Currently have the Volt 2202/Morel Caw/538 ,MD32 tweeter in a passive cabinet .Driven by home built White noise 125 watt stereo amplifier.All vishay and high quality parts.
I would like to go active due to needing better quality louder sound in a much larger room.
Need help and advice as I have seen some half decent active crossover kit both 2 way and 3 way. K M Tech design Burnley UK.
I have enormous amounts of bits left over from previous projects including cabinets heatsinks etc the lot.
My source is now just a modified Denon 3910 player plus an unmodded version.
Passive all vishay Volume pot. (Passion?) All sacd/fi rez as I can still hear the difference.
My thinking was either Use a plate amp ready made for the Volt 2202
and the White noise for mids and also make/purchase a half decent amp for the tweeters.
Possibly 50ish plus watt for tweeters.
Alternative is build another.😱
Probably want to use the existing xover points 450 and 3500? However plate amps Ive seen usually adjustable only up to 200 hz point .
I gather that the Morel mid will go down that deep and is in enclosed portion of speaker cabinet.
Any suggestions thoughts (Volunteers?🙂😀)
thanks in advance 😕
I would like to go active due to needing better quality louder sound in a much larger room.
Need help and advice as I have seen some half decent active crossover kit both 2 way and 3 way. K M Tech design Burnley UK.
I have enormous amounts of bits left over from previous projects including cabinets heatsinks etc the lot.
My source is now just a modified Denon 3910 player plus an unmodded version.
Passive all vishay Volume pot. (Passion?) All sacd/fi rez as I can still hear the difference.
My thinking was either Use a plate amp ready made for the Volt 2202
and the White noise for mids and also make/purchase a half decent amp for the tweeters.
Possibly 50ish plus watt for tweeters.
Alternative is build another.😱
Probably want to use the existing xover points 450 and 3500? However plate amps Ive seen usually adjustable only up to 200 hz point .
I gather that the Morel mid will go down that deep and is in enclosed portion of speaker cabinet.
Any suggestions thoughts (Volunteers?🙂😀)
thanks in advance 😕
Hi, Since you already have the passive filter components, you could start with a part active set-up from bass to mid and keep the mid/tweet passive. You'd still get most of the active improvements with two (good) amps and can get the 3rd one funds allowing.
( Get a 3 way xo to cover future needs)
Eventually upgrade some components in the passive xo.
Just my 2c
( Get a 3 way xo to cover future needs)
Eventually upgrade some components in the passive xo.
Just my 2c
Hi and many thanks
Yes I had considered this as an option and it would in deed be the easiest
way. Probably looking for someone who has played around with either of the two bottom units.Cost is not really a problem.
A plate amplifier exist for 200 hz xover..Makes it even easier.
Must admit I have been playing around with speaker design for over 30 years but never really achieved what I want to hear except with a rather simple second order xover with the Volt 2202 and similar for the tweeter in a two way set up.However volume levels became a problem in upper range of bass/mid.
This would be a bigger problem in the bigger room.
I added the mid range to the otiginal studio monitors and then bought Allegro cabinets to try and resolve the problem and gave up after the Wilmslow audio design didnt sound right and I varied the components but eventually was happier with a first order / 2 order on the three way as I suspect the mid range is slightly under sensitive at 85/86 db level..
Going active was the only way I could see around it.
Quality of parts not really an issue.Have numerous high end caps (even the odd teflon)
Yes I had considered this as an option and it would in deed be the easiest
way. Probably looking for someone who has played around with either of the two bottom units.Cost is not really a problem.
A plate amplifier exist for 200 hz xover..Makes it even easier.
Must admit I have been playing around with speaker design for over 30 years but never really achieved what I want to hear except with a rather simple second order xover with the Volt 2202 and similar for the tweeter in a two way set up.However volume levels became a problem in upper range of bass/mid.
This would be a bigger problem in the bigger room.
I added the mid range to the otiginal studio monitors and then bought Allegro cabinets to try and resolve the problem and gave up after the Wilmslow audio design didnt sound right and I varied the components but eventually was happier with a first order / 2 order on the three way as I suspect the mid range is slightly under sensitive at 85/86 db level..
Going active was the only way I could see around it.
Quality of parts not really an issue.Have numerous high end caps (even the odd teflon)
Either build a big amp (I'd say 400W +) or buy a module from BK Electronics. Or a pro amp.
The filters in amps will probably not give the acoustic response required.
