can smooth out a good room, but it can not fix a bad room. Try it with and without the EQ feature, if you have it, and see if one is better than the other.
Again, I think several things need to be verified before you start trying to rebuild the speakers.
But then ... that's just one man's opinion.
Steve/BlueWizard
I am a bit stubborn and want to get to the bottom of this, this thread has other questions and people in the other thread only say "buy new stuff" which IMO is useless advice, I understand there are certain things I will not get with any speakers that a guitar live can do doesn't mean I can't try to get close. Perhaps its my inexpensive receiver that is making my speakers lack what I expect from them, maybe its my room acoustics, I don't know, I just wanted any valid advice from somebody that knows a lot about audio.
I simply had an idea and wanted some opinions, no need to shoot me down, just because I am trying to work the kinks out my system, I think we all are.
Thank YOU!! Finally someone that is actually being helpful, it is true my room acoustics have problems and speaker placement is not great due to such a small living room, initially I thought those things you mentioned would affect Bass and highs much more than midrange, but I do think you are right maybe I should try various things, upgrade my receiver and when I have all that down, start thinking about this.
How much can room acoustics and speaker placement/tuning effect the midrange? significantly? Or something only the ones with the keenest ears can hear?
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There is no social acceptance that is worth a reduction in sound quality to me haha... I won't stop improving till I can't do anything else with my budget and room etc..
I think you are right and that very well may be so, considering my speakers have a pretty flat response (based on a spec sheet, not my actual room readings of which I have none) across the midrange, I may not get any improvement in the midrange by adding stuff, perhaps Bluewizard is right and when I fix all the things he mentions I will be more satisfied with my sound.
Stubborn people brought us out of the belief that we live on a flat earth, stubborn people are the ones that wouldn't give up despite what anyone says to make a great product, they are typically the innovators at least when they are right, I guess when you are wrong and stubborn, no one wins.
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As I said in the first thread, I still maintain that you will not get this sound unless it's for sure on the recording. If it is on the recording, then you need either an amplifier or loudspeaker with extra energy in the frequency range that you want in order to get this "grunge" sound. This means that you're looking for a very specialized speaker, OR, a very poor one. I say the latter because you were saying before "why can cheap guitar cabinets sound like this but my loudspeakers can't?". Musical instrument cabs are there to do one thing: reproduce the sound of that instrument. A full range hi-fi loudspeaker is designed to reproduce the sounds of all instruments. You will not find a speaker on the market which sounds like a Klipsch up top, a Marshall stack in the mids and a Velodyne down low. This setup just makes no sense, so no one would design it as such.
By adding a midrange to an excellent 2-way system you are making zero guarantee you'll add any extra midrange oomph. What you can be sure of is that it will sound poorer as the system no longer is designed to work as a unit. I'll put it more simply: a good two way is in no way deficient compared to a 3-way. I will also say that a poorly designed 3-way will sound MUCH worse than a poorly designed 2-way. You're now looking at having a poorly designed 3-way vs. a properly designed 2-way. You cannot just throw in a mid and add midrange. It doesn't work that way.
By adding a midrange to an excellent 2-way system you are making zero guarantee you'll add any extra midrange oomph. What you can be sure of is that it will sound poorer as the system no longer is designed to work as a unit. I'll put it more simply: a good two way is in no way deficient compared to a 3-way. I will also say that a poorly designed 3-way will sound MUCH worse than a poorly designed 2-way. You're now looking at having a poorly designed 3-way vs. a properly designed 2-way. You cannot just throw in a mid and add midrange. It doesn't work that way.
Just fine. But two threads for the same problem I think it's to much. It shows how much you trust diyAudio members. After saying this, 
What is said about some speakers having a catenary output in frequency is also true. I had that problem before that I fixed. Meaning that the Low frequencies and the tweeters are set at a very high level comparing with the mids (in 2-ways or 3-ways) for commercial purposes. Client finds a very transparent response in both low and highs and studios (or auditoriums) are also well padded with soundproofing for extra comfort. Sometimes dialing the LF (ports location) and doing the same thing with the tweeters can have radical results. Have in mind that the new drivers (crossover components, woofer drivers and all) need some hours/days of play for full results. Not putting you down, you just ask for it when raising such good questions, but don't expect any miracle come knocking at your door. I know those speakers from reviews and they are not that good. Marketing is not your friend in this situation, the concept (Klipsch) is not the problem. The Devil is in the details.
