Hello!
Newbie here, forgive me if I'm duplicating thread topic.
Planning to build 4 * 18" sealed sub for my HT.
Did research for a week and all I found were projects and reviews of Dayton Audio.
In my experience the most popular product usually doesn't disappoint me. But still want to know what other options I can get.
What I want is simple, <150L sealed 18" sub. That's all. Of course my budget has limits but not very important.(not tight)
Living in japan, products' accessibility also doesn't really matter to me(all difficult, slow and expensive... eu, us, ... whatever)
Any slight information would be grateful.
Thanks!
ps. Clarification : Want to get recommendations of good product experience or information about other products that are popular to diy.
Newbie here, forgive me if I'm duplicating thread topic.
Planning to build 4 * 18" sealed sub for my HT.
Did research for a week and all I found were projects and reviews of Dayton Audio.
In my experience the most popular product usually doesn't disappoint me. But still want to know what other options I can get.
What I want is simple, <150L sealed 18" sub. That's all. Of course my budget has limits but not very important.(not tight)
Living in japan, products' accessibility also doesn't really matter to me(all difficult, slow and expensive... eu, us, ... whatever)
Any slight information would be grateful.
Thanks!
ps. Clarification : Want to get recommendations of good product experience or information about other products that are popular to diy.
Hi,
If your goal is sealed enclosure and 18" this implies you're after low frequencies. So the driver you will want to target needs a low Fs and ideally a very substantial xmax value. You will need gobs of power unless you're in a tiny room and/or using them near field. Budget matters. You could be looking at $400 USD drivers or $1k+ drivers. You'll need to set the budget either way. 5 cubic feet enclosures like you described around that 150L volume can do this but it needs to be modeled for cone excursion.
Is there local you can buy there in Japan? Or do you need to import something? Where can you buy from ideally?
Very best,
If your goal is sealed enclosure and 18" this implies you're after low frequencies. So the driver you will want to target needs a low Fs and ideally a very substantial xmax value. You will need gobs of power unless you're in a tiny room and/or using them near field. Budget matters. You could be looking at $400 USD drivers or $1k+ drivers. You'll need to set the budget either way. 5 cubic feet enclosures like you described around that 150L volume can do this but it needs to be modeled for cone excursion.
Is there local you can buy there in Japan? Or do you need to import something? Where can you buy from ideally?
Very best,
Dayton is the most common manufacturer of large HT sub chassis with outstanding price / performance ratio.
You will find that the ultra low HT subs use chassis very similar to those used in car audio.
Now there are not too many people having the space to install 18" subs in a car. Also, most people around the world do not have the room for such large drivers in their living space. so the market is quite limited outside the US.
The majority of 18" chassis is made for PA purpose, these usually do not go below 30 Hz, making them not very effective for the earth quake simulations you want in a HT.
If you limit a search to 18" and narrow it a little by excursion and Fs, you find the usual suspects. Like this:
http://www.loudspeakerdatabase.com/search/18.0_size_in_31.5/9_fs_25/9.0_xmax_42.5
Next, I suppose in this region of HT most customers have their installation made with professional help, which does not make them the typical DIYS forum lurkers. So response about first hand product experience may be limited.
Also, these experiences are very subjective, while the objective result depends most on the complete system, which starts by the rooms parameters and building material. The same sub woofer, heard in a concrete basement, is absolutely different from it playing in a home build from Wood panel etc.
My advice is to take some promising chassis and run them in a (free) simulation like WinISD. Then compare to your frequency response and SPL ideas. With 150l plus 18" you will need a DSP for room correction in any case.
This will give you more reliable information than a maybe biased oppinion.
4 such subs may drive a medium sized commercial cinema. So for HT use, they are on the very large side and can turn a "normal" sized room into a torture chamber, driven by only a few watt's.
As you are in Japan, the "mine is larger than yours" factor may be very important, maybe more important than actual performance in the actual room.
Please have a look at what SPL permanent damage to human health will occur.
Good luck!
You will find that the ultra low HT subs use chassis very similar to those used in car audio.
Now there are not too many people having the space to install 18" subs in a car. Also, most people around the world do not have the room for such large drivers in their living space. so the market is quite limited outside the US.
The majority of 18" chassis is made for PA purpose, these usually do not go below 30 Hz, making them not very effective for the earth quake simulations you want in a HT.