Have a look at the thread designing crossovers without measurements, as it sounds like you need to do some reading up.
The filters in amps will probably not give the acoustic response required.
Have a look at the thread designing crossovers without measurements, as it sounds like you need to do some reading up.
Hi many thanks for the link to a very very good thread.Only wish I had all that information posted 45 years ago I would have ignored several if not lots of technical advice .Explanations went a long way to refresh these old grey cells.
Also think Allen B deserves a medal for his efforts.Way beyond the normal call of duty. It was really helpful even though it is mainly passive crossovering...their was enough info re active units to encourage me to carry on.
After page thirty one semi exhausted ,I thought I could ask a few questions not covered which have occured to me over the many years which might help someone.
Meanwhile due to lack of enough energy ie medical reasons I will probably go for the simplest way of getting the system running as per c37 suggestion and to that end I will go active for bass and risk using the Boston XS plate amplifiers for the two Volt 2202 and see how they intergrate with the Morel (boxed in CAW538).
Just have to decide where put them. Room 28ft x 15 x 10ft)
If this gets close then I will then fine tune the crossover point when I go active..2nd or 4th order
Will have to use some test tones for now and also use the existing tweeters 2nd order xovers for mid upper and tweeter. (MD32S)
Historically I have always preferred less parts in a crossover from a sonic point of view and 3d imagery is a major factor in my enjoyment a long with tonal accuracy.
Once again many thanks.
Also think Allen B deserves a medal for his efforts.Way beyond the normal call of duty. It was really helpful even though it is mainly passive crossovering...their was enough info re active units to encourage me to carry on.
After page thirty one semi exhausted ,I thought I could ask a few questions not covered which have occured to me over the many years which might help someone.
Meanwhile due to lack of enough energy ie medical reasons I will probably go for the simplest way of getting the system running as per c37 suggestion and to that end I will go active for bass and risk using the Boston XS plate amplifiers for the two Volt 2202 and see how they intergrate with the Morel (boxed in CAW538).
Just have to decide where put them. Room 28ft x 15 x 10ft)
If this gets close then I will then fine tune the crossover point when I go active..2nd or 4th order
Will have to use some test tones for now and also use the existing tweeters 2nd order xovers for mid upper and tweeter. (MD32S)
Historically I have always preferred less parts in a crossover from a sonic point of view and 3d imagery is a major factor in my enjoyment a long with tonal accuracy.
Once again many thanks.
In case you need it, online signal generator: Sine Waveform | Online Sine Tone Wave File Generator
You can download them as .wav
Best,
You can download them as .wav
Best,
Once again a big thank you and these and a few of the other tests will prove useful on top of the stuff I have already.
Of interest I found the Boston XO plate amplifiers a re 24db slops with a 180hz xover (and phase reversal switch.) Also thay are going to have to be in a seperate box as Im using a passive preamp (Short interconnects needed here) and also I am not prepared to mess about with the Allegro cabinets .
So i am not exactly sure what I will gain or prove testing with a natural roll off at ???? hz . I Just hope its lower than 180hz.or I am going to have a hole between the two lower units when I go active..
This has made me rethink the possible end game ie I will have to go 24 bit 3 way crossover (LinkRiley)
The spec sheets from each of the units show a rising impedence to 12 ish ohms at approx 86db sensitivity. mid and tweeter 90db I can get away with around about 50 watt amp or less for the tweeter.(active)
unless anyone tells me different.
Alternative is for me to design some gain into the active xovers...Starts getting into a bit of a brain herz sitaution. Meanwhile I am going to have to get all my housework finished as the wife has got wind of the changes...
Of interest I found the Boston XO plate amplifiers a re 24db slops with a 180hz xover (and phase reversal switch.) Also thay are going to have to be in a seperate box as Im using a passive preamp (Short interconnects needed here) and also I am not prepared to mess about with the Allegro cabinets .
So i am not exactly sure what I will gain or prove testing with a natural roll off at ???? hz . I Just hope its lower than 180hz.or I am going to have a hole between the two lower units when I go active..