What is said about some speakers having a catenary output in frequency is also true. I had that problem before that I fixed. Meaning that the Low frequencies and the tweeters are set at a very high level comparing with the mids (in 2-ways or 3-ways) for commercial purposes. Client finds a very transparent response in both low and highs and studios (or auditoriums) are also well padded with soundproofing for extra comfort. Sometimes dialing the LF (ports location) and doing the same thing with the tweeters can have radical results. Have in mind that the new drivers (crossover components, woofer drivers and all) need some hours/days of play for full results. Not putting you down, you just ask for it when raising such good questions, but don't expect any miracle come knocking at your door. I know those speakers from reviews and they are not that good. Marketing is not your friend in this situation, the concept (Klipsch) is not the problem. The Devil is in the details.
Wise words, I am still learning, although I've been messing with audio for a few years now
I wasn't aware that a 2-way can sound just as good as a 3-way when both are designed properly. I always assumed having more speakers=more frequencies can be produced at the same time due to a lighter load on each speaker. Obviously I do understand a cheap 3-way will be worse than a high quality 2-way, I just misunderstandingly hoped that adding a mid range would improve my sound similar to how adding a subwoofer improves low end. I hope you can understand my misinformation
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Just fine. But two threads for the same problem I think it's to much. It shows how much you trust diyAudio members. After saying this,
What is said about some speakers having a catenary output in frequency is also true. I had that problem before that I fixed. Meaning that the Low frequencies and the tweeters are set at a very high level comparing with the mids (in 2-ways or 3-ways) for commercial purposes. Client finds a very transparent response in both low and highs and studios (or auditoriums) are also well padded with soundproofing for extra comfort. Sometimes dialing the LF (ports location) and doing the same thing with the tweeters can have radical results. Have in mind that the new drivers (crossover components, woofer drivers and all) need some hours/days of play for full results. Not putting you down, you just ask for it when raising such good questions, but don't expect any miracle come knocking at your door. I know those speakers from reviews and they are not that good. Marketing is not your friend in this situation, the concept (Klipsch) is not the problem. The Devil is in the details.
Please elaborate on what you mean buy dialing the LF, I did a quick google search and didn't find a good explanation. My speaker are well past broken in.
I am not stating I have some badas* speakers it is what I could afford, at least I didn't buy Bose
Is the speaker system place on the narrow wall or the wide wall? If on the wide wall and playing into 12 feet of space, that could be a problem.
Then it comes to acoustics, there are three key points.
Corners - Bass tends to collect in the corners, you can soften the excess bass in a room with low cost corner traps. These can be foam or you can build your own.
First Reflections points - This would be a long the side walls where the sound first hit the wall and reflects toward the user. Sit in your prime listening spot and have someone move along the side walls with a mirror. When you can see the speaker in the mirror, that is the point of first reflection. Here you simply need a basic Acoustic Panel or some convoluted/wedge/pyramide foam panels.
The Rear Wall - and by that, I mean the wall opposite the speaker, not the wall behind them. In my case, that walls is the opening in an open floor plan Kitchen/Living room, so the things I will discuss are less critical. On the far wall you probably want a blend of absorption and diffusion. Perhaps a 2'x2' Diffusion panel flanked by TWO 2'x2' Absorption panels.
Here us a link to one of my posts in another forum about Room Acoustics in general.
Primer: Acoustics - Absorption & Diffusion | AVForums.com - UK Online
In Post #2 you can hear how a room changes as more and more acoustic damping is added to the room.
In Post #8 we have a Australian who does Podcasting in his home studio. So, he doesn't really need broadband damping. He simply needs to soften echo in the Voice range. In his case a few simple 25mm (1 inch) panels were sufficient to give him what he needed. You can also here the room before and after.
Also note the REW (Room EQ Wizard) Software. This is FREE Software for testing room acoustics. There are a few videos on YouTube, typically in THREE parts, I've linked to the first part of a series in Post #15. Best to click on the [YouTube] link on the bottom right of the video screen. That will open the video in YouTube rather than play embedded. Then you can find the other two parts of the video series on YouTube.
Hopefully that will give you the basics to understand Room Acoustics.
Steve/bluewizard
Then it comes to acoustics, there are three key points.
Corners - Bass tends to collect in the corners, you can soften the excess bass in a room with low cost corner traps. These can be foam or you can build your own.
