Guru’s, I’m looking to build a subwoofer to compliment my existing system. I have 4x QSC KW 153 towers and 3x QSC Kw 181 Subwoofers. We are mostly playing EDM music House, Trance, Dubstep. I’ve spent days online reading and am starting to run sims in Winisd. These sims dont however correlate very well to my ear and audiophile needs. I very much dislike boomy muddy bass. Punch in the chest (80 to 120hz) is very desirable, but EDM also requires the low 30z as well (second priority). The current KW181 1000 watt rms 18’s are good, but not very musical. They seem to have good spl compared to most 18” powered subs I have been around tho. I’ve built 4 or 5 boxes over the years following cookie cutter plans, but now am trying to do things better.
I don’t want to reinvent the wheel and am looking for direction on an 18” subwoofer. Bass reflex design, I’ve read not to mix Bass reflex and folded horns for some reason. Budget is under $1000 including 1 sub, amp, and box material. Planning for 1000W rms power.
1. What drivers are recommended for my application? From reading my short list is Dayton PA465S($219) or the B&C 18sw115 (was recommended by B&c, but seems expensive$474), or B&C TBX 100. Are the B&C subs really worth the extra money over the Dayton? It doesn’t look like I gain much with a BR design and 1000Watts. I wouldn’t mind running 1500watts to the subs as less subs running more spl will reduce the number of subs to haul around. Although correct me if I’m wrong but with these BR’s over a 1000Watts is looking like diminishing returns. Or is there a different 18” you recommend? I wasn’t sure with the high output I’m searching for that I might need a high xmax sub.
2. Unless there’s a better Idea I’m looking at a BR box with two round Adjustable ports ( I want to be able to play with the port tuning and see what sounds the best in the real world). Box volume 6.38ft3 Tuned to 35 hz, recommended on Parts express, but does that include port volume? (hoping for punch in the chest feeling). What port size and length do you recommend starting with? (just so I have something to check against my winisd results).
3.Power Inuke 3000 bridged (1500watts at 8ohms $230). I’m a fan of running amps a little lower.
4.Crossovers. It looks like the NU3000 has all of the crossover control I need in its manual correct?
5.Is there a real world sound difference between slotted ports and round ports?
6. For this application should i do any box packing?
Thanks for any help. I’m a Mechanical Engineer and understand how truly complex sound and resonance really is. I see so many cool creative ideas out there, but the actual build reports I read always have some caveat, while the BR designs usually work across the spectrum. I like the simple cubo18 idea, but not sure its for my use.
QSC KW 181
Frequency Response (-6 dB) 40 Hz to 112 Hz
Frequency Range (-10 dB) 37 Hz to 129 Hz
Maximum SPL1 135 dB peak
I don’t want to reinvent the wheel and am looking for direction on an 18” subwoofer. Bass reflex design, I’ve read not to mix Bass reflex and folded horns for some reason. Budget is under $1000 including 1 sub, amp, and box material. Planning for 1000W rms power.
1. What drivers are recommended for my application? From reading my short list is Dayton PA465S($219) or the B&C 18sw115 (was recommended by B&c, but seems expensive$474), or B&C TBX 100. Are the B&C subs really worth the extra money over the Dayton? It doesn’t look like I gain much with a BR design and 1000Watts. I wouldn’t mind running 1500watts to the subs as less subs running more spl will reduce the number of subs to haul around. Although correct me if I’m wrong but with these BR’s over a 1000Watts is looking like diminishing returns. Or is there a different 18” you recommend? I wasn’t sure with the high output I’m searching for that I might need a high xmax sub.
2. Unless there’s a better Idea I’m looking at a BR box with two round Adjustable ports ( I want to be able to play with the port tuning and see what sounds the best in the real world). Box volume 6.38ft3 Tuned to 35 hz, recommended on Parts express, but does that include port volume? (hoping for punch in the chest feeling). What port size and length do you recommend starting with? (just so I have something to check against my winisd results).
