Hello All,
I’ve been doing a lot of reading on the forum the last few weeks, and I first want to thank all the contributors for the wealth of knowledge here. Amazing online community!
I got a pair of blumenstein orcas last year to go with my Bottlehead SEX, 2wpc set amp. I am digging the low power-single driver sound! But when I moved from near field into a larger room (270 ft2, 12ft ceiling) they started to feel too “small”. I don’t have an extensive audio vocab, but I believe I want more bass extension and higher sensitivity, all in a smallish package (can be bigger than orca though). Seemed too much to ask, but after some reading I fell in love with the OG Fonken with fe127e driver. However the drivers are no longer available, and it seems Ff125wk may not be sensitive enough for my flea powered amp. I am eventually looking at adding a sub.
Any suggestions? Or anybody have the old model driver laying around?
Thank you,
Noah
I’ve been doing a lot of reading on the forum the last few weeks, and I first want to thank all the contributors for the wealth of knowledge here. Amazing online community!
I got a pair of blumenstein orcas last year to go with my Bottlehead SEX, 2wpc set amp. I am digging the low power-single driver sound! But when I moved from near field into a larger room (270 ft2, 12ft ceiling) they started to feel too “small”. I don’t have an extensive audio vocab, but I believe I want more bass extension and higher sensitivity, all in a smallish package (can be bigger than orca though). Seemed too much to ask, but after some reading I fell in love with the OG Fonken with fe127e driver. However the drivers are no longer available, and it seems Ff125wk may not be sensitive enough for my flea powered amp. I am eventually looking at adding a sub.
Any suggestions? Or anybody have the old model driver laying around?
Thank you,
Noah
Noah,
Welcome to the start of your DIY audio journey.
I think it's worth clarifying: what are your musical tastes, how loud do you like to listen, and how well did those little Fostex FE83(?)-based speakers do the job for you?
I enjoy a wide range of music, and eventually decided that full-range drivers aren't for me. I found they didn't do well with rock music, or dubstep, or anything with much bass, or...
You get the idea. What they do nicely is very good etc etc, but I wasn't happy with the limits that such drivers put on my system.
So, I'd like to make sure: are you happy with the compromises inherent in full-range drivers?
There was a cabinet that I used for a while, which was a mass-loaded Voigt pipe for the Fostex FE126. I believe an updated version of that driver is still in production, and should work well. It's a medium-sized bookshelf speaker. High sensitivity, but doesn't get much below 100Hz. For full-range reproduction, a subwoofer should be considered.
Perhaps someone still has the plans for that cabinet. It was a pretty straightforward build.
Chris
Welcome to the start of your DIY audio journey.
I think it's worth clarifying: what are your musical tastes, how loud do you like to listen, and how well did those little Fostex FE83(?)-based speakers do the job for you?
I enjoy a wide range of music, and eventually decided that full-range drivers aren't for me. I found they didn't do well with rock music, or dubstep, or anything with much bass, or...
You get the idea. What they do nicely is very good etc etc, but I wasn't happy with the limits that such drivers put on my system.
So, I'd like to make sure: are you happy with the compromises inherent in full-range drivers?
There was a cabinet that I used for a while, which was a mass-loaded Voigt pipe for the Fostex FE126. I believe an updated version of that driver is still in production, and should work well. It's a medium-sized bookshelf speaker. High sensitivity, but doesn't get much below 100Hz. For full-range reproduction, a subwoofer should be considered.
Perhaps someone still has the plans for that cabinet. It was a pretty straightforward build.
Chris
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Hi Chris,
Thanks for asking. My favorite music is mostly acoustic, lots of jazz, bluegrass and classical, which is part of the reason the SET amps were so appealing to me. I started out with headphones with the SEX before I tried out the orcas. I do also like fusion era jazz with more electronic sounds, but in my smaller nearfield setup the orcas with the accompanying 6.5" 48 watt sub were already making me very happy even there. I would like to do a larger sub for more energy in the kick drum and occasional sub-bass synths, as I do occasionally listen to hip-hop as well.