If you limit a search to 18" and narrow it a little by excursion and Fs, you find the usual suspects. Like this:
http://www.loudspeakerdatabase.com/search/18.0_size_in_31.5/9_fs_25/9.0_xmax_42.5
Next, I suppose in this region of HT most customers have their installation made with professional help, which does not make them the typical DIYS forum lurkers. So response about first hand product experience may be limited.
Also, these experiences are very subjective, while the objective result depends most on the complete system, which starts by the rooms parameters and building material. The same sub woofer, heard in a concrete basement, is absolutely different from it playing in a home build from Wood panel etc.
My advice is to take some promising chassis and run them in a (free) simulation like WinISD. Then compare to your frequency response and SPL ideas. With 150l plus 18" you will need a DSP for room correction in any case.
This will give you more reliable information than a maybe biased oppinion.
4 such subs may drive a medium sized commercial cinema. So for HT use, they are on the very large side and can turn a "normal" sized room into a torture chamber, driven by only a few watt's.
As you are in Japan, the "mine is larger than yours" factor may be very important, maybe more important than actual performance in the actual room.
Please have a look at what SPL permanent damage to human health will occur.
Good luck!
There are local distributers but they're far more expensive than importing them personally, so mostly importing.
$1k+ drivers would be ok if their performance match their price. But if similar performance product with reasonable price exists, going for that one since I'm not a fool to think price tag is quality.
Using 4 subs are mainly for even LF response(not maxSPL), so power is ok for me.
If possible, would be grateful to get both recommendations(budget and premium)
Thanks
Thanks for your concerns. But bigger sub(for me) is for LF extension not for maxSPL. I have a mid-size personal HT and my family enjoys movie with me, so even LF response matters.
I do know how to use winisd or vituixcad, but there are too many sub drivers in the list. Reason why I started this thread:get DIYers' popular sub driver recommendation.
Thanks
Hi,
So again, it matters a ton what frequency you want to get down to that is usable at the listening SPL you want. SPL of 15hz is not the same as SPL at 30hz. They could be both 100db and the 30hz will sound much louder to you than 15hz would at the same SPL. Low frequencies below 20~21hz you cannot even hear, just feel, it's pressure but inaudible to us. So if you want below 20hz just for the pressure feeling, you need to again set goals and limits. Every single 1hz below 20hz requires careful planning and to get higher SPL so it matters, it takes bigger enclosures, bigger drivers and more power. 4 subs would help increase SPL and give better smoother response in listening positions to fill nulls. I would bet if you heard a 20hz tone at 92db, you'd not even know it really unless your hearing is exceptional.
So again:
1) What is the lowest frequency you want to have usable.
2) What SPL max do you want to be able to achieve at your listening position area.
3) Total max budget.
4) Can you build the enclosures yourself and have you done this?
5) If you have never used modeling software, that's ok, someone else might model it for you if you can still build it.
6) Is 18 your limit? How about 21" drivers? This relates to sub-20hz frequencies and how important they may be to you.
7) If you just want tactile feel from subs, you don't need subs for that, transducers can do it for a lot less (bass shakers).
Do you have a calibrated microphone?
Have you ever measured SPL that you listen at? If so, what's your max listening SPL?
Very best,
So again, it matters a ton what frequency you want to get down to that is usable at the listening SPL you want. SPL of 15hz is not the same as SPL at 30hz. They could be both 100db and the 30hz will sound much louder to you than 15hz would at the same SPL. Low frequencies below 20~21hz you cannot even hear, just feel, it's pressure but inaudible to us. So if you want below 20hz just for the pressure feeling, you need to again set goals and limits. Every single 1hz below 20hz requires careful planning and to get higher SPL so it matters, it takes bigger enclosures, bigger drivers and more power. 4 subs would help increase SPL and give better smoother response in listening positions to fill nulls. I would bet if you heard a 20hz tone at 92db, you'd not even know it really unless your hearing is exceptional.
So again:
1) What is the lowest frequency you want to have usable.
2) What SPL max do you want to be able to achieve at your listening position area.
3) Total max budget.
4) Can you build the enclosures yourself and have you done this?
5) If you have never used modeling software, that's ok, someone else might model it for you if you can still build it.