3.Power Inuke 3000 bridged (1500watts at 8ohms $230). I’m a fan of running amps a little lower.
4.Crossovers. It looks like the NU3000 has all of the crossover control I need in its manual correct?
5.Is there a real world sound difference between slotted ports and round ports?
6. For this application should i do any box packing?
Thanks for any help. I’m a Mechanical Engineer and understand how truly complex sound and resonance really is. I see so many cool creative ideas out there, but the actual build reports I read always have some caveat, while the BR designs usually work across the spectrum. I like the simple cubo18 idea, but not sure its for my use.
QSC KW 181
Frequency Response (-6 dB) 40 Hz to 112 Hz
Frequency Range (-10 dB) 37 Hz to 129 Hz
Maximum SPL1 135 dB peak
Hi treukauf,
I'm guessing this is a PA application? Looks like your QSC KW 151s don't have as much low frequency extension as your QSC KW 153s.
Take a look here, Posts #773 is the latest greatest drawing for a sub that would extend your low frequencies (pictures in #775/864/868 - sims in #877):
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subw...30-ft30-pa-th-awesomeness-78.html#post4376089
It's designed for 18" drivers like the B&C 18SW115-8, see P.87-89 for driver choice discussions.
Another great tapped horn is the Keystone sub by weltersys:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/185588-keystone-sub-using-18-15-12-inch-speakers.html
Also, the Keystone works very well w/ the 18SW115-8. For your amplifier you want the DSP feature, e.g: the Behringer NU6000DSP:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/185588-keystone-sub-using-18-15-12-inch-speakers.html
Regards,
I'm guessing this is a PA application? Looks like your QSC KW 151s don't have as much low frequency extension as your QSC KW 153s.
Take a look here, Posts #773 is the latest greatest drawing for a sub that would extend your low frequencies (pictures in #775/864/868 - sims in #877):
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subw...30-ft30-pa-th-awesomeness-78.html#post4376089
It's designed for 18" drivers like the B&C 18SW115-8, see P.87-89 for driver choice discussions.
Another great tapped horn is the Keystone sub by weltersys:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/185588-keystone-sub-using-18-15-12-inch-speakers.html
Also, the Keystone works very well w/ the 18SW115-8. For your amplifier you want the DSP feature, e.g: the Behringer NU6000DSP:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/185588-keystone-sub-using-18-15-12-inch-speakers.html
Regards,
Im also trying to compare the two mentioned drivers to a eminence kilomax pro18a? Any preference? Kilomax is more efficient and has a lower qts than the dayton.
Kilomax is an old design, the Qes is relatively high, so it wants a fairly large ported box.
If you want to go low and loud, you've got to move a lot of air. Double the Xmax means +6dB output.
FWIW, the peak rating on commercial powered speakers is often 6dB over what the cabinet and driver ought to be able to do. 135dB from a ported 18"? I don't think so...
What's your long-term goal here?
If you want to stop at one sub, the NU3000DSP bridged is the way to do it. If you might want more in the future, go for the NU6000DSP. That way, the 2nd sub only needs the cabinet and driver - you've got the amp already.
Chris
If you want to go low and loud, you've got to move a lot of air. Double the Xmax means +6dB output.
FWIW, the peak rating on commercial powered speakers is often 6dB over what the cabinet and driver ought to be able to do. 135dB from a ported 18"? I don't think so...
What's your long-term goal here?
If you want to stop at one sub, the NU3000DSP bridged is the way to do it. If you might want more in the future, go for the NU6000DSP. That way, the 2nd sub only needs the cabinet and driver - you've got the amp already.
Chris
PE (Dayton) PA 465S
The information of the PE sales page is incorrect. For a vented enclosure, this driver needs 21.3 cubic feet, tuned to 22.6 Hz
That is IF AND ONLY IF THE published specs are correct.
The information of the PE sales page is incorrect. For a vented enclosure, this driver needs 21.3 cubic feet, tuned to 22.6 Hz
That is IF AND ONLY IF THE published specs are correct.