My biggest issue with the orcas in my larger room was the lack of output in the low-mids(?) region, where harmony instruments of a jazz quartet were feeling a bit too overwhelmed by the soloist (trumpet especially but also saxophone). I figured a slightly larger driver and larger box could help?
A voigt pipe design would be awesome, I've been drooling over the Abby's which I believe were some form of voigt. However I didn't know you could compact the design to a bookshelf shape. Very interesting, and would love to see the plans if anyone has them!
Noah
Thanks for asking. My favorite music is mostly acoustic, lots of jazz, bluegrass and classical, which is part of the reason the SET amps were so appealing to me. I started out with headphones with the SEX before I tried out the orcas. I do also like fusion era jazz with more electronic sounds, but in my smaller nearfield setup the orcas with the accompanying 6.5" 48 watt sub were already making me very happy even there. I would like to do a larger sub for more energy in the kick drum and occasional sub-bass synths, as I do occasionally listen to hip-hop as well.
My biggest issue with the orcas in my larger room was the lack of output in the low-mids(?) region, where harmony instruments of a jazz quartet were feeling a bit too overwhelmed by the soloist (trumpet especially but also saxophone). I figured a slightly larger driver and larger box could help?
A voigt pipe design would be awesome, I've been drooling over the Abby's which I believe were some form of voigt. However I didn't know you could compact the design to a bookshelf shape. Very interesting, and would love to see the plans if anyone has them!
Noah
With only 2 watts, you're really up against it, even with larger more efficient drivers. Fostex FF165WK drivers work well in FHXL enclosures. but ultimately, I think you are going to want a bigger amp. They will play loud with 5 watts.
An even better combo (IMHO) is the FHXL + Mark Audio 10p. Here again, you'll want a more powerful amp, as the 10p is less efficient. With this speaker, you can forget about a sub-woofer. 🙂
jeff
I built a pair of Jaguar double-mouth BVRs with a Mark Audio A10.2. Other Mark Audio A10 series speakers should work well. Although this might look like a complex build, it's not. Other than typical 90 degree joints, there are a few 45 degree joints, which are not hard to cut. If you go with a more powerful amp and have the room, you might be surprised at the output of these. My musical tastes are similar to yours and I'm very happy with them.
http://bilder.hifi-forum.de/medium/214069/jaguar-double-mouth-bvr-for-alpair10-v0-99_14270.gif
http://bilder.hifi-forum.de/medium/214069/jaguar-double-mouth-bvr-for-alpair10-v0-99_14270.gif
A10p is often the go-to for low powwr amplifiers. You will be still limited inn overall volume,
The Orcas sport a driver that does not go low, they have been put in a box that tries toovercome that, and it often means anomalies in the lower midrange.
And at least 3dB less sensitive than the Alpair which is also capabe oddoing real bass.
FE126 goes best in Victor, RonHorn A126, or Frugel-Horn Mk3 (a bit of a stretch)
dave
Found the thread where I built a pair of the bookshelf Voigt pipes: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/fe126en-folded-voigt-pipe-construction-thread.170423/
Goodness, that was a long time ago.
There was magic in those boxes, but that magic only happened with certain program material. These days, I use floorstanders with 2x 8" woofers (Seas H1252-08) and 1" compression drivers (18Sound NSD1095N). I don't think they have the same thing going on as 2w/ch SET into full-range drivers, but with my current speakers, I can any music at any volume. A worthwhile move IMO.
With your musical tastes including hip-hop, I think a multi-way speaker should be considered.
Chris
Goodness, that was a long time ago.
There was magic in those boxes, but that magic only happened with certain program material. These days, I use floorstanders with 2x 8" woofers (Seas H1252-08) and 1" compression drivers (18Sound NSD1095N). I don't think they have the same thing going on as 2w/ch SET into full-range drivers, but with my current speakers, I can any music at any volume. A worthwhile move IMO.