6) Is 18 your limit? How about 21" drivers? This relates to sub-20hz frequencies and how important they may be to you.
7) If you just want tactile feel from subs, you don't need subs for that, transducers can do it for a lot less (bass shakers).
Do you have a calibrated microphone?
Have you ever measured SPL that you listen at? If so, what's your max listening SPL?
Very best,
Dayton UM18-22 in a 4-6cf sealed cabinet is a simple and cost effective solution.
Great build quality, indestructible glass fiber cone and high Xmax, low Fs.
You can run them with inexpensive Behringer NX3000D (the one with DSP)as long as you can manage the fan noise.
You'll get a solid 1000Wrms per cabinet which is perfect for this driver.
Honestly I don't see what more a "premium" solution will offer you in a HT setting.
The $$$ you save can be spent on a microphone and measurement software, or even a room correction processor.
Sound quality gains will come from thoughtful EQ and placement in room.
https://data-bass.com/#/drivers/5b77254ffd9e4b0004914621?_k=lrgrw4
Great build quality, indestructible glass fiber cone and high Xmax, low Fs.
You can run them with inexpensive Behringer NX3000D (the one with DSP)as long as you can manage the fan noise.
You'll get a solid 1000Wrms per cabinet which is perfect for this driver.
Honestly I don't see what more a "premium" solution will offer you in a HT setting.
The $$$ you save can be spent on a microphone and measurement software, or even a room correction processor.
Sound quality gains will come from thoughtful EQ and placement in room.
https://data-bass.com/#/drivers/5b77254ffd9e4b0004914621?_k=lrgrw4
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I may add some points to the list made by @MalVeauX:
What are the dimensions of your room? Maybe a sketch?
What materials are floor, walls and ceiling made from?
Is the room for HT only or some kind of living room?
Do you have a DSP?
What HT receiver do you use?
Room correction system?
What kind of system, like 5.1, 7.1 or 9.1?
I suppose you do not have any neighbors?
If you order, just add a few $ for a microphone. Best for simple use is a USB type like the Dayton UMM-6 USB.
At least use a calibrated version!
What are the dimensions of your room? Maybe a sketch?
What materials are floor, walls and ceiling made from?
Is the room for HT only or some kind of living room?
Do you have a DSP?
What HT receiver do you use?
Room correction system?
What kind of system, like 5.1, 7.1 or 9.1?
I suppose you do not have any neighbors?
If you order, just add a few $ for a microphone. Best for simple use is a USB type like the Dayton UMM-6 USB.
At least use a calibrated version!
Just found some older simulation I made in REW. A good simulation may give you better information than some subjective experience.
If you go for a closed 150 liter enclosure and loosely fill it with some damping, you should calculate with about 10% more, like 165 liter.
If, for example, you use a Dayton UM18-22 chassis, you need some serious power. In most cases this will be a medium size PA amp, as these are more reliable and cheaper than some low volume build exotic HT stuff only made to deliver such power short time.
This means around 1000 Wrms / 4 Ohms. 2X 500Wrms /2 Ohm will do as well, if you use separate voice coils. Multiply by 4 if you like.
Modern D-amps with switching power supplies have made such power manageable. A transformer driven A/B or H class amp would be quite heavy around 20kg and even at idle heat up your room.
The same power, build in modern components, does not even put half that on the scale and use much less power.
If you really go for 4 subs, I recommend to use 2 stereo amps instead of a 4-channel. If one fails, you only just change over some wires and continue with 6dB less maximum SPL.
This may seem a lot of power on first sight, but for linear response, down to 20Hz, you need a lot of excursion. The more than a pound heavy membrane has to overcome the resistance of the suspension and compress/ expand the air volume in the cabinet. Moving it more than 20mm in one direction needs power. The UM18-22 can do even some more, that what program power is made for. Always go for an amp on the high side of RMS power. Better for the speaker and the amp!
If you were in Europe, I would recommend some local specialties, like Thomann, maybe even Behringer or Crown, but in the land of Sony and Yamaha, you may have other options.
So what do you get? 4X 18” Dayton, 4x 1000 Wrms will give you constant 120dB at 20 Hz in 1 meter distance, even more for peaks. Because of pressure camber effects, I can not predict the real level for your guests, but such SPL should instantly make anyone head for the emergency exit, as long as they are still able to walk
You will have to fix, damp and remove a lot of rattling from the room, I promise.