First Reflections points - This would be a long the side walls where the sound first hit the wall and reflects toward the user. Sit in your prime listening spot and have someone move along the side walls with a mirror. When you can see the speaker in the mirror, that is the point of first reflection. Here you simply need a basic Acoustic Panel or some convoluted/wedge/pyramide foam panels.
The Rear Wall - and by that, I mean the wall opposite the speaker, not the wall behind them. In my case, that walls is the opening in an open floor plan Kitchen/Living room, so the things I will discuss are less critical. On the far wall you probably want a blend of absorption and diffusion. Perhaps a 2'x2' Diffusion panel flanked by TWO 2'x2' Absorption panels.
Here us a link to one of my posts in another forum about Room Acoustics in general.
Primer: Acoustics - Absorption & Diffusion | AVForums.com - UK Online
In Post #2 you can hear how a room changes as more and more acoustic damping is added to the room.
In Post #8 we have a Australian who does Podcasting in his home studio. So, he doesn't really need broadband damping. He simply needs to soften echo in the Voice range. In his case a few simple 25mm (1 inch) panels were sufficient to give him what he needed. You can also here the room before and after.
Also note the REW (Room EQ Wizard) Software. This is FREE Software for testing room acoustics. There are a few videos on YouTube, typically in THREE parts, I've linked to the first part of a series in Post #15. Best to click on the [YouTube] link on the bottom right of the video screen. That will open the video in YouTube rather than play embedded. Then you can find the other two parts of the video series on YouTube.
Hopefully that will give you the basics to understand Room Acoustics.
Steve/bluewizard
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"How much can room acoustics and speaker placement/tuning effect the midrange? significantly? Or something only the ones with the keenest ears can hear? "
You are asking a complex question that I can only answer within the realm of my own experience.
I have a small room, about 17ft x 16ft, but it is open floorplan into a kitchen through an open half wall made of open upper and lower cupboards.
Yamaha RX-797 + Diamond 9.6 Stereo System - YouTube
Keep in mind, I plead poverty. This is a good system within what I was able to afford, but I make no claim that it is a great system. Briefly I turn the camera a show they half wall which is open in the middle between the cupboard, and extends about 1/3rd of the way across the room. I have fairly large speaker, but the open floorplan work very much in my favor.
I had some JBL Venue Stadium speakers with 2x 8" drivers each in a 3.5-way configuration. But the JBL were on the bass heavy side. Best guess they needed 2 feet behind them to sound good. Unfortunately in a 17 foot living room, that addition 2 feet minimum was out of the question. But midrange was terrible on these speaker. I did the best I could on placement, then at the suggestion of others plugged the rear port. That change not only the radiation of rear port sound, but change the bass profile of the speakers. It at least made them listenable.
My reasonable and logical conclusion, excess bass caused by too close speaker placement muddies the midrange. When my new Diamond 9.6 speakers arrive, which were less bass dominate though still rear ported, they were very happy with only 12" behind them. Though ideally, I would like to push that out to 18".
So, YES, mostly due to timing errors, excess bass does muddy the midrange.
Most reflections in a room, at least reflections that we can control, are in the mid and high range. In a small room the echo delays are very small, but they can have a tendency to blur the midrange. Because the frequencies and the time delays are so short, it is very easy for reflections to interfere with the main sound.
You can see that in the videos I linked to in my other post. There are clear examples of room large and small where a slight echo is heard, and improved on with simple basic acoustic treatments.
To make true Bass Traps, to truly dampen reflected bass, takes pretty deep traps.
Even with Diffusers, the deeper the Diffuser, the deeper the frequencies it will effect.
Again, go to the link I provided in my other post, and read the information and watch some of the video to get a general sense of what it takes to control room reflections.
Keep in mind, a bit of reflection gives a room some dynamics and gives life to the music, you don't want to kill every reflection, just soften the primary reflections.
Steve/bluewizard
You are asking a complex question that I can only answer within the realm of my own experience.
I have a small room, about 17ft x 16ft, but it is open floorplan into a kitchen through an open half wall made of open upper and lower cupboards.
Yamaha RX-797 + Diamond 9.6 Stereo System - YouTube
Keep in mind, I plead poverty. This is a good system within what I was able to afford, but I make no claim that it is a great system. Briefly I turn the camera a show they half wall which is open in the middle between the cupboard, and extends about 1/3rd of the way across the room. I have fairly large speaker, but the open floorplan work very much in my favor.