With your musical tastes including hip-hop, I think a multi-way speaker should be considered.
Chris
Thank you all for the advice!
I’m getting a bit confused. So the Alpair 10p would be more efficient than my orcas, but preferably built into a larger enclosure? Would something like the golden ratio mar-ken10p work? I saw on the frugal-phile site that there were efficient fonkens that were well suited to low power tube amps at some point.
I’ve been eyeing the larger double mouth cabinets and would really like to try one (particularly the victor) at some point, but right now my floor space is limited.
I understand I won’t be able to get LOUD loud with the two watts, but was hoping to find a box that sounds decent on low power and upgrade to a 2a3 set amp when funds allow.
Thanks,
Noah
I’m getting a bit confused. So the Alpair 10p would be more efficient than my orcas, but preferably built into a larger enclosure? Would something like the golden ratio mar-ken10p work? I saw on the frugal-phile site that there were efficient fonkens that were well suited to low power tube amps at some point.
I’ve been eyeing the larger double mouth cabinets and would really like to try one (particularly the victor) at some point, but right now my floor space is limited.
I understand I won’t be able to get LOUD loud with the two watts, but was hoping to find a box that sounds decent on low power and upgrade to a 2a3 set amp when funds allow.
Thanks,
Noah
Chris, thanks for finding your old build thread. Looks like a cool cabinet. Also hear you on the multi-way suggestion, but I’m just too damn curious with the SET thing right now I’ve gotta scratch the itch.
Noah
Noah
Fair enough, Noah. The SET + FR driver thing can be really nice for certain things, and a subwoofer will help out a bit. I hope you enjoy it.
All the best,
Chris
All the best,
Chris
Yes. The internet says your Orcas have the Fostex FE83NV2 drivers in them. Each driver is rated 87.5dB/W/M (this is from the data sheet). Each A10p is rated at 89.6dB
I'm sure it will work just fine.
jeff
Yes, yes, efficiency is determined by he driver sensitivity.
Orca (FE83) 88dB (good down to to about 150 Hz if pushed)
A10p 90 dB (good down to <35 Hz if pushed)
Won’t go as low in the smaller enclosure but way lower tthan Orca.
dave
Ah yes, who here hasn’t flirted with or had extended dalliances with the flea-watt higher sensitivity single driver approach?
FWIW, Fonken was originally coined to describe a mini-onken* based enclosure using Fostex based drivers, and while the FE series we used in the early days had a minor edge in raw sensitivity over the then new to the market Mark Fenlon drivers (think CSS EL70 and MA CHR70, etc), we quickly found the latter to more easily deliver wider bandwidth performance - quite often in simpler, if not smaller enclosures.
* the high aspect ratio multiple slot port designs of the OG Fonkens/Markens deliver some performance advantages and side-wall bracing, but do add to the complexity of build - particularly on enclosures for the larger sized drivers.
It should be noted that the current speaker system on the Bottlehead site described as comparable with the StereomourII or S.E.X. is based on the Alpair 5. If you want to continue the adventure with this level of power and can afford the physical space that either the FH or even Pensil family can deliver, I’d highly recommend one of the 7 or 10cm CH series drivers.
“Its been a minute” since my last speaker build, so which exact model might best suit the described use case would be hard to determine, but I’d definitely leave room in your calculus / budget for the addition of bass support.
FWIW, Fonken was originally coined to describe a mini-onken* based enclosure using Fostex based drivers, and while the FE series we used in the early days had a minor edge in raw sensitivity over the then new to the market Mark Fenlon drivers (think CSS EL70 and MA CHR70, etc), we quickly found the latter to more easily deliver wider bandwidth performance - quite often in simpler, if not smaller enclosures.
