I am getting close to starting my first 2way design project. I will be using either an RS28F/A or HDS tweeter with a miniDSP/classD-amp for custom eq/crossover.
Target is a small-box near-field monitor (1-1.2m listening distance, ~80db) for my music workstation.
I have modeled all of these mid-woofers in unibox and they all seem to fit well into my 10-16L box target range with a -3db under 50hz and a -6db point in the 40's. My goal is a clean/detailed midrange, very flat response 15k down to 50hz, good bass at low volume levels (sealed box?). I will add a subwoofer for the 30-40hz range when I need it.
I am very close to choosing the Usher 8948a but they seem to be perpetually out-of-stock at parts-express. So I am starting to consider my options again.
How much would I loose going to a cheaper SB15 or SB17? Would I eventually feel disappointed and want to upgrade to one of the others on this list?
How close is the Usher 8945a to the 8948a?
Anyone compare the Usher vs Satori vs Scanspeak 15W/8530K Revelator? I understand these are all excellent midwoofs. How much is gained by going up to the Satori or Revelator from the Usher?
what about the Vifa NE180-04? (tests here) Not so sure about them. I know they are good, but the NE180 is almost the same price as the satori which looks a lot better on the tests.
I understand this is covering a large range of price points and a mix of 5" and 7" drivers, but they all fit into my target, just different price/performance levels. I have read the zaph, mark-k, and other measurements on these drivers.
thanks jessica
Target is a small-box near-field monitor (1-1.2m listening distance, ~80db) for my music workstation.
I have modeled all of these mid-woofers in unibox and they all seem to fit well into my 10-16L box target range with a -3db under 50hz and a -6db point in the 40's. My goal is a clean/detailed midrange, very flat response 15k down to 50hz, good bass at low volume levels (sealed box?). I will add a subwoofer for the 30-40hz range when I need it.
I am very close to choosing the Usher 8948a but they seem to be perpetually out-of-stock at parts-express. So I am starting to consider my options again.
How much would I loose going to a cheaper SB15 or SB17? Would I eventually feel disappointed and want to upgrade to one of the others on this list?
How close is the Usher 8945a to the 8948a?
Anyone compare the Usher vs Satori vs Scanspeak 15W/8530K Revelator? I understand these are all excellent midwoofs. How much is gained by going up to the Satori or Revelator from the Usher?
what about the Vifa NE180-04? (tests here) Not so sure about them. I know they are good, but the NE180 is almost the same price as the satori which looks a lot better on the tests.
I understand this is covering a large range of price points and a mix of 5" and 7" drivers, but they all fit into my target, just different price/performance levels. I have read the zaph, mark-k, and other measurements on these drivers.
thanks jessica
16l is a bit small for some of those drivers (that includes the Usher and Satori), and from the economic point-of-view, you might want to avoid the high-cost units for your very first project. I would choose something from the affordable but high-quality SB line with Vas < 35 l. SB17NAC35-4 in particular looks very interesting. Its relatively new and has not been used in any featured builds on the various US forums.
thanks. my thinking on the higher end driver was that this might be my one and only project, maybe play with different tweeter options, baffle designs, but keep the same woofer/box. I really don't have the space (tokyo apartment) to have multiple speakers or stock pile large drivers. It might also be difficult to re-sell drivers here if I decide to upgrade. I have $500 budget for driver, so I don't need to economize. Also shipping to japan is usually on the order of $70-90 dollars, so the cheap drivers are not really so cheap for me.
I also understand the general advice on doing a previous design first, but my main motivation is to have the dsp and several eq/crossover profiles. If I would do a previous-design I would probably do Jeff B's Kairos or Troels Ellam FLEX. I already have some Focal studio monitor so this will be my alternate/second pair and needs to be very high quality. I am targeting the Focal Solo6be / PSI A17m level.
I already have an FF105wk DIY which is working very good (with a little eq to flatten it out) as an auratone style monitor.
I think my box modeling is ok. There are also many previous designed kits using these drivers in small boxes: (internal volume)
Jeff B's piccolo SB15 7.5L
Jeff B's mandolin SB17 15L
Jeff B's Kairos Satori MW16 16L
Troels Ellam FLEX 15W/8530-K00 12L
Mark K's Usher sealed 2way 8945a 7L
And the unibox agrees with all these designs, so I trust unibox for my models.
I am thinking that the Satori might be my best option actually. Plus I can fall back onto the Kairos design if I totally fail.
I also understand the general advice on doing a previous design first, but my main motivation is to have the dsp and several eq/crossover profiles. If I would do a previous-design I would probably do Jeff B's Kairos or Troels Ellam FLEX. I already have some Focal studio monitor so this will be my alternate/second pair and needs to be very high quality. I am targeting the Focal Solo6be / PSI A17m level.
I already have an FF105wk DIY which is working very good (with a little eq to flatten it out) as an auratone style monitor.
