Does anyone know the best system to veneer a conventional rectangular loudspeaker cabinet?
The order of veneering. These are BIG cabs.
Do I veneer the surfaces in the order:
1. bottom 2. back 3. front 4. sides 5. top?
I just want to make sure that I choose the best option for the order of veneering.
Thank you
The order of veneering. These are BIG cabs.
Do I veneer the surfaces in the order:
1. bottom 2. back 3. front 4. sides 5. top?
I just want to make sure that I choose the best option for the order of veneering.
Thank you
IMO it doesn't really matter since veneer is so thin. You won't see the edges. Start on the back and bottom for practice.
More important is choosing your method of attachment. Iron on with PVA is probably easiest.
More important is choosing your method of attachment. Iron on with PVA is probably easiest.
I always use Evostik, timebond preferably or a thixotropic contact adhesive. Paint the surface with ample glue and lay the veneer from one side and rub well as you place it on the wood.
I always put the front on last, so that you don't see even the small edge.
Also, I used wood glue, layered on to both surfaces, allowed to dry, then ironed on. I did my main speakers this way 10 years ago and no sign of peeling or bubbling. The one thing to watch for is that the moisture content of the veneer needs to be low otherwise it'll shrink and crack when you iron it. Try it on scrap or a non-visible spot before you commit.
Also, I used wood glue, layered on to both surfaces, allowed to dry, then ironed on. I did my main speakers this way 10 years ago and no sign of peeling or bubbling. The one thing to watch for is that the moisture content of the veneer needs to be low otherwise it'll shrink and crack when you iron it. Try it on scrap or a non-visible spot before you commit.
Thank you, that's very useful information. And do you think that there is a best way to conceal the edges of the veneer by putting the panels on in a certain order? ie base first, etc.
Anyone got any experience of potassium permanganate to darken wood? 🙂 Seriously?
Anyone got any experience of potassium permanganate to darken wood? 🙂 Seriously?
If you're talking about flexible paper backed sheet veneers, I've covered literally hundreds of boxes with the product, and would disagree with Greg B - some edges will definitely be seen - depending on the chosen species and final finishing colours / products, to what degree will vary. Also not that the backing paper may be either a very light tan- almost the colour corrugated cardboard- and others are a much darker, almost milk chocolate brown.
As a personal aesthetic, I often route a 45dg bevel to the long edges of front panel, around with the veneer can easily be folded in the long grain direction, and which when veneer is applied a certain order will be less visible. I also generally wrap the grain pattern around the sides / top/bottom as continuously as the dimensions will allow, as well as align seam of figuring/flitches on the center of front panel at least. Those I always attempt to match.
IOW if the overall perimeter is less than the normal 96" length of veneer sheet, a continuous wrap with hidden unmatched seam on the bottom is usually a piece of cake. When the overall dimensions of the pair/set of enclosures doesn't allow yield from a single full sheet, then decisions as to grain matching on the most visible patterns will be required . On larger enclosures, that can mean ordering several sheets of sequential grain matched veneer, and perhaps several hours of layup, marking and cutting.
My sequence is
1) Back (optional on larger enclosures)
2) Sides
3) Front
4) Top / Bottom
Of course on floor standing boxes, the bottom is redundant - I'll often add a painted inset spacer and base plinth, either painted, or Corian / Granite slab, and don't always veneer the back.
As a personal aesthetic, I often route a 45dg bevel to the long edges of front panel, around with the veneer can easily be folded in the long grain direction, and which when veneer is applied a certain order will be less visible. I also generally wrap the grain pattern around the sides / top/bottom as continuously as the dimensions will allow, as well as align seam of figuring/flitches on the center of front panel at least. Those I always attempt to match.
IOW if the overall perimeter is less than the normal 96" length of veneer sheet, a continuous wrap with hidden unmatched seam on the bottom is usually a piece of cake. When the overall dimensions of the pair/set of enclosures doesn't allow yield from a single full sheet, then decisions as to grain matching on the most visible patterns will be required . On larger enclosures, that can mean ordering several sheets of sequential grain matched veneer, and perhaps several hours of layup, marking and cutting.
My sequence is
1) Back (optional on larger enclosures)
2) Sides
3) Front
4) Top / Bottom
Of course on floor standing boxes, the bottom is redundant - I'll often add a painted inset spacer and base plinth, either painted, or Corian / Granite slab, and don't always veneer the back.