* the high aspect ratio multiple slot port designs of the OG Fonkens/Markens deliver some performance advantages and side-wall bracing, but do add to the complexity of build - particularly on enclosures for the larger sized drivers.
It should be noted that the current speaker system on the Bottlehead site described as comparable with the StereomourII or S.E.X. is based on the Alpair 5. If you want to continue the adventure with this level of power and can afford the physical space that either the FH or even Pensil family can deliver, I’d highly recommend one of the 7 or 10cm CH series drivers.
“Its been a minute” since my last speaker build, so which exact model might best suit the described use case would be hard to determine, but I’d definitely leave room in your calculus / budget for the addition of bass support.
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I've built FR with 4" drivers and apart from a now-obsolete driver in an MLTL there wasn't much bass.
I've built with the larger Alpair 10 (metal and paper) and bass is much better and I would suggest MLTL
I've built with the AN 15" single full range driver which finally I found satisfying but the enclosure is very large and I have only one (mono) but good to know such a beast is out there.
Strong bass with lower power = physically large speaker (Hoffman)
I've built with the larger Alpair 10 (metal and paper) and bass is much better and I would suggest MLTL
I've built with the AN 15" single full range driver which finally I found satisfying but the enclosure is very large and I have only one (mono) but good to know such a beast is out there.
Strong bass with lower power = physically large speaker (Hoffman)
I agree, and with a 2w amp i would also suggest a big fullrange driver that is high sensitive in a large cabinet. I prefer the Fane Sovereighn 12-250TC for that in a huge cabinet, often driven by a 7w ACA class A amp and that goes loud. My Alpair 10.3 bookshelfs not. You have less watt, so...
AN is defunkt (they don't make new drivers anymore, they only sell remaining stock). Lii Song took their place. I don't like both to be honest because they are very ragged and limited in xmax, basicly a very old concept of fullrange drivers.
The Fane is a lot better, because it takes a modern approach and is way more controlled than both brands. It is more made for po audio (in floor monitors or as tops), but on low power it works very well like AN and Lii Song speakers, but a lot cleaner and better sounding. I use a huge reflex cabint tuned to 30Hz, but that limits the max power i can use to about 20w before the driver starts to cut low bass.
I mainly use that setup outside actually, but it's a great set. I had to put it on casters altough, as they weight a lot. This is a picture of them at the time of testing next o a Mark Audio CHN110 MLTL i also build.
AN is defunkt (they don't make new drivers anymore, they only sell remaining stock). Lii Song took their place. I don't like both to be honest because they are very ragged and limited in xmax, basicly a very old concept of fullrange drivers.
The Fane is a lot better, because it takes a modern approach and is way more controlled than both brands. It is more made for po audio (in floor monitors or as tops), but on low power it works very well like AN and Lii Song speakers, but a lot cleaner and better sounding. I use a huge reflex cabint tuned to 30Hz, but that limits the max power i can use to about 20w before the driver starts to cut low bass.
I mainly use that setup outside actually, but it's a great set. I had to put it on casters altough, as they weight a lot. This is a picture of them at the time of testing next o a Mark Audio CHN110 MLTL i also build.
Wow, lots to think about! Sounds like a big cabinet with something like the a10p is the way to go. If you'll humor me I do have two more follow up questions:
1) I like the idea of getting lower bass (duh!) and in a perfect world I think I'd try the FHXL for the a10p driver. However I'm in a retail shop and don't have the floor space necessary, which is why I was originally looking at the Onken style cabinets (thanks for the clarification @chrisb). I do however have plenty of space HORIZONTALLY on my shelves at ear level. At the risk of sounding like a dullard, will I cause any sonic issues by orienting a pair of, say, a10b Pensils on their sides on a shelf with drivers at ear level? I know it might look strange, but that's never stopped me before 🙂
2) Does anyone have a lead on a pair of eNaBLed mark audio 10p drivers? After a lot of lurking on the forum I have to say I'm very curious to try.
Thank you!