I think my box modeling is ok. There are also many previous designed kits using these drivers in small boxes: (internal volume)
Jeff B's piccolo SB15 7.5L
Jeff B's mandolin SB17 15L
Jeff B's Kairos Satori MW16 16L
Troels Ellam FLEX 15W/8530-K00 12L
Mark K's Usher sealed 2way 8945a 7L
And the unibox agrees with all these designs, so I trust unibox for my models.
I am thinking that the Satori might be my best option actually. Plus I can fall back onto the Kairos design if I totally fail.
You certainly don't put emphasis on low-end response. In various cases, the designers of these kits make explicit mention of the limited bass response, suitability for pairing with a subwoofer, and in the case of the Ellam, the motivation as the top of a 3-way. These designs are not exploiting the low-end potential of the various drivers. If you must use 15l, then the 8530 (which has a Vas suitable for a 15l cab) is a great choice. Unfortunately, two of these drivers, plus tax and shipping, is going to exhaust your driver budget. Do you already have the tweeters?
Your vent length will be about a foot (standard modeling says 12.3") and you will have an awful pipe resonance. For the Satori you really want a larger enclosure.
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Go with satori, you wont regret it. Its my best speakers so far.
Build the Kairos or Joachim Gerhard's monitor for the easy way (satori tweeters, which i think its superb also).
Actually tweeters that are in the same league of Satori would be Scan D3004 or Raal 70-10.
What amp do you have now? If it can play 4ohm easily, then go with Satori 4ohm to get better sensitivity.
Build the Kairos or Joachim Gerhard's monitor for the easy way (satori tweeters, which i think its superb also).
Actually tweeters that are in the same league of Satori would be Scan D3004 or Raal 70-10.
What amp do you have now? If it can play 4ohm easily, then go with Satori 4ohm to get better sensitivity.
does the Kairos design use the 8ohm or 4ohm Satori midwoof?
Right now I am planning to use a pair pf TI TPA3116 classD chip amps (4channels total). But I might consider going to hypex modules in the future. miniDSP arrived today so I have my full dsp/amp parts. will build the electronics in the next weeks and try them with my FF105wk speakers.
Yeah I am really leaning toward the Satori right now. I could even do the satori in a sealed box and do some extended BSC to flatten out the bass and give up a little max SPL.
I do have a nice studio grade subwoofer now (Yamaha SW10 studio) which is why I am focusing on these sorts of designs. Plus living in a Tokyo apartment building means I have to manage my bass for the neighbors. I have found that 50hz is fine, but turning on the subwoofer can only happen on weekend afternoons.
Right now I am planning to use a pair pf TI TPA3116 classD chip amps (4channels total). But I might consider going to hypex modules in the future. miniDSP arrived today so I have my full dsp/amp parts. will build the electronics in the next weeks and try them with my FF105wk speakers.
Yeah I am really leaning toward the Satori right now. I could even do the satori in a sealed box and do some extended BSC to flatten out the bass and give up a little max SPL.
I do have a nice studio grade subwoofer now (Yamaha SW10 studio) which is why I am focusing on these sorts of designs. Plus living in a Tokyo apartment building means I have to manage my bass for the neighbors. I have found that 50hz is fine, but turning on the subwoofer can only happen on weekend afternoons.
Invite your neighbors over for drinks and listening to music to ease tension. Seriously, you should have said earlier you plan to pair with sub. In that case Kairos is a good choice, and you can plug the port per Jeff's explanation in the write-up. But honestly, if you allow yourself 25l you can add significant low-end to the Kairos AND suppress the moderate pipe-resonance that is inherent to that design. Just maintain Jeff's driver spacing and baffle angle as required for the phase overlap that makes the Kairos such an excellent design.
jcandy, thanks so much for all your feedback! Sorry I mentioned the subwoofer in my first post, but it was a very short sentence in my 2nd paragraph so it was easy to miss. actually everyone thank you.
I have to admit that the satori in a 25L sealed box does look very good. Almost critically damped (qtc 0.445 for 4ohm, 0.534 for 8ohm). But this is just very big for my near-field application.... unless I went for a mini-tower sealed-box approach. hmmm. I could probably do something with internal dimensions of 600 x 190 x 220 mm (H W D). That might work?
I have also always wanted to try an aperiodic tuned enclosure. You can't find them commercially anymore. I wonder if I could get a 12L or 14L box to look like a 25L with the right aperiodic tuning?
OK I am 98% convinced on the Satori MW16. Still not sure if I should go for 8ohm or 4ohm. They model quite differently in unibox. Both should be ok for my TPA3116 classD amps (rated for 50watts 4ohm).
Has anyone reverse-engineered the kairos crossover into a miniDSP profile? Jeff published all his crossover plots so should be possible to duplicate it with DSP (my plan).
One nice thing about the DSP is that I can fine tune the time-alignment with time-delay, so I can get the kairos / ellam-flex crossover (2nd order, transient perfect, time-aligned) with either a flat baffle or a rear-mounted tweeter.