Hi treukauf,
Post #1: "...2. Unless there’s a better Idea I’m looking at a BR box with two round Adjustable ports ( I want to be able to play with the port tuning and see what sounds the best in the real world). Box volume 6.38ft3 Tuned to 35 hz, recommended on Parts express, but does that include port volume? (hoping for punch in the chest feeling). What port size and length do you recommend starting with? (just so I have something to check against my winisd results)..."
I'm not sure which driver you are referring to.
Just in general, most vented PA boxes use vents (ducts/ports) that are too small.
I'll attach a Hornresp example for a BR (bass reflex) for the B&C 18TBX100 using 2ea. 8"Dia. ducts: At Xvar=11mm @ 47.5Hz the respective port outlet peak particle velocity is 26m/sec @ 25.7Hz. The recommendations for particle velocity for PA vents are all over the place. For high quality sound and to minimize volume loss JBL recommends 10m/sec. I would not recommend more than maybe 20m/sec, so this would need even bigger ducts (?), or, big round-overs/sloped inlets/outlets like in the JBL jet port. Anyway, looks to me that as an example a BR for the 18TBX100 (with a response slightly rising towards the upper end) should be at least V_net=250L[8.3ft^3], and have at least two 8"Dia. by 20" long ducts.
The V_net is the net internal volume, in other words: subtract all things inside from the gross internal volume (driver, braces, ducts, handles, connectors,...).
Example only, YMMV. 🙂 And, it will not compete w/ a tapped horn in output, but it is smaller.
Regards,
P.S.: I highly recommend Hornresp.
Post #1: "...2. Unless there’s a better Idea I’m looking at a BR box with two round Adjustable ports ( I want to be able to play with the port tuning and see what sounds the best in the real world). Box volume 6.38ft3 Tuned to 35 hz, recommended on Parts express, but does that include port volume? (hoping for punch in the chest feeling). What port size and length do you recommend starting with? (just so I have something to check against my winisd results)..."
I'm not sure which driver you are referring to.
Just in general, most vented PA boxes use vents (ducts/ports) that are too small.
I'll attach a Hornresp example for a BR (bass reflex) for the B&C 18TBX100 using 2ea. 8"Dia. ducts: At Xvar=11mm @ 47.5Hz the respective port outlet peak particle velocity is 26m/sec @ 25.7Hz. The recommendations for particle velocity for PA vents are all over the place. For high quality sound and to minimize volume loss JBL recommends 10m/sec. I would not recommend more than maybe 20m/sec, so this would need even bigger ducts (?), or, big round-overs/sloped inlets/outlets like in the JBL jet port. Anyway, looks to me that as an example a BR for the 18TBX100 (with a response slightly rising towards the upper end) should be at least V_net=250L[8.3ft^3], and have at least two 8"Dia. by 20" long ducts.
The V_net is the net internal volume, in other words: subtract all things inside from the gross internal volume (driver, braces, ducts, handles, connectors,...).
Example only, YMMV. 🙂 And, it will not compete w/ a tapped horn in output, but it is smaller.
Regards,
P.S.: I highly recommend Hornresp.
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Oliver, i was planning on the dayton pa465. For what reasons did you recommend the bc tbx100 for my br application. Just trying to learn.
Hi treukauf,
Post #7: "... planning on the dayton pa465. For what reasons did you recommend the bc tbx100..."
For me the PA465-8 is an unknown factor, so I would not recommend for it, or against it. But, there are already two Posts w/ negative information on the PA465-8 (Post #5 and 8). I hope some of our PA experts have some additional information here.
The B&C 18TBX100 is a known performer, and when I put both into Hornresp the B&C outperforms the Dayton by about 5 to 6 dB both at Xmax (using similar vent velocities, and for the Dayton the PE recommended box size w/ 2ea. 6"Dia. ducts).
Regards,
Post #7: "... planning on the dayton pa465. For what reasons did you recommend the bc tbx100..."