I had some JBL Venue Stadium speakers with 2x 8" drivers each in a 3.5-way configuration. But the JBL were on the bass heavy side. Best guess they needed 2 feet behind them to sound good. Unfortunately in a 17 foot living room, that addition 2 feet minimum was out of the question. But midrange was terrible on these speaker. I did the best I could on placement, then at the suggestion of others plugged the rear port. That change not only the radiation of rear port sound, but change the bass profile of the speakers. It at least made them listenable.
My reasonable and logical conclusion, excess bass caused by too close speaker placement muddies the midrange. When my new Diamond 9.6 speakers arrive, which were less bass dominate though still rear ported, they were very happy with only 12" behind them. Though ideally, I would like to push that out to 18".
So, YES, mostly due to timing errors, excess bass does muddy the midrange.
Most reflections in a room, at least reflections that we can control, are in the mid and high range. In a small room the echo delays are very small, but they can have a tendency to blur the midrange. Because the frequencies and the time delays are so short, it is very easy for reflections to interfere with the main sound.
You can see that in the videos I linked to in my other post. There are clear examples of room large and small where a slight echo is heard, and improved on with simple basic acoustic treatments.
To make true Bass Traps, to truly dampen reflected bass, takes pretty deep traps.
Even with Diffusers, the deeper the Diffuser, the deeper the frequencies it will effect.
Again, go to the link I provided in my other post, and read the information and watch some of the video to get a general sense of what it takes to control room reflections.
Keep in mind, a bit of reflection gives a room some dynamics and gives life to the music, you don't want to kill every reflection, just soften the primary reflections.
Steve/bluewizard
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That is very intuitive, so I see where you're coming from. The problem is that a loudspeaker obviously does not just pump out soundwaves of individual frequencies in succession (unless you're doing a sweep obviously). When you're listening to a set of speakers play a sax, standup bass, female vocalist, and a drum set, you are hearing a single complex signal. It of course has to be single as you only have a single input at one point in your stereo. That signal therefore is comprised of frequency components from all of the above instruments and voices smashed into one, and it's your speaker's job therefore to move in such a way that you recreate the illusion of them all being separate.Wise words, I am still learning, although I've been messing with audio for a few years now
I wasn't aware that a 2-way can sound just as good as a 3-way when both are designed properly. I always assumed having more speakers=more frequencies can be produced at the same time due to a lighter load on each speaker. Obviously I do understand a cheap 3-way will be worse than a high quality 2-way, I just misunderstandingly hoped that adding a mid range would improve my sound similar to how adding a subwoofer improves low end. I hope you can understand my misinformation
If you have a driver that can easily recreate 5kHz down to 60Hz information, then that driver will be able to play any combination of those frequencies. A 2-way design then would suit this system just fine. If, however, that driver works well from 60 to 1k, then starts breaking up above that, you'll want to add another driver in there to make it a 3-way. This does not mean, however, that the 3-way system has in any way an easier job or is reproducing more frequency content. It simply means that each driver is only reproducing a smaller range of frequencies which it works best in. If you have a midwoofer that can do upper midrange fine, then a 3-way gets you nothing (we're talking ideally here, there are of course reasons why this does not always apply).
I guess to sum up, adding a subwoofer augments your sound because it's adding to something that your speakers aren't incapable of providing in a major way. This is very different than adding a midrange to an already full-range speaker because the speaker already is reproducing the midrange well. It's doubly difficult because getting two drivers to cross over such that they sound as one unit is tough. Making three drivers do that is even harder to design for from the get go, so if you simply add a third driver in the middle, I can only see the system getting worse as the previous 2-way was meant to work full range alone.
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Very intelligent reply, thank you. You explained to me the root of my misconception, I always assumed a speaker cone moved at a certain pace and created a certain frequency. My line of thinking was that a speaker is like a subwoofer which plays a note at most 2 notes at once not various combinations of many notes, which is why I couldn't ever understand how a two way with quality drivers can sound the same or better than a three way with quality drivers. My audio experience is heavily based on subwoofers and car audio, so I am quite oblivious to the speaker world, but I am more than willing to learn.
Thank you for all the information I have much to research and learn, I appreciate you providing me a good start.
My room is actually very similar to your and has a near identical cutout into the kitchen as you described, my speakers are on the wider side of the wall
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