I have to admit that the satori in a 25L sealed box does look very good. Almost critically damped (qtc 0.445 for 4ohm, 0.534 for 8ohm). But this is just very big for my near-field application.... unless I went for a mini-tower sealed-box approach. hmmm. I could probably do something with internal dimensions of 600 x 190 x 220 mm (H W D). That might work?
I have also always wanted to try an aperiodic tuned enclosure. You can't find them commercially anymore. I wonder if I could get a 12L or 14L box to look like a 25L with the right aperiodic tuning?
OK I am 98% convinced on the Satori MW16. Still not sure if I should go for 8ohm or 4ohm. They model quite differently in unibox. Both should be ok for my TPA3116 classD amps (rated for 50watts 4ohm).
Has anyone reverse-engineered the kairos crossover into a miniDSP profile? Jeff published all his crossover plots so should be possible to duplicate it with DSP (my plan).
One nice thing about the DSP is that I can fine tune the time-alignment with time-delay, so I can get the kairos / ellam-flex crossover (2nd order, transient perfect, time-aligned) with either a flat baffle or a rear-mounted tweeter.
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well I have already started down the miniDSP path so I will finish the project this way. And my motivation for starting a project was to work with a DSP based crossover/eq.
But yeah I would have to build both ways to believe this. Too many factors at play here for me to believe that all passive builds with any amp are better than all DSP active builds. I have heard both excellent passive and excellent DSP based studio monitors so I am certain it is based on implementation not the underlying technological method used. Two of the most transparent studio monitor in professional use today is the Barefoot MM27, and Neuman KH310 which are both active DSP based monitor.
Barefoot Sound MicroMain 27
Neumann KH310A
Of course they might not use the same DSP/ADC/DAC chips as the miniDSP.
Well lets just see how I get on with my miniDSP and TPA3116 amps. There are other DSP chips out there if I believe the ADAU1701 chip in the miniDSP is the limiting factor.
But yeah I would have to build both ways to believe this. Too many factors at play here for me to believe that all passive builds with any amp are better than all DSP active builds. I have heard both excellent passive and excellent DSP based studio monitors so I am certain it is based on implementation not the underlying technological method used. Two of the most transparent studio monitor in professional use today is the Barefoot MM27, and Neuman KH310 which are both active DSP based monitor.
Barefoot Sound MicroMain 27
Neumann KH310A
Of course they might not use the same DSP/ADC/DAC chips as the miniDSP.
Well lets just see how I get on with my miniDSP and TPA3116 amps. There are other DSP chips out there if I believe the ADAU1701 chip in the miniDSP is the limiting factor.
well cool!! Then I think I am sold on the Satori. It will not be the limiting factor in my build.
The barefoot MM27 uses what appears to be a vifa ne149 midwoofers and probably Scanspeak illuminator R3004/602010 tweeter (maybe custom versions, but maybe standard). Also uses hypex amps along with some sort of DSP chip. Barefoot Sound MicroMain27
The barefoot MM27 uses what appears to be a vifa ne149 midwoofers and probably Scanspeak illuminator R3004/602010 tweeter (maybe custom versions, but maybe standard). Also uses hypex amps along with some sort of DSP chip. Barefoot Sound MicroMain27
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scan D2608/9130 has been on my list, also the dayton RS28F/A. Unfortunately I have not heard either of these tweeters. I have read that the RS28 can also go really low (jim holtz Finalists with the RS28F, and Mark K's RS225/RS28a design). I am tempted to get some RS28F to start with and see how it goes. If they are too bright for me I can eq down the top end.
There is a shop in akihabara which sells DIY speakers. I think they have the RS28A and D2608 in stock, and some of the D3004 versions. I could go there and listen to them without crossover on a baffle. But I am not sure how much that will tell me. They don't carry SB acoustics though.
I will probably place an order with meniscus soon. Satori MW16 + tweet (RS28F?)
Also the Trans Lab, N26C that meniscus has on special also look very interesting.
There is a shop in akihabara which sells DIY speakers. I think they have the RS28A and D2608 in stock, and some of the D3004 versions. I could go there and listen to them without crossover on a baffle. But I am not sure how much that will tell me. They don't carry SB acoustics though.
I will probably place an order with meniscus soon. Satori MW16 + tweet (RS28F?)
Also the Trans Lab, N26C that meniscus has on special also look very interesting.
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the D2608 HDS was my top pick until I started reading up on the RS28 and asked a few people. There seems to just as many who prefer the D2608 as the RS28. Both seem to be in the top tier.
Interesting thread over here where both CurtC and JeffB chimed in
RS28F / Peerless HDS (Now D2608/9130) Tweeters...
The RS28F tested really well by Mark K
Tweeter group 6
and at least in his tests the RS28F looks better at 1K than the D2608 HDS. I am sure both are excellent.
Interesting thread over here where both CurtC and JeffB chimed in
RS28F / Peerless HDS (Now D2608/9130) Tweeters...
The RS28F tested really well by Mark K
Tweeter group 6
and at least in his tests the RS28F looks better at 1K than the D2608 HDS. I am sure both are excellent.
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