This has made me rethink the possible end game ie I will have to go 24 bit 3 way crossover (LinkRiley)
The spec sheets from each of the units show a rising impedence to 12 ish ohms at approx 86db sensitivity. mid and tweeter 90db I can get away with around about 50 watt amp or less for the tweeter.(active)
unless anyone tells me different.Alternative is for me to design some gain into the active xovers...Starts getting into a bit of a brain herz sitaution. Meanwhile I am going to have to get all my housework finished as the wife has got wind of the changes...
raffajaffa, I think you dropped a brick in going for that Morel CAW 538 midwoofer. Morel CAW 538 5" Cast Frame Woofer. It's only 85dB sensitivity and not matched to the Volt BM 220.8 if I am guessing the right Volt polypropylene Model.
The Allegro looks pretty good to me: ALLEGRO
A 5" Scanspeak or SEAS 90dB paper mid looks much better. I think you'd just have a better 3 way there, even on a passive crossover.
Then reuse the Morel CAW 538, and even the Morel MDT 32 tweeter for a nice little two-way.
The Allegro looks pretty good to me: ALLEGRO
A 5" Scanspeak or SEAS 90dB paper mid looks much better. I think you'd just have a better 3 way there, even on a passive crossover.
Then reuse the Morel CAW 538, and even the Morel MDT 32 tweeter for a nice little two-way.
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Hi Steve and thanks for comments and you may be correct as I have probably already given that impression.I will try to provide a longer details explanation of this long drawn out saga soon.Includes visits to WA (150 miles round trip and disappointment at demo using mundane cd/Sony amp)
I had in fact heard the Morel 2 way earlier demo with Audiosynthesis amp which I was familair.
BTW. These Morel units were in the first version WA version of the Allegro .Im also convinced the xover was theoretical. It works for the bookshelf speaker.
I had in fact heard the Morel 2 way earlier demo with Audiosynthesis amp which I was familair.
BTW. These Morel units were in the first version WA version of the Allegro .Im also convinced the xover was theoretical. It works for the bookshelf speaker.
update, Bad news ish.
Having now installed the speakers after house removal, it is now conclusive that a Morel 32s tweeter is damaged.Possibly been going for some time? Scavanging the net I found one comment that its possible for UV sunlight to damage these? Curious never heard that one before?. I suspect a borrowed amp that has blown just before we moved has taken out the unit do I am now double checking the midrange..
Luckily replacement parts are an easy fit and relatively cheap at £22.
So I will get the system normalized before going any further.
...
I will like to post the 2nd order xover circuit here as its really weird in my opinion.
bass roll off is 3.3mh and 40Mf .........450hz ish
top is 8Mf and .25mh with 2.7R
mid is ?
30 Mf and 2.2Mh ??? with
10Mf and 1.0Mh
Any comments would be appreciated.
Having now installed the speakers after house removal, it is now conclusive that a Morel 32s tweeter is damaged.Possibly been going for some time? Scavanging the net I found one comment that its possible for UV sunlight to damage these? Curious never heard that one before?. I suspect a borrowed amp that has blown just before we moved has taken out the unit do I am now double checking the midrange..
Luckily replacement parts are an easy fit and relatively cheap at £22.
So I will get the system normalized before going any further.
...
I will like to post the 2nd order xover circuit here as its really weird in my opinion.
bass roll off is 3.3mh and 40Mf .........450hz ish
top is 8Mf and .25mh with 2.7R
mid is ?
30 Mf and 2.2Mh ??? with
10Mf and 1.0Mh
Any comments would be appreciated.
finished it off at last
I will like to post the 2nd order xover circuit here as its really weird in my opinion.
bass roll off is 3.3mh and 40Mf .........450hz ish
top is 8Mf and .25mh with 2.7R
mid is ?
30 Mf and 2.2Mh ??? with
10Mf and 1.0Mh
Any comments would be appreciated.[/QUOTE]
Well its taken a long time mostly trial and error but the crossover and speaker is now finished.
A build of a new amplifier on another thread , http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid-state/196089-l12-2-cfp-output-amp-120w-2-8r-21.html was also involved during this long process.
A couple of things that I have identified as part of the problem in getting it to sound the
way I wanted it are as follows.
Previously I had omitted the 8.2r resistor for Zobel.This was due to previous bad experiences.
Obviously the tweeter problem did not help but I also read up on solidifying the inductors using laquer etc and making them as solid as a rock ?
I have to admit this was pretty poor from me considering the number of physical tweaks I had included in the cabinet construction.
The xover midrange top Ive settled on is 12.230uf and .990 mh which is heavier than most would advise but close to WA advised (3 different sets of advice?) bottom rolloff is very close at 2.5mh and 26.522 uf or therabouts as I am yet to finish amplifier mods with even more vishays which will be .01 percent as these seem the only ones around.