For me the PA465-8 is an unknown factor, so I would not recommend for it, or against it. But, there are already two Posts w/ negative information on the PA465-8 (Post #5 and 8). I hope some of our PA experts have some additional information here.
The B&C 18TBX100 is a known performer, and when I put both into Hornresp the B&C outperforms the Dayton by about 5 to 6 dB both at Xmax (using similar vent velocities, and for the Dayton the PE recommended box size w/ 2ea. 6"Dia. ducts).
Regards,
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What I recommend
There are two primary contributors to ported subwoofer performance. Driver linearity/distortion and port design. The bigger you can get the ports the better. If you can't mold your own to maximize the frontal surface area of the box go with large flared ports (it makes a notable difference in port compression). Slot ports are used because they are cheap and easy to build and give you the most surface area with a minimum complexity. It is always a battle between large port area and reasonable cabinet size, ymmv. The reason that horns and ported subwoofers don't mix lies in phase response. Lets just say you will have periodic notches (unpredictable and spacing/room dependent) depending on the phase response of the subwoofer (horns have different phase response shapes so that makes them exceedingly hard to match) Plug into hornresp to view in more detail. How a subwoofer driver sounds and it's BL curve are two things that you can't (or they won't) put on a spec sheet. Klippel can tell you a lot about driver non-linearities and reveal suspension issues but alas not everyone has access to such hardware. Make the tube in the middle out of cardboard and use tape to secure the flanges is probably the best way to adjust the tube. Then just cut it to make it shorter (obviously start long and go from there).
There are two primary contributors to ported subwoofer performance. Driver linearity/distortion and port design. The bigger you can get the ports the better. If you can't mold your own to maximize the frontal surface area of the box go with large flared ports (it makes a notable difference in port compression). Slot ports are used because they are cheap and easy to build and give you the most surface area with a minimum complexity. It is always a battle between large port area and reasonable cabinet size, ymmv. The reason that horns and ported subwoofers don't mix lies in phase response. Lets just say you will have periodic notches (unpredictable and spacing/room dependent) depending on the phase response of the subwoofer (horns have different phase response shapes so that makes them exceedingly hard to match) Plug into hornresp to view in more detail. How a subwoofer driver sounds and it's BL curve are two things that you can't (or they won't) put on a spec sheet. Klippel can tell you a lot about driver non-linearities and reveal suspension issues but alas not everyone has access to such hardware. Make the tube in the middle out of cardboard and use tape to secure the flanges is probably the best way to adjust the tube. Then just cut it to make it shorter (obviously start long and go from there).
Hi all,
The B&C 18TBX100 has an EBP of 91Hz and a Qes of 0.37
Not really a woofer for a ported (pro) PA sub with a nice defined 'punchy' sound ...
Cheers,
Djim
The B&C 18TBX100 has an EBP of 91Hz and a Qes of 0.37
Not really a woofer for a ported (pro) PA sub with a nice defined 'punchy' sound ...
Cheers,
Djim
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Hi Djim,
Yes, the 18TBX100 should work better in a tapped horn. Any recommendations for the OP?
Regards,
Yes, the 18TBX100 should work better in a tapped horn. Any recommendations for the OP?
Regards,
Hi tb46,
It really depends, location of OP, if he really wants to stick with reflex, if he realizes that 4 x KW153 have a total output of +140 dB and how many ported systems and amps he needs to equal that number…
Cheers,
Djim
It really depends, location of OP, if he really wants to stick with reflex, if he realizes that 4 x KW153 have a total output of +140 dB and how many ported systems and amps he needs to equal that number…
Cheers,
Djim
Yes i would like to stick with bass reflex. For now i want to build and play with sub tuning to get the sound i want. Not sure what that is yet just looking for a good driver to start with. Im quickly seeing excursion is my limiting factor. Thanks,
Hi treukauf,
In that case I would go for LF woofer with a Qts between 0.28 and 0.33 (0.31 is considered ideal for a reflex system).
