The graphs show a very well behaved polar response for a direct forward radiator, with a smooth transition.. although you will have to pay attention to the placement in the room. A typical issue with such speakers.
For an outdoor PA speaker though, it's maybe a little beamy. Huh? If I wanted to place those on either side of the stage, for a bluegrass show, as I used to do, I'd set them up to support the sound at the 10th row and backwards. But for the front rows, there might be a hole in the center unless the speakers are placed reasonably close... say 25 feet from each other and toed in a little bit. I might even resort to two speakers per side... one shooting ahead and one toed in.
(1) The sound of Maggies is pretty much impervious of the side walls. Just place them four feet from the back walls, angle them a little inwards, give them 100 watts of clean power and sit back. It's the sound of planars... if only the Quads could play that loud, I would have them. I might also have Acoustats, but maintenance is impossible.. and Martin Logan has a dynamic woofer -although the Neolith is a fanta$tic sounding unit.
(2) The AE1 will play quite loud, I used to biamp them with two ARC D70-II and they'd play ROCK LOUD. Sure, they lack deep bass, but for that I got a pair of Entec woofers. - with no crossover on the AE1s. And, it's amazing to hear precise soundstage in a rock record at loud level. Dynamics? Listen to the Pretenders... I forget the song now.. .where the band is completely silent and the voice goes " 3, 2 , 1" and then they unleash a LOUD torrent of music.. that's dynamics.. The AE1s do that. Rock guitars wailing at LOUD levels with not a hint of strain... while the drum kit fill the room with sound and the voices stay in place and clear.
(3) I am not anti digital, don't accuse me of things you know nothing about me... I just want to keep things simple. Heck, I was already working on internetworking distribution of music and video over IP on DSL, cable and satellite in the 90s -before the Internet. Doing R&D on stuff like that since the 80s. So, I believe in keeping things as simple as possible, and to me, digitizing the signal to overcome the limitations of a speaker is a non starter.
(4) Oh, 125db.... A non starter for me. My son used to have a garage band... three guitars, keyboards and drums. Stacks of Marshall tube amps, an 8 channel mixer with three vocal mikes. When the drum got going, that is DYNAMIC range that no speaker can hope to reach... well, maybe the Dead's Wall Of Sound... but 125db is way too loud. That's why I have absolutely no need or want for 125db. Instead, what I have a need for is a VERY LOW NOISE FLOOR... when the noise floor is very low, then you can achieve incredible dynamic range with peaks of 110 db, perhaps.
(5) I recommend that you all take a listen to an F4 or SIT amp. Add a very low noise preamp to it... trust me, you won't even need 125db... the paradigm changes then, you hear the music at much lower levels... Even orchestral... in our local hall, a full symphony, from our seats at middle of the row L, never gets 125 db...
(6) Again, unless you want an audio system to play very loud movies or you need the blow the windows on the 1812 cannons. I don't do either, hence, I don't need PA speakers in my house.
(7) BTW, for a Home Theater application, I do prefer direct front radiators. with a reasonable wide dispersion They don't make their own soundstage as planars, dipoles or bipoles. And with wide dispersion the recorded soundstage is maintained across the width of the listening room ( where the couch is ).
Have fun.
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I do agree with that... sort of. In a large room, almost by definition, you need a PA system.
My HT is 14x23, living room is 14x20.. with 8 foot ceilings and openings to the sides, well controlled... so the rooms sound quite good with no acoustic standing waves. Audiophile systems sound quite good in those rooms.
If I had a larger room.. say something like 20 x 35 x 14 then I would have to rethink my choice... or my desired loudness.