All capacitor leads are now silver and all caps bypassed.
I will like to post the 2nd order xover circuit here as its really weird in my opinion.
bass roll off is 3.3mh and 40Mf .........450hz ish
top is 8Mf and .25mh with 2.7R
mid is ?
30 Mf and 2.2Mh ??? with
10Mf and 1.0Mh
Any comments would be appreciated.[/QUOTE]
Well its taken a long time mostly trial and error but the crossover and speaker is now finished.
A build of a new amplifier on another thread , http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid-state/196089-l12-2-cfp-output-amp-120w-2-8r-21.html was also involved during this long process.
A couple of things that I have identified as part of the problem in getting it to sound the
way I wanted it are as follows.
Previously I had omitted the 8.2r resistor for Zobel.This was due to previous bad experiences.
Obviously the tweeter problem did not help but I also read up on solidifying the inductors using laquer etc and making them as solid as a rock ?
I have to admit this was pretty poor from me considering the number of physical tweaks I had included in the cabinet construction.
The xover midrange top Ive settled on is 12.230uf and .990 mh which is heavier than most would advise but close to WA advised (3 different sets of advice?) bottom rolloff is very close at 2.5mh and 26.522 uf or therabouts as I am yet to finish amplifier mods with even more vishays which will be .01 percent as these seem the only ones around.
All capacitor leads are now silver and all caps bypassed.
Change of mind Now some questions
Well its taken a long time mostly trial and error but the crossover and speaker is now finished. < spoke tooo soon >
A build of a new amplifier on another thread , http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid-state/196089-l12-2-cfp-output-amp-120w-2-8r-21.html was also involved during this long process.
I have now abandoned the three way design and reverted to a simpler more efficient 2 way 1st order/2nd order using the Same Wilmslow audio cabinets and now have a couple of questions.
The Midrange cavity is now empty appart from some light stuffing and a replacement speaker plate.This begs the question Can I open up this sealed area to the rest of the internal speaker space by using a cutout in order to slightly enlarge the speaker volume for the rears of the Volt 2208.Vas 47L .?
If so can this hole size be used for specific very fine tuning./
I must admity I have never come across this subject before in hifi,though I have read variations on the theme many many years ago.
ALLEGRO
Volt Loudspeakers | BM220.8 (8″)
Well its taken a long time mostly trial and error but the crossover and speaker is now finished.
< spoke tooo soon > A build of a new amplifier on another thread , http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid-state/196089-l12-2-cfp-output-amp-120w-2-8r-21.html was also involved during this long process.
I have now abandoned the three way design and reverted to a simpler more efficient 2 way 1st order/2nd order using the Same Wilmslow audio cabinets and now have a couple of questions.
The Midrange cavity is now empty appart from some light stuffing and a replacement speaker plate.This begs the question Can I open up this sealed area to the rest of the internal speaker space by using a cutout in order to slightly enlarge the speaker volume for the rears of the Volt 2208.Vas 47L .?
If so can this hole size be used for specific very fine tuning./
I must admity I have never come across this subject before in hifi,though I have read variations on the theme many many years ago.
ALLEGRO
Volt Loudspeakers | BM220.8 (8″)
wilmslow auio kit now 2 way
Ok As no one has replied to this off the wall request I can report that
I drilled 3 x 8mm holes in the rear of the mid range internally sealed box.
Filled it with light absorbing material.
This in theory could allow a weird but small difference to the rear cabinet speaker loading.?
Wow was it a success. Very small difference in bass clarity notes.
Now Seems slightly more like a musical bass note, live..
Left it for a while and after a week I drilled another three holes.
The latter effort made a much smaller sonic difference but was just noticable..
Going to call it a day at this point.
Their is obvious a science behind all this.I just dont know
how it could be measured/theorized.
Dave
Ok As no one has replied to this off the wall request I can report that
I drilled 3 x 8mm holes in the rear of the mid range internally sealed box.
Filled it with light absorbing material.
This in theory could allow a weird but small difference to the rear cabinet speaker loading.?
Wow was it a success. Very small difference in bass clarity notes.
Now Seems slightly more like a musical bass note, live..
Left it for a while and after a week I drilled another three holes.
The latter effort made a much smaller sonic difference but was just noticable..
Going to call it a day at this point.
Their is obvious a science behind all this.I just dont know
how it could be measured/theorized.
