okay
My problem is that I've in my repair bench a receiver Denon AVR-1803 for the second time.
At first the problem was that the FR final output stage a (2sB1560&2sd2390) and the protection resistors (0.22 ohms and 4,7 Ohms) where blowned, and the stand by transformer was open to. After substitution of the dammage parts made the idling current adjustment; put it on test everything as gone well. so I've send it to my client. Two days after he told that the amp as worked only for 30 sec. and then stopped.
In the working bench again (And I do hate this kind of situation) checked the amp again with more accuracy. found a elect. Cap. that gives me a measurement of 20uf instead of 47uF. And this time in pre-amp many tr where blowned. Substitucion of tr resistors and output Tr and Cap.
Then testing again without conecting the +B and -B to the outputstage of FR to see with sinezoidal injector for distortion and checked again the power sources every thing seems to checked ok conected the outpustage to power source again burned the output stage and prot. resistors, and then checked again bloned again
.
So relax there must be something else but what? 😕
so started on checking HFe gain of TR ok everything was OK except for the new output stage TR (2sB1560&2sd2390) comparing with the old ones that worked fine in the receiver a big diference between the new 2sb1560 and the old ones for example the old 2sb1560 measures between base and emitter aprox. 3,64 Mohms the new ones measures 5,64Kohms. The 2sd2390 seems OK with a lite diference in measures of pins.
Then I've searched for the datasheet found that this receiver uses Darlington Power Transistors and my 2sb1560 is Epitaxial Planar Transistor and my new 2sd2390 is a Darlington Power Transistor and now I suspect that they will not work.
My questiion is for the expert's can I use a pair that are Epitaxial Planar Transistor or it will not be suported
All ideas are welcomed please
Can anyone cool me down
My problem is that I've in my repair bench a receiver Denon AVR-1803 for the second time.
At first the problem was that the FR final output stage a (2sB1560&2sd2390) and the protection resistors (0.22 ohms and 4,7 Ohms) where blowned, and the stand by transformer was open to. After substitution of the dammage parts made the idling current adjustment; put it on test everything as gone well. so I've send it to my client. Two days after he told that the amp as worked only for 30 sec. and then stopped.
In the working bench again (And I do hate this kind of situation) checked the amp again with more accuracy. found a elect. Cap. that gives me a measurement of 20uf instead of 47uF. And this time in pre-amp many tr where blowned. Substitucion of tr resistors and output Tr and Cap.
Then testing again without conecting the +B and -B to the outputstage of FR to see with sinezoidal injector for distortion and checked again the power sources every thing seems to checked ok conected the outpustage to power source again burned the output stage and prot. resistors, and then checked again bloned again
.So relax there must be something else but what? 😕
so started on checking HFe gain of TR ok everything was OK except for the new output stage TR (2sB1560&2sd2390) comparing with the old ones that worked fine in the receiver a big diference between the new 2sb1560 and the old ones for example the old 2sb1560 measures between base and emitter aprox. 3,64 Mohms the new ones measures 5,64Kohms. The 2sd2390 seems OK with a lite diference in measures of pins.
Then I've searched for the datasheet found that this receiver uses Darlington Power Transistors and my 2sb1560 is Epitaxial Planar Transistor and my new 2sd2390 is a Darlington Power Transistor and now I suspect that they will not work.
My questiion is for the expert's can I use a pair that are Epitaxial Planar Transistor or it will not be suported
All ideas are welcomed please
Can anyone cool me down
Well, wait a minute, when you say you measured the old 2sb1560, you were measuring the old defective transistor right?
You have to meausre a good transistor... Unless there is something I missed in your story. A good Darlington transistor should not measure so much resistance between base and emitter.
the 2SB1560 is a PNP darlington transistor, planar epitaxial is simply the technology used to make the transistor dies.
Also, are these transistors complementary? Or what? Can you post a schematic please?
That would always be great help.. for us to help you. I don't know of this amplifier, but suffice it to say, if you change the power transistors on one side (positive) then you need to change them on the other side. But then again, I am supposing you know that.
You have to meausre a good transistor... Unless there is something I missed in your story. A good Darlington transistor should not measure so much resistance between base and emitter.
the 2SB1560 is a PNP darlington transistor, planar epitaxial is simply the technology used to make the transistor dies.
Also, are these transistors complementary? Or what? Can you post a schematic please?
That would always be great help.. for us to help you. I don't know of this amplifier, but suffice it to say, if you change the power transistors on one side (positive) then you need to change them on the other side. But then again, I am supposing you know that.
ok
I've measured the new ones and then make the compare with the tr that are in the other channel's good ones. the one that match in measures is the 2SD2390 that i bought with a lite diference and 2sb1560 that I also bought is very diferent, like I've stated before. I would like to know the reason why?
I've attatched schematic of the output
I've measured the new ones and then make the compare with the tr that are in the other channel's good ones. the one that match in measures is the 2SD2390 that i bought with a lite diference and 2sb1560 that I also bought is very diferent, like I've stated before. I would like to know the reason why?