Hi thanks a lot
Then let's select a 3" with a powerful motor
I am leaning towards a 2 ways solution willing to give up the very low and the very high range
From 50 to 14k would be enough
So a 3 or 4" inch above a high quality 12" could work just fine
I think that 12 is better than 10" for a strong bass
The problem is the ones with powerful motors are all optimized to try to get BASS out of them, so the mass corner is still too low if you’re trying to horn load. No one ever seems to make pure midranges anymore, and that’s what’s needed. I still have a stash of 12 of the old Audax 5-1/4‘s that WERE optimized as pure mids. Earmarked for a system I still haven’t gotten to yet. It was the last 92dB/W 5” ever made, at least as hi fi drivers go. Most of them struggle to get to 85 dB these days, because no one makes monkey coffins that NEED something like this. My thought was a stack of those, flanking a 7” PA ribbon, above a pair of 15’s. An improvement for my current larger shop system, which was a 2x15 3 way originally used for smaller events and decommissioned. The kind of system that, with some sort of monster infra-sub, would make a killer HT system. The current version gets to nightclub volume clean as a whistle in my shop with 200 watts per channel all tube. I don’t run the big boys very often. But sometimes you just have to party and the bookshelf speakers don’t cut it.
For my next project I'm shooting at a 95dB/1W/1m with enough cone surface to keep distortion very low. I'm still undecided between CD/horn vs AMT and dual 6.5" vs 1x 10" mid. Bass will be handled by dual 15" sealed pro woofers.
Is this PA? With PA I understand buying finished/active speakers that are meant for events/parties. But OTOH there must be a difference between a cheap Behringer and the best RCF/JBL/EV... ?
Is this PA? With PA I understand buying finished/active speakers that are meant for events/parties. But OTOH there must be a difference between a cheap Behringer and the best RCF/JBL/EV... ?
In the last edition of the German "Hobby HIFI" magazine is a low-midrange horn that solves the usual problem of price sensitive HIFI PA systems, the 15" bass not reaching high enough and the compression drivers distortion at it's low end.
Mr. Timmermann build a low priced horn to fill that gap. This is in fact something I have been looking for a long time, as really good two way PA systems for HIFI need very expensive compression drivers for high quality reproduction.
I'm waiting for the second part of the mag.
Mr. Timmermann build a low priced horn to fill that gap. This is in fact something I have been looking for a long time, as really good two way PA systems for HIFI need very expensive compression drivers for high quality reproduction.
I'm waiting for the second part of the mag.
This thread is "Anyone using a PA system for home theater?"...
There is also a difference between the cheapest and best RCF/JBL/EV.
Since Behringer's Music Group/Tribe acquired Turbosound and Tannoy, they don't seem to try to advance the Behringer brand speakers as much, leaving a bit more market separation.
Hi ! i am sure this will lead to some IMD when the AE1s are asked to produce mid and powerful low frequencies
i will experiment a high pass filter with different cut frequencies
Like one twice the fs of the woofer as a start ?
when the woofer is relieved of the task of producing the low frequencies, the rest certainly reproduces it with lower distortion
A friend and I did some tests The woofer and the mid must absolutely be separated Both electrically and mechanically
Do you mean that in the crossover region some parameters go bad ? like an increase of distortion or a decrease of dispersion ?
i guess that these two parameters are taken into account seriously when a PA system is designed in order to provide a very low distortion and constant directivity from bass to high Maybe leaving the very low bass out But life is often a compromise
To be more practical at an audio fair i had the opportunity to listen this track recorded on a Telarc CD from a Focal system using the EVM Grand Utopia
i was sincerely moved Amazing 😍
Could a PA system provide a similar sensation ? 😵
maybe a much lower price 🤔
See, if you want a Focal Utopia, the cheapest and only way is to buy one. You should think over your attitude concerning any HIFI stuff.
It is not all about better and worse or how to get the sound of XY, but not pay the full price. If all you care about is how to get something cheap and cheaper, you will not get anywhere.
Find your own, matching way to HIFI, however it will look like, don't search for something unobtainable for you.
This hobby will cost you money, if you don't have any, better buy a fishing rod and get happy listening to the waves.
Even if, one day after hitting the Jackpot in the lottery, your system will cost 250.000$, there will be someone with a better system, who spend twice or 5 times that much.
I can tell you from experience, if you learn how to do things right and where not to spend money, you can have an excellent system for less than 1000€.
A nice two way with a well thought out, active sub, can give you a near life like reproduction at impressive SPL. You just have to make the right decisions.