1) I like the idea of getting lower bass (duh!) and in a perfect world I think I'd try the FHXL for the a10p driver. However I'm in a retail shop and don't have the floor space necessary, which is why I was originally looking at the Onken style cabinets (thanks for the clarification @chrisb). I do however have plenty of space HORIZONTALLY on my shelves at ear level. At the risk of sounding like a dullard, will I cause any sonic issues by orienting a pair of, say, a10b Pensils on their sides on a shelf with drivers at ear level? I know it might look strange, but that's never stopped me before 🙂
2) Does anyone have a lead on a pair of eNaBLed mark audio 10p drivers? After a lot of lurking on the forum I have to say I'm very curious to try.
Thank you!
Keep an eye out for a used pair (which would be a rare find), or do it yourself.
If you want them to fit in a bookshelf, then build bookshelf speakers, and supplement the lower octaves with powered woofers.
jeff
Took too long to compose this as edit to the above post, but still wanted to get this out there.
In reviewing my earlier posts this thread I noted the comment re “bass support”. That was in the context of the smaller size class of FR drivers we often see employed - i.e the 5 through 7 cm series of MA. It’s been my experience that the 10cm models in well executed enclosure designs don’t suffer much in that regard for most music and moderate listening levels (generally below 90dB for me).
While not at all a thorough scientific analysis of in room speaker performance, I’ll mention that I regularly futz around with settings in my Atmos system. The main front row 3 are Alpair 10.3; L&R are Scott’s Pensils, and the centre is a much smaller design by Dave, and the front/ rear heights are Pluvia7 and A6s respectively.
One of features of the current Onkyo’s AutoEQ calibration is to verify there actually are functioning speakers in the locations you’ve indicated, as well as to test for polarity and estimate bandwidth. In the case of the Pensils, it sets their default size to full-band (no HP), but the smaller centre to 60Hz. Even though the Pensils are quite capable, I found that in a HT scenario high passing all the bed layer and effects channels between 80 and 120 and relying on a pair of aligned and EQ’d corner mounted subs delivers the smoothest overall performance.
In reviewing my earlier posts this thread I noted the comment re “bass support”. That was in the context of the smaller size class of FR drivers we often see employed - i.e the 5 through 7 cm series of MA. It’s been my experience that the 10cm models in well executed enclosure designs don’t suffer much in that regard for most music and moderate listening levels (generally below 90dB for me).
While not at all a thorough scientific analysis of in room speaker performance, I’ll mention that I regularly futz around with settings in my Atmos system. The main front row 3 are Alpair 10.3; L&R are Scott’s Pensils, and the centre is a much smaller design by Dave, and the front/ rear heights are Pluvia7 and A6s respectively.
One of features of the current Onkyo’s AutoEQ calibration is to verify there actually are functioning speakers in the locations you’ve indicated, as well as to test for polarity and estimate bandwidth. In the case of the Pensils, it sets their default size to full-band (no HP), but the smaller centre to 60Hz. Even though the Pensils are quite capable, I found that in a HT scenario high passing all the bed layer and effects channels between 80 and 120 and relying on a pair of aligned and EQ’d corner mounted subs delivers the smoothest overall performance.
Thanks ChrisB. That’s great to hear. I think I’ll give one of the smaller cabinets a try and do a sub to fill in the low end. Down to 60hz will be a huge improvement over what I’ve got going on now. Was looking at some SEAS 10” drivers in a basic ported box.
I’d love to try something big (ma10p in a BIB?) just to hear what the gigantic speaker plus fleawatt sound is like. Maybe throw one together with particleboard just to experiment. Won’t be able to fit in my shop though, and my wife may take some convincing to let those things in the house 😁
I’d love to try something big (ma10p in a BIB?) just to hear what the gigantic speaker plus fleawatt sound is like. Maybe throw one together with particleboard just to experiment. Won’t be able to fit in my shop though, and my wife may take some convincing to let those things in the house 😁