It might be interesting for you to search this forum for the word PPSL (Push-Pull-Slot Loaded). It is reflex system with a 2 woofer configuration in PP that has some advantages over a 'normal' bassreflex.
Cheers,
Djim
In that case I would go for LF woofer with a Qts between 0.28 and 0.33 (0.31 is considered ideal for a reflex system).
It might be interesting for you to search this forum for the word PPSL (Push-Pull-Slot Loaded). It is reflex system with a 2 woofer configuration in PP that has some advantages over a 'normal' bassreflex.
Cheers,
Djim
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Link above is a comparison of spl curves and shows the qsc's inadequacies down low. How is Bass boss accomplishing this great curve? I would like to emulate it. See link below to their subwoofer.
Link to bassboss
BASSBOSS SSP118 Powered 18" Subwoofer
Well Bassboss is using 2400watts rms and a driver capable of 2.2" peak to peak excursion. Is there a downside to a high travel driver? But thats at a $3900 price. So the Dayton PA465 is probably out due to its high qts. Now I have the Kilomax 18 pro a and maybe a B&C 18SW100 if someone can convince me its worth another $130. I'm going for as much power as I can. I know its more efficient to have multiple subs rather than drive one really hard. Just trying to get a flatter broader curve than qsc without losing too much spl. Box size doesnt matter so it looks like going to a big box might help me.
Also looking at DefiniMax 4018LF Double18 Large Dance Club Sub
By Jerry McNutt, Eminence Speaker LLC
Thermally Limited to 1600 Watts; F3 of 37 Hz. Use a steep high pass filter
set to 30 Hz.
Box Properties
--Description--
Name:
Type: Vented Box
Shape: Prism, square
--Box Parameters--
Vb = 13 cu.ft
V(total) = 14.12 cu.ft
Fb = 40 Hz
QL = 7
F3 = 36.73 Hz
Fill = minimal
--Vents--
No. of Vents = 8
Vent shape = round
Vent ends = one flush
Dv = 4 in
Lv = 6.82 in
http://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/manuals/290-579-eminence-definimax-4018lf-manual.pdf
By Jerry McNutt, Eminence Speaker LLC
Thermally Limited to 1600 Watts; F3 of 37 Hz. Use a steep high pass filter
set to 30 Hz.
Box Properties
--Description--
Name:
Type: Vented Box
Shape: Prism, square
--Box Parameters--
Vb = 13 cu.ft
V(total) = 14.12 cu.ft
Fb = 40 Hz
QL = 7
F3 = 36.73 Hz
Fill = minimal
--Vents--
No. of Vents = 8
Vent shape = round
Vent ends = one flush
Dv = 4 in
Lv = 6.82 in
http://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/manuals/290-579-eminence-definimax-4018lf-manual.pdf
It should work Ok in an EBS design too, as well as an offset TL, which aren't really that much more difficult to design than a vented box. B&C also provides a VB design alignment for this driver. Consider how the OP is choosing to power his system. My cousin runs his 18TBX100s with an iNuke 6000 in vented W-bins and they're survived for the moment.
I also have a TH design for the 18TBX100, as well as an offset TL design, but neither are properly tested, so I can't recommend them.
You want as much low-frequency output as possible from a single 18". You need more cone excursion than the Kilomax, 4018, or Dayton. You also need plenty of thermal power handling, and reasonable efficiency (though that's definitely not a priority - just stay away from home theatre drivers with really heavy cones and low efficiency designed for tiny boxes).
I'd say you need one of these: FaitalPRO | LF Loudspeakers | 18XL1800
20mm Xmax. Should cheerfully annihilate a pair of KW181s. Should even nudge ahead of the 18SW115, but only just.
Chris
I'd say you need one of these: FaitalPRO | LF Loudspeakers | 18XL1800
20mm Xmax. Should cheerfully annihilate a pair of KW181s. Should even nudge ahead of the 18SW115, but only just.
Chris
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