Dave
ANOTHER RETHINH RE aLLEGRO PASSIVE/ACTIBE /SUBWOOFER
HI and I know this was an old thread but a rethink was in order as I decided to go back to a 5.25 inch mid and used a pair from the Mission m71i and also am using its crossover and currently the tweeters. . Yep the xover parts may suck but i hope to modify thm with better pp caps and resistors.
I could also be tempted to keep the morel tweeters.
Only using the two speakers and tweeters I am considering activating the 2 x 2208 Volt woofers. My amp is the Rotel modified to .00004 distotion but sounds less musical than it did before. Its still bedeckt with wonderfull Vishay resistors but some were removed..????
I also have a Mission M2sas subwoofer lying around and was considering using it for driving both those volt 2208s for that area below 100hz. Far easier than designing a pair of xovers , especially for me, Its speakers is <4 ohm so one option is to use my speaker volt 2208 in parallel. Lots of benefits this way ie volume level and xover point.
Any theories , suggestions or references to being sent to the asylum (not been there before) would be considered helpful..🙂-)
HI and I know this was an old thread but a rethink was in order as I decided to go back to a 5.25 inch mid and used a pair from the Mission m71i and also am using its crossover and currently the tweeters. . Yep the xover parts may suck but i hope to modify thm with better pp caps and resistors.
I could also be tempted to keep the morel tweeters.
Only using the two speakers and tweeters I am considering activating the 2 x 2208 Volt woofers. My amp is the Rotel modified to .00004 distotion but sounds less musical than it did before. Its still bedeckt with wonderfull Vishay resistors but some were removed..????
I also have a Mission M2sas subwoofer lying around and was considering using it for driving both those volt 2208s for that area below 100hz. Far easier than designing a pair of xovers , especially for me, Its speakers is <4 ohm so one option is to use my speaker volt 2208 in parallel. Lots of benefits this way ie volume level and xover point.
Any theories , suggestions or references to being sent to the asylum (not been there before) would be considered helpful..🙂-)
Volume level, yes (because of the lower Z seen by the amplifier so more power being sent to the speakers)
Xover point, no, because it's active so the speaker is directly driven by the amplifier. If the speaker was [limited in frequency extension] by the means of a passive network, then, yes, the LCR components should be tailored to the particular driver [speaker], so if changing the speaker and in particular you change the Z [impedance] that would alter the Xover point, for a given crossover.
active/ passive
Thanks for quick reply .hm not sure I explained it well enough. The Wilmslow speaker has an internal sealed box for the new mission mid. So there is a natural roll off which I havent yet measured the performance and its roll off point in its new box. I could put a rear port ,identical to the Mission m71i easily enough.
. I expect total roll off to be around the 100-150 hz>point Before trying the new subwoofer amps on the currently NOT connected Volts. . ? It does not have any bottom end roll off parts in the xover... Just the Mission xover for /approx 3.2k.
The matching up of the subwoofer and decision on which frequency was going to be done mainly by ear and is simply controlled by the subqwoofers volume/fq pots. It even has a simple reverse phase switch for me to play around with.
The subwoofer has a digital amp. the top two units will have the Rotel.
Hope that is better explanation.
Thanks for quick reply .hm not sure I explained it well enough. The Wilmslow speaker has an internal sealed box for the new mission mid. So there is a natural roll off which I havent yet measured the performance and its roll off point in its new box. I could put a rear port ,identical to the Mission m71i easily enough.
. I expect total roll off to be around the 100-150 hz>point Before trying the new subwoofer amps on the currently NOT connected Volts. . ? It does not have any bottom end roll off parts in the xover... Just the Mission xover for /approx 3.2k.
The matching up of the subwoofer and decision on which frequency was going to be done mainly by ear and is simply controlled by the subqwoofers volume/fq pots. It even has a simple reverse phase switch for me to play around with.
The subwoofer has a digital amp. the top two units will have the Rotel.
Hope that is better explanation.
Yes, I understand ( not at all, but quite...)
I was only giving you some " scientific lesson" about your last period, where the Xover point is not concerned by the passive components- because there aren't any after the amplifier in an active subwoofer.
About the HP...High Pass....which equates to your "bottom end roll off parts" 🙄😛
I was only giving you some " scientific lesson" about your last period, where the Xover point is not concerned by the passive components- because there aren't any after the amplifier in an active subwoofer.
About the HP...High Pass....which equates to your "bottom end roll off parts" 🙄😛