An interesting alternative, if you get tired of raw power, would be two subs on the front and two at the rear wall, out of phase and delayed. So the sound generated at the front will be absorbed from the rear speakers, making the room resonant free.
We save that for later...
If you go for a closed 150 liter enclosure and loosely fill it with some damping, you should calculate with about 10% more, like 165 liter.
If, for example, you use a Dayton UM18-22 chassis, you need some serious power. In most cases this will be a medium size PA amp, as these are more reliable and cheaper than some low volume build exotic HT stuff only made to deliver such power short time.
This means around 1000 Wrms / 4 Ohms. 2X 500Wrms /2 Ohm will do as well, if you use separate voice coils. Multiply by 4 if you like.
Modern D-amps with switching power supplies have made such power manageable. A transformer driven A/B or H class amp would be quite heavy around 20kg and even at idle heat up your room.
The same power, build in modern components, does not even put half that on the scale and use much less power.
If you really go for 4 subs, I recommend to use 2 stereo amps instead of a 4-channel. If one fails, you only just change over some wires and continue with 6dB less maximum SPL.
This may seem a lot of power on first sight, but for linear response, down to 20Hz, you need a lot of excursion. The more than a pound heavy membrane has to overcome the resistance of the suspension and compress/ expand the air volume in the cabinet. Moving it more than 20mm in one direction needs power. The UM18-22 can do even some more, that what program power is made for. Always go for an amp on the high side of RMS power. Better for the speaker and the amp!
If you were in Europe, I would recommend some local specialties, like Thomann, maybe even Behringer or Crown, but in the land of Sony and Yamaha, you may have other options.
So what do you get? 4X 18” Dayton, 4x 1000 Wrms will give you constant 120dB at 20 Hz in 1 meter distance, even more for peaks. Because of pressure camber effects, I can not predict the real level for your guests, but such SPL should instantly make anyone head for the emergency exit, as long as they are still able to walk
You will have to fix, damp and remove a lot of rattling from the room, I promise.
An interesting alternative, if you get tired of raw power, would be two subs on the front and two at the rear wall, out of phase and delayed. So the sound generated at the front will be absorbed from the rear speakers, making the room resonant free.
We save that for later...
1) 10HZ~ if possible, but ~20HZ can be negotiable
2) 'rms' 90dBSPL@3~5m
3) OK $10k max for 4 drivers
4) YES
5) I used winisd or vituixcad, but as far as I know seaeled sub cabinet only depends on its net internal volume. Isn't it?
6) I think 18" is big enough for me.
7) Thats only additional effect(not important)
I have an earthworks M23R.
+ used to utilize minidsp, dirac and rew.
Thanks for your kindest reply.
Thank you!
I know um18-22 is a good product in a reasonable price that lots of American diyers love.
I just wanted to know if there's alternative or better option that is popular in 18".(reason I started this thread)
For example, I heard about Seas ROY's reputation in DIY field, but couldn't find something like that in 18".
Considering replies I've get, guess no such thing exists; maybe I'll just go for um18.
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Hi,
Remember, 10hz is not going to be heard. Only potentially felt. And you won't feel it at 90db hardly at all. The lower the frequency the less perception you will have of it other than the pressure feeling. 10hz to 20hz is like that. 20hz you might hear some, if your hearing is still very good. Otherwise, from about 22hz and up you'll hear things. 90db is not very much in low frequencies. 90db at 21hz for example is soft. Yet 90db at 200hz or 2khz or 20khz is loud. We don't hear frequencies in bass as well as we do in mids and treble. So if your goal is low frequencies, you need to be able to get it higher than 90db. Shoot for 105db as a minimum probably, if you can, and then lower it as needed.
That said, 10hz is no joke, building subs to get good response down to 10hz is not going to come cheaply without a large array of drivers in an infinite baffle, or just building really big sealed subs with some large 21" or larger drivers. Even 18's will not easily do 10hz. A lot of what you'll get is based on the room and placement, less so much just the driver and enclosure and power. The room matters paramount. But again 10hz is no joke. If you truly want to get down to 10hz, your best approach for simplicity would likely be a sealed enclosure and lots and lots of power so that you can DSP/EQ to get it flat. I would argue for 21" drivers if you really want 10hz.
