I intend to make a similar post on the tube forum. I hope that is acceptable.
Hello! I am trying to decide what sort of preamplifier / amplifier to choose for my system, and I have heard that tube amps do 3D holographic soundstaging and imaging better than solid state. Is there any truth to this?
This 3D immersive holographic sound is my biggest priority for my decision here, so would I be better off with tubes? If so should I do tube preamp or power amp? (I would prefer not to do both, and ideally neither)
I don't like how inefficient tubes are, I don't like that you have to replace them all the time, I don't like that they heat up rooms. I know they measure poorly but I don't care about that really. They sure do look cool though
Anyways, I will do whatever it takes to get the most enveloping imaging possible, but my fingers are crossed this doesn't mean I have to buy tubes. What do you think? Thanks!
Hello! I am trying to decide what sort of preamplifier / amplifier to choose for my system, and I have heard that tube amps do 3D holographic soundstaging and imaging better than solid state. Is there any truth to this?
This 3D immersive holographic sound is my biggest priority for my decision here, so would I be better off with tubes? If so should I do tube preamp or power amp? (I would prefer not to do both, and ideally neither)
I don't like how inefficient tubes are, I don't like that you have to replace them all the time, I don't like that they heat up rooms. I know they measure poorly but I don't care about that really. They sure do look cool though
Anyways, I will do whatever it takes to get the most enveloping imaging possible, but my fingers are crossed this doesn't mean I have to buy tubes. What do you think? Thanks!
I see. I apologize in that case. I guess my line of thinking was that different people frequent each forum, so for the purpose of getting both perspectives I would have to ask both forums
IMO you are barking up the wrong tree
if imaging is your priority, you should focus on the speaker.
find one with flat frequency response and smooth directivity
place them optimally in a well-treated room
if imaging is your priority, you should focus on the speaker.
find one with flat frequency response and smooth directivity
place them optimally in a well-treated room
Indeed. I am pretty much covered on that front. However, I have experienced firsthand that the other components can play a role in soundstage depth
I get 3D holographic sound in my systems, not a tube in sight. I have compared my amp with a tube amp and yes, the tube amp had a tad more 'air' or 'bloom' but it wasn't a huge difference. So I'd say you definitely don't need tubes to get the sound you're after.
What I found worked really well are both tubes and solid state gear... but the trick was a straightforward approach in their design... and high-quality transformers. I listened to 2A3 and 6S33S single-ended class A tube amplifiers that sounded very nice... holographic. Both required fairly efficient speakers. However, they did not actually sound what I'd call natural. They were both colouring the sound to make it easy on the ear. Many people love that sound.
I believe that, once you have sorted out the source and the speakers... a DC-coupled, 2 gain stage single-ended class A solid-state amplifier will give you better, more natural sound, with much better extension, separation., lower distortions... you name it.
But... you have to have a good source and speakers... then, the valve amp will sound too colourful... nevertheless, many people love good valve amplifier sound... not to mention the valve glow/beauty.
I think the components' synergy and personal taste is all that counts here....
Also, if you get a chance.. try to visit a recording studio... listen to their studio monitors/studio sound. That will confuse you... totally! You'll re-think the valve sound approach altogether.
I believe that, once you have sorted out the source and the speakers... a DC-coupled, 2 gain stage single-ended class A solid-state amplifier will give you better, more natural sound, with much better extension, separation., lower distortions... you name it.
But... you have to have a good source and speakers... then, the valve amp will sound too colourful... nevertheless, many people love good valve amplifier sound... not to mention the valve glow/beauty.
I think the components' synergy and personal taste is all that counts here....
Also, if you get a chance.. try to visit a recording studio... listen to their studio monitors/studio sound. That will confuse you... totally! You'll re-think the valve sound approach altogether.
It's mostly the speaker and the room. The electronics do make a difference, but not nearly as much as the speaker and the room.
Holography does not apply to sound unless you're a bat 😉 .
Please refrain from using big words you don't understand.
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Its hard to turn words in literature and especially words in forums to actually perceived sound and vice versa. I speculate what one means with holographic sound there needs to be envelopment and good imaging, but thats only how I've interpreted the words 😀 and is probably same target as I have, probably many others, never minding the words. Speakers should disappear and feeling that one is listening within buble of soubd, instead outside of it.
For me, there was definitely a jump up in getting better sound from a Denon mini amp to PMA1500AE, which is (they say) high current MOSFET amp. And even slightly better with a SE tube amp with a dual power triode (cheap Chinese one). All that with high efficiency speakers. So maybe lack of crossover distortion has its effect - or I was fooled by the euphonic addition to original sound. All the same source, only amp change.
That depends.
In my direct experience Ive had a 45 DHT preamp transform sound stage at home. Compared to a sophisticated Class A SS preamp and quality TVC what stood out was:
1. depth of sound stage, with instruments suddenly projected much further behind and in front of the speakers
2. vivid holographic like imaging - with eyes closed it was easy to visualise instruments discretely placed in a 3D sound stage. I had the weird experience of wanting to reach out and touch the musicians as they seemed to be palpably inhabiting the room.