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Thanks Chris that is REALLY useful advice about the order of applying sheets. I will take your advice.
My veneer is creamy paper backed veneer 600mm wide x 2300mm long, and I had thought that the edge of the veneer might be visible which is why I asked about order. Unfortunately the cabs are 1100 tall and 500 wide, so I can't do the side top and other side with continuous joining pattern from one 2300 sheet.
Also I have considered after I received the veneer, that of course being one sided, it cannot be reversed to allow me to pattern match. Shame, I would have liked to have book-matched the front at least.
What do you think about using iron-on film with the paper backed veneer. Will it glue effectively?
I have now tried potassium permanganate solution for darkening the veneer and it looks quite good. Would you do this when the veneer has been applied and sanded (will it lift the veneer or weaken it?) , or before starting, when the moisture will warp it slightly?
I am making some stainless steel outrigger arms, spikes and adjusters for the base. Mostly done already.
My veneer is creamy paper backed veneer 600mm wide x 2300mm long, and I had thought that the edge of the veneer might be visible which is why I asked about order. Unfortunately the cabs are 1100 tall and 500 wide, so I can't do the side top and other side with continuous joining pattern from one 2300 sheet.
Also I have considered after I received the veneer, that of course being one sided, it cannot be reversed to allow me to pattern match. Shame, I would have liked to have book-matched the front at least.
What do you think about using iron-on film with the paper backed veneer. Will it glue effectively?
I have now tried potassium permanganate solution for darkening the veneer and it looks quite good. Would you do this when the veneer has been applied and sanded (will it lift the veneer or weaken it?) , or before starting, when the moisture will warp it slightly?
I am making some stainless steel outrigger arms, spikes and adjusters for the base. Mostly done already.
Be very careful with that potassium permanganate; it's quite poisonous. I think you pretty much have to do it after the veneer is on and sanded. I've not used the stuff, but that's what I do with ammonia if using it for darkening.
I defer to Chris on the veneer order, as he's obviously done more speaker boxes than me. And besides, I've only ever used veneer without paper backing. Forgot about that stuff.
I defer to Chris on the veneer order, as he's obviously done more speaker boxes than me. And besides, I've only ever used veneer without paper backing. Forgot about that stuff.
I agree with ChrisB's order of applying the veneer. Unless I am wrapping the veneer around three sides in one piece (the vertical edges are rounded over), I will select adjacent pieces of veneer for the front pieces of both cabinets. If possible, I will also select the pieces immediately above the front pieces for the tops. Because of the size of my cabinets, I often have to splice pieces for the back panels. So be it -- who cares about the backs anyway. Now if the cabinets are small enough, I can match the fronts and both sides between the two cabinets. After some experience, you learn to play with the grain pattern of your sheet of veneer.
Bob
Bob
Book-matching requires an absolutely straight edge on both pieces, and a very sharp veneer saw to cut it. And of course requires pieces that can be book-matched. You will only get that if you buy raw, consecutive cut, veneer. Paper backed will not be that way.
It is a very tedious process but the results can be spectacular.
It is a very tedious process but the results can be spectacular.
zacster: suppliers may vary of course, but the majority of the full sized flat sliced ( as opposed to quarter or rift cut) paper backed veneers I source from trade wholesalers generally contain several sets of book rather than slip-matched glitches in a 48" wide sheet- widths of each can vary by species- and given the opportunity to hand sort through open stock of a dozen or so sheets per type, it's not uncommon to find several that are close enough to sequential matching to pass muster
The 5 sheets I have for my 1100 x 450 x 495 cabs are paper backed engineered 'brazilian rosewood', (yeah, right!, but they're not too bad!) and are 2.3m long, 600mm wide, and all identical. So no really accurate matching is going to be possible.....and ceratinly no left & right handed couplets, flitch matching, ditch matching, kitsch matching, just bitch matching. But it'll be wood! And fairly ecologically sound! Christ I remember the 70s when I could get hold of real Braz Rosewood just about anywhere! I suppose I was part of the problem!
Apparently, when your veneer was manufactured, the alternate flitches were not flipped. To get the book-matched alternate pairs, you need a veneer with sufficient pattern to stand out. Such woods as African mahogany and zebrawood don't work well. I have no idea about your engineered Brazilian rosewood. I like black walnut, red/white oak, ash in plain cut. Quarter cut usually will not have enough pattern to be worth the effort. These speakers were done in walnut. the front, sides and tops all match as mirrored pairs.