How? Don't spent any money on boutique crossover parts, cables, dac's or streamer stuff. All you need is a CD player (or PC), an active crossover and some amps. You will have most of that or find it dead cheap on eBay. You can not find 5% better sound in wasting even huge money on these parts. (An ugly secret, don't tell anyone else!)
The only part that will dramatically change the "sound", is the speaker.
Best is a set of two way's and one or two subs. Spend 70% of your money on the speaker kit. Don't cut corners on the chassis. If you want loud, don't go for less than 6.5” mid woofer or a 5” MTM. Anything smaller than 10" is no sub chassis.
Get a kit and don't change anything! Only design your own speaker when you have a lot of experience, that much that only very few people have.
If you only have a 12 square meter listening room, better get head phones.
It is not all about better and worse or how to get the sound of XY, but not pay the full price. If all you care about is how to get something cheap and cheaper, you will not get anywhere.
Find your own, matching way to HIFI, however it will look like, don't search for something unobtainable for you.
This hobby will cost you money, if you don't have any, better buy a fishing rod and get happy listening to the waves.
Even if, one day after hitting the Jackpot in the lottery, your system will cost 250.000$, there will be someone with a better system, who spend twice or 5 times that much.
I can tell you from experience, if you learn how to do things right and where not to spend money, you can have an excellent system for less than 1000€.
A nice two way with a well thought out, active sub, can give you a near life like reproduction at impressive SPL. You just have to make the right decisions.
How? Don't spent any money on boutique crossover parts, cables, dac's or streamer stuff. All you need is a CD player (or PC), an active crossover and some amps. You will have most of that or find it dead cheap on eBay. You can not find 5% better sound in wasting even huge money on these parts. (An ugly secret, don't tell anyone else!)
The only part that will dramatically change the "sound", is the speaker.
Best is a set of two way's and one or two subs. Spend 70% of your money on the speaker kit. Don't cut corners on the chassis. If you want loud, don't go for less than 6.5” mid woofer or a 5” MTM. Anything smaller than 10" is no sub chassis.
Get a kit and don't change anything! Only design your own speaker when you have a lot of experience, that much that only very few people have.
If you only have a 12 square meter listening room, better get head phones.
With a PA two way, the bass has to be large, which disqualifies it for anything above 400 Hz if not very expensive. If you don't want to spend a fortune, a mid-high horn will not run clean at less than 1.500 Hz (don't beat me on +- 100 Hz).
There are some rare chassis that can do that in HIFI quality, but not on the cheap side. On the other hand, there are quite some low cost driver that can play in fantastic quality, if limited to their clean region. So you need something to fill that gap and can save huge on basic components.
What makes it a 3-way. This is the price to pay if you want to save money...
There are some rare chassis that can do that in HIFI quality, but not on the cheap side. On the other hand, there are quite some low cost driver that can play in fantastic quality, if limited to their clean region. So you need something to fill that gap and can save huge on basic components.
What makes it a 3-way. This is the price to pay if you want to save money...
This is why the " loudness" control should be on every system.
My tube preamp plays flat to 0.2 dB controls centered loudness off. It is not played there often.
My tube preamp plays flat to 0.2 dB controls centered loudness off. It is not played there often.
I grew up with the myth of the so-called giant killers, usually cheap products with performances on par with more expensive products
for example, I prefer a 30 euro watch that is more precise than a three thousand euro one
Because its function is to measure time
I'm not a fetishist
I don't like to show expensive things to other people
This doesn't make me feel better
I'm only interested in performance
for example, I prefer a 30 euro watch that is more precise than a three thousand euro one
Because its function is to measure time
I'm not a fetishist
I don't like to show expensive things to other people
This doesn't make me feel better
I'm only interested in performance
Thank you very much
That's the main question
2 ways can be enough to cover 40 to 15k ?
I begin to think that 3 ways are needed and I don't like the idea
I would much more prefer a 2 ways solution
I am watching all videos about Pa systems with a bass and a line array above
I love their look immensely
Then the next question is how much range send to the head speaker
I.e. the crossover point between bass and mid
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You can go active and use a calibrated mic to match them or build a kit. Someone that is asking the kind of questions you do, is years away from building his own passive designs. Sorry if that may hurt, but you will profit from this advice. Learning from ones owns mistakes needs too much time and money in the HIFI and PA area. Compare it from building your own car from scratch. Your life will be not long enough to ever ride it legally on a road. If you take a working car, learn how to repair and modify it, you will get much further.