3. More importantly an improved natural timbre representation of acoustic instruments.
Ive also heard equally excellent 3D sound stage visiting a great but much more expensive all SS system with a superb R2R DAC feeding superb speakers set up expertly in a huge room, but it lacked the timbre reality trick of the DHT pre.
Ive also heard DHT pre's that did nothing except gloss over the micro details and muddy the tone.
Of course the rational punters will understandably take exception to any user report that a DHT pre could benefit the musical experience. Expect the usual logical criticisms like tubes distort and colour the sound, that a preamp cant add any sense of musical improvement that isnt already on the recording, that these ideas are self delusions and that you shouldn't use similes.
A tube preamp doesn't put out much heat, the tubes last ages and a really good DHT can transform a great system. If you are about getting into music and love acoustic instruments a great DHT pre may be worth hearing. As for the power amp there's lots of good things about a SS power stage. Tube pre into a SS power can be the best of all worlds.
Disclosure: Im not in business, not selling any gear and dont care if I listen to tubes or SS. Please dont ask me what models or gear I listened to. Im not going to promote or denigrate any brands as its all system dependent. Thanks.
Jacques antoine, jeah kind of, except the bubble is stuck inside the head with headphones 😀 People want different things I assume, which is fine. I've read many occasions that some speakers are described as giant headphones, perhaps someone likes it while others don't.
Its bit problematic to communicate the stuff as different words mean different things to people. Even if they were imagining same or similar perceptual thing there can be misunderstanding because of different meaning of words, which should be discussed first to get common ground. Its good thing you brought it up, about meaning of words.
Its bit problematic to communicate the stuff as different words mean different things to people. Even if they were imagining same or similar perceptual thing there can be misunderstanding because of different meaning of words, which should be discussed first to get common ground. Its good thing you brought it up, about meaning of words.
It's all about translating perceptions into words.
People seem to forget that sound pressure can be perceived by body parts other than ears.
If you are familiar with live rock concerts, the chest in particular is sensitive to the lower spectrum.
Your neighbours will hate you if you recreate, at home, a 3D imaging of that 😵.
I use 'soundstage' to describe what he means. Its well defined by audio magazines.
https://www.stereophile.com/content/sounds-audio-glossary-glossary-r-s
You think so? Perhaps you should post pics of your listening room, speakers, electronics.
Perception of depth might be to do with dynamics, less dynamics the more flat the thing appears to be. More dynamics and stuff jumps to face. Similarly more top treble seems be perceived closer and less treble makes things further back. Then there is cues in the source material and reflections in room that give cues for brain about size and location of things.
Here is about dynamics amplifiers have effect on https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ion-of-low-order-nonlinear-distortions.34863/
Then, rather recent realization for me from Purifi low distortion crossover tech note was that driver is generating third order harmonics in non-linear motors and audibility of that depends on impedance in the circuit, which is affected by amplifier output impedance as well. Less driver distortion when driver load is high, series impedance in the circuit amplifier and possible crossover network are also part of. Means that low output impedance in amplifier allows driver distortion current to manifest into acoustic sound. Did not check which polarity this driver borne 3rd harmonic is but quickly reasoning its negative polarity (back-EMF), so compressive perception if using the above ASR thread as basis. Means that some amplifiers, with higher output impedance, might sound more dynamic and affect also this perceived depth not necessarily because of the amplifier sound or distortion but because loudspeaker driver generated distortion is changed, reduced. Well, at least this seems logical to me now but not sure if this actually happens, need to test it somehow.
Without actually knowing answer what makes holographic sound, it seems to me that almost all aspects of loudspeakers and the whole system touches it one way or another. No single magic trick to make it happen, thats only marketing, just problem free system design with no issues ignored and best sound is a possibility, unless ruined by the room and placement 🙂
Here is about dynamics amplifiers have effect on https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ion-of-low-order-nonlinear-distortions.34863/
Then, rather recent realization for me from Purifi low distortion crossover tech note was that driver is generating third order harmonics in non-linear motors and audibility of that depends on impedance in the circuit, which is affected by amplifier output impedance as well. Less driver distortion when driver load is high, series impedance in the circuit amplifier and possible crossover network are also part of. Means that low output impedance in amplifier allows driver distortion current to manifest into acoustic sound. Did not check which polarity this driver borne 3rd harmonic is but quickly reasoning its negative polarity (back-EMF), so compressive perception if using the above ASR thread as basis. Means that some amplifiers, with higher output impedance, might sound more dynamic and affect also this perceived depth not necessarily because of the amplifier sound or distortion but because loudspeaker driver generated distortion is changed, reduced. Well, at least this seems logical to me now but not sure if this actually happens, need to test it somehow.
Without actually knowing answer what makes holographic sound, it seems to me that almost all aspects of loudspeakers and the whole system touches it one way or another. No single magic trick to make it happen, thats only marketing, just problem free system design with no issues ignored and best sound is a possibility, unless ruined by the room and placement 🙂
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I don't agree completely.
Soundstage should be used only for live recording.
Soundstage in studio recording is mostly an artificial reconstruction.
That doesn't matter (much). There are studio fabrications that have very 3D and complex sound stages. All fake, but still rich and "holographic". Think of recent CGI. They are a lot of fun on the right system.