Bob
Bob
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Bob - most of the "engineered" veneers we've seen & used here ( Brookside, etc) have no natural figuring - some bordering on emulating rift cut oak, loose/wide "vertical" grain Douglas Fir, or ribbon grain Sapele. My favorite of those was the Macassar Ebony, but some of these are over $120 Cdn a sheet.
Some of the loveliest patterned "affordables" I've used lately have been Black Walnut - definitely room in their figuring for some tasty statements, without the tiring flamboyancy of the expensive exotics/fruitwoods such as seen on some high end commercial products such as AudioNote or Devore that I've seen in a local dealer. Wonderful sounding, I'm sure, and excellent craftmanship - but just not my cuppa visually
Oh, and their prices are beyond my comfort zone 😀
Some of the loveliest patterned "affordables" I've used lately have been Black Walnut - definitely room in their figuring for some tasty statements, without the tiring flamboyancy of the expensive exotics/fruitwoods such as seen on some high end commercial products such as AudioNote or Devore that I've seen in a local dealer. Wonderful sounding, I'm sure, and excellent craftmanship - but just not my cuppa visually
Oh, and their prices are beyond my comfort zone 😀
tasty work Evan - the engineered veneers allow for some very interesting and repeatable geometric patterns
you know we get customers complaining when 100 or 120 lineal feet of clear coat finished natural VG fir wall paneling and dropped bulkhead isn't uniform colour across each seam when installed, and then after 6months of suntanning they see shadow patterns - shoulda gone with the P-lam maybe 😀, some of the most recent woodgrain textures are very impressive.
for splinters - 'specially under the fingernails - try wenge
you know we get customers complaining when 100 or 120 lineal feet of clear coat finished natural VG fir wall paneling and dropped bulkhead isn't uniform colour across each seam when installed, and then after 6months of suntanning they see shadow patterns - shoulda gone with the P-lam maybe 😀, some of the most recent woodgrain textures are very impressive.
for splinters - 'specially under the fingernails - try wenge
Sorry for the bump on this older thread but the info is spot on, I wanted to elaborate.
I wanr to veneer my mdf subwoofers, and also protect corners by rounding them. Straight edges are just asking to be chipped. What is the mininum radius to round the corners which still enables the veneer to be wrapped in 1 piece over the side-top-side without the veneer cracking?
Do you apply steam to bend the veneer when going from the side to the top? Thanks!
Very few of my builds incorporated radiused edges/ corners, but my guess would be a minimum of 3/4”. I never had issues that required steaming; folding around a 90dg or 45dg chamfered edge, or even a larger radius in the long grain direction was fairly simple. A large enough radius can even be wrapped cross grain, but around a fully rounded corner is a different story.
If you want to protect all 8 exposed edges of a floor sitting subwoofer box, you could try rabbeting solid hardwood edging after the veneering. But after a few dozen builds, I got lazy enough that the much faster approach of chamfering the edges won out.
I was always fussy about grain alignment around perimeter of boxes, and mirror imaging in the case of pairs or more. The veneer sheer was laid out with grain patterns such that one of the factory flitch joints was aligned with the centre of front & side panels, marked with sequence numbers and alignment arrows, then cut to approximately 1/4” over panel size. Probably the project I found most satisfying from that point of view was the one shown below. One single 4x8’ sheet of veneer, and most of a full day. There are actually two separate enclosures per side. Top & bottom of the smaller enclosures and the base plinths on woofer towers were solid Jatoba.
If you want to protect all 8 exposed edges of a floor sitting subwoofer box, you could try rabbeting solid hardwood edging after the veneering. But after a few dozen builds, I got lazy enough that the much faster approach of chamfering the edges won out.
I was always fussy about grain alignment around perimeter of boxes, and mirror imaging in the case of pairs or more. The veneer sheer was laid out with grain patterns such that one of the factory flitch joints was aligned with the centre of front & side panels, marked with sequence numbers and alignment arrows, then cut to approximately 1/4” over panel size. Probably the project I found most satisfying from that point of view was the one shown below. One single 4x8’ sheet of veneer, and most of a full day. There are actually two separate enclosures per side. Top & bottom of the smaller enclosures and the base plinths on woofer towers were solid Jatoba.
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