So build some kit 100% as stated. You will get an instant reward of a working speaker that prevents you from adjusting your ears to sick response curves of stupid self designed, ill camels. Look how it is done right, maybe make some small modifications later, but first understand what you do. In the past we had to buy expensive books and magazines, with no way to measure in private. You have the internet, something many here did not have. Use it. Not only the colorful pictures and video. Read some dry basics too. That is where the knowledge is hidden. Get a microphone. The most important, powerful tool beside the resistor to measure TSP parameter.
See, if you ever wondered why in real life some guys are on the top in a workshop or company, it is the knowledge of theory that puts them there. You are at early apprentice level. Don't try to run the shop...
So build some kit 100% as stated. You will get an instant reward of a working speaker that prevents you from adjusting your ears to sick response curves of stupid self designed, ill camels. Look how it is done right, maybe make some small modifications later, but first understand what you do. In the past we had to buy expensive books and magazines, with no way to measure in private. You have the internet, something many here did not have. Use it. Not only the colorful pictures and video. Read some dry basics too. That is where the knowledge is hidden. Get a microphone. The most important, powerful tool beside the resistor to measure TSP parameter.
See, if you ever wondered why in real life some guys are on the top in a workshop or company, it is the knowledge of theory that puts them there. You are at early apprentice level. Don't try to run the shop...
You got to get dreaming and reality separated.
You can build a low priced HIFI speaker from PA parts, but don't expect it to do PA duty. If it is for HIFI, SPL will be limited.
If you match the parts for PA service, they will have the disadvantage I told you about.
That ist like using a car: Drive it like an idiot and you will have huge gas consumption and great wear, paying a heavy price, even loose all in an accident. Use it carefully, with defensive, leagal driving style, you will have low consumption, hardly any wear and stay accident free. Once, when you may get a drivers license, you may understand...
So when you want a PA 2-way that is loud and clean, be prepared to spend big.
You can build a low priced HIFI speaker from PA parts, but don't expect it to do PA duty. If it is for HIFI, SPL will be limited.
If you match the parts for PA service, they will have the disadvantage I told you about.
That ist like using a car: Drive it like an idiot and you will have huge gas consumption and great wear, paying a heavy price, even loose all in an accident. Use it carefully, with defensive, leagal driving style, you will have low consumption, hardly any wear and stay accident free. Once, when you may get a drivers license, you may understand...
So when you want a PA 2-way that is loud and clean, be prepared to spend big.
@ginetto61, you should just see this active thread on the same page
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...t-2-way-pa-speaker.414957/page-5#post-7798987
This is what it takes to build a high performance 2 way that’s hi-fi and high SPL capable. Cheaper than full retail, but not cheap. The build is pretty nice.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...t-2-way-pa-speaker.414957/page-5#post-7798987
This is what it takes to build a high performance 2 way that’s hi-fi and high SPL capable. Cheaper than full retail, but not cheap. The build is pretty nice.
I meant building a mixed pro/consumer loudspeaker with linear FR, low distortion, high SPL and dynamic range. Is that Hi-Fi or PA?
My bedroom AV wall consists of 3x Visaton PA 110 H and dual RCF LF18N405 in LLT tuned @ 13Hz for sub. The bass and treble of the in-wall PA 110 H need quite a bit of room correction but after that the sound is very detailed and dynamic.
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Sorry but the comparison is weird
A car is not a speaker
You are just comparing apples and oranges
This adds only confusion
For me it's quite simple
If you go to a movie theater you will find PA systems
So PA systems is the right way to playback soundtracks
And maybe even normal music
This said my choice would be a sub plus line array
But I read some negative opinions about this solution very popular these days
It's the size that blocks me
I can't stand big boxes Sub aside of course
I like a slim tower above a sub
But I read some negative opinions
A Big midrange is needed for the best transition from the sub
Maybe a MTM above a sub ?
A head similar to a center channel?