If 18~20hz is fine, and up, then you have a lot more options and its doable with way more practical gear, such as 15" drivers to 18" drivers, various enclosures from 3 cubic feet or more and with a lot less power to get there. Especially with 4 of them.
I think you'll need to really make the distinction if you want subs for movies that you hear. Or if you want to build around ultra low frequencies you cannot hear, but only really feel. It's a profoundly different thing building for ultra low frequencies. It's not easy and it will require lots of work on the room itself to really get there.
Very best,
BMS 18N862 in a rigid sealed enclosure, I am building a second, 4 would be insane, I get down very low with one, I can follow the Harman curve down to 5Hz with one off these. I am adding a second for a little more cone area and help with the sub 20Hz workload. I will use these to 40Hz. This enclosure is 140L internal
The above mentioned BMS 18N862 is one of the best 18" you will find for Sub duty, and the price is not totally outrageous 500$ each or so depending on where.
Low distortion, low and linear inductance, well behaved response, klippel measurements are good, 19mm xmax, but takes some power to drive it. Also pretty much loved everywhere you can read about it. Cone is fairly light weight and inductance low so it plays cleanly higher then most 18", especially those commonly used for subs. Hard to go wrong with this driver, works well as sealed and ported.
If looking for the 'ultimate ULF/ELF driver, there are better options for that, at the cost of efficiency and ability to cross higher.
https://data-bass.com/#/drivers?sort=splsens:1,mfr:-1,name:-1&_k=ii4wal
Low distortion, low and linear inductance, well behaved response, klippel measurements are good, 19mm xmax, but takes some power to drive it. Also pretty much loved everywhere you can read about it. Cone is fairly light weight and inductance low so it plays cleanly higher then most 18", especially those commonly used for subs. Hard to go wrong with this driver, works well as sealed and ported.
If looking for the 'ultimate ULF/ELF driver, there are better options for that, at the cost of efficiency and ability to cross higher.
https://data-bass.com/#/drivers?sort=splsens:1,mfr:-1,name:-1&_k=ii4wal
I added volume and db until I started to show compression. Then backed off until no compression I'm 104db at 10Hz and 100db at 5Hz, 20Hz I am 107db. I am rolling off at 41 Hz at 48db/Octave
Looking at the measured distortions I was nearer 10% at 10 Hz as you get near 100 db. This was at the MLP so 3.5m away from the sub. The amp I a gutsy 500W into 4 Ohm and this is a 4 Ohm driver.
After everyone telling me I was over engineering the cabinet, Since I have had many conversations where those with more knowledge than me like Faital Pro designers. Who have said, great you built a low frequency enclosure properly, most just use a weak, lightly braced MDF box and dont get the performance .....
I also looked at every driver I could, regardless of cost and was interested in Fs,MMs,Xmax,sensitivity and modelled performance, this was the nest In could find and it has a lot of followers
My room is 5.1m x 5m x 2.5m
Looking at the measured distortions I was nearer 10% at 10 Hz as you get near 100 db. This was at the MLP so 3.5m away from the sub. The amp I a gutsy 500W into 4 Ohm and this is a 4 Ohm driver.
After everyone telling me I was over engineering the cabinet, Since I have had many conversations where those with more knowledge than me like Faital Pro designers. Who have said, great you built a low frequency enclosure properly, most just use a weak, lightly braced MDF box and dont get the performance .....
I also looked at every driver I could, regardless of cost and was interested in Fs,MMs,Xmax,sensitivity and modelled performance, this was the nest In could find and it has a lot of followers
My room is 5.1m x 5m x 2.5m
It surprises me that single- and double-bass arrays do not get the popularity I feel they deserve. Going to try it on my new HT. Do you have any experience of them?
I use 4 x 18" 50l sealed subs (Q 0.5) in my 'pub' PA system, and trust me - it will be enough for home theatre! They use RCF 700W drivers, but I have found sealed enclosures to be very tolerant of driver spec.
Sorry, no real life experience, as I never had any room that would need such an installation. My listening rooms have always been shaped completely irregularly. My actual room does not even have a single pronounced mode, because it is large, high and odd shaped. Anyway, if you have a dedicated HT room, this should be worth a try. Everything I read about it was very positive and the theory is quite logical and promising.