I've attatched schematic of the output
OKAY, thanks for the schematic, it is as I thought. They are pure complementary output transistors. First, are you testing the good channel's transistors in circuit, or did you remove them in order to measure them?
You cannot have good results if you are measuring them in the circuit. Also, are you measuring with your multimeter in OHMS mode, or in transistor-diode checking mode?
It might help if you reverse the leads when testing the PNP device... Otherwise your multimeter is actually biasing the transistor in reverse, it is made to connected to a forward-conducting device, like an NPN transistor or a diode.
Connect the red lead to the Emitter and the black lead to the Base.
You must have paid alot of money for those output transistors, they are in the TO-252 case, right?
A little word of advice: try reading the voltage on the pads where the output transistors go, while they are removed. You should get symmetrical values. Example: 1,2V on Q181 (is it Q181? the picture quality is not so good) and -1,2V on Q182. If you don't have this then obviously something is wrong in the driver stage...
Then again, I don't know if this sounds boring to you, I don't know what kind of knowledge you have.
cheers,
Owen
You cannot have good results if you are measuring them in the circuit. Also, are you measuring with your multimeter in OHMS mode, or in transistor-diode checking mode?
It might help if you reverse the leads when testing the PNP device... Otherwise your multimeter is actually biasing the transistor in reverse, it is made to connected to a forward-conducting device, like an NPN transistor or a diode.
Connect the red lead to the Emitter and the black lead to the Base.
You must have paid alot of money for those output transistors, they are in the TO-252 case, right?
A little word of advice: try reading the voltage on the pads where the output transistors go, while they are removed. You should get symmetrical values. Example: 1,2V on Q181 (is it Q181? the picture quality is not so good) and -1,2V on Q182. If you don't have this then obviously something is wrong in the driver stage...
Then again, I don't know if this sounds boring to you, I don't know what kind of knowledge you have.
cheers,
Owen
Hey man
This is not boring to me.
I'm gratefull for your response to my cry out for help, so I'm the one who have to apologise for the trouble.
About my technical experties well 20 years of electronic reparations in everything that has got something to do with electronics.
So let's talk about my problem:
1- removed Tr and measured in Ohms scale
2- about reversing the leads in the ones that I've bought we can measure them in the 2 ways B-E and the value is the same(5,64Kohms) in the ones that are in the good channel's of the receiver it only goes one way in 2sb1560 PNP black lead on base(3,64 Mohms) . The 2sd2390 is the NPN the one that I've bought is OK regarding the ones that are in the amp.
3- I will check later the voltage in Q181 later thank's
4- I'm uploading pic of output Tr
5- the price not so expensive about 3€ each
because I've found them in a pair with the very best price of 48€
if you think it's better for you I'll upload SM in uploader but not here because it's bigger then the limit of upload for the forum user's.
P.S sorry for late answer but I'm new to the forum and there is some kind of moderation for my reply to appear for a couple of hours
This is not boring to me.
I'm gratefull for your response to my cry out for help, so I'm the one who have to apologise for the trouble.
About my technical experties well 20 years of electronic reparations in everything that has got something to do with electronics.
So let's talk about my problem:
1- removed Tr and measured in Ohms scale
2- about reversing the leads in the ones that I've bought we can measure them in the 2 ways B-E and the value is the same(5,64Kohms) in the ones that are in the good channel's of the receiver it only goes one way in 2sb1560 PNP black lead on base(3,64 Mohms) . The 2sd2390 is the NPN the one that I've bought is OK regarding the ones that are in the amp.
3- I will check later the voltage in Q181 later thank's
4- I'm uploading pic of output Tr
5- the price not so expensive about 3€ each
because I've found them in a pair with the very best price of 48€if you think it's better for you I'll upload SM in uploader but not here because it's bigger then the limit of upload for the forum user's.
P.S sorry for late answer but I'm new to the forum and there is some kind of moderation for my reply to appear for a couple of hours
Attachments
Aha, but it's no trouble at all, the reason why I am on this forum is because I like to help people with troubleshooting. I love it! although, I can't always be of help. Most of the time I figure that I am, but there are so many other good repairman (the member "anatek" comes to mind but there are many others too) that would know even more than me, what to do.
So, about that odd-looking 2SB1560 replacement, I would not use it unless absolutely necessary. It is not the same manufacturer, and could present slightly different parameters (or even be of dubious quality) that could affect the amplifier's stability.
OK, so they measure the same in reverse. hmm...
Well the best advise I can give now is measure the voltages to the output transistors first (having them removed) so you know that you have the right voltages there to begin with. You know if the voltages are wrong you're probably going to blow more transistors...
But I think you know that!
Anyway, I don't see what else it could be unless the + or - supply of that channel would be the wrong voltage (doubtful). This could be the case if there is a series resistor blown. Or maybe one of the emitter resistors is bad, causing an imbalance in the Emitter voltage, and too much current is passing through there...
Once you measure the right voltages everywhere, install the new transistors, no matter what they measure, so long as they are good, and hope for the best!
That's what I would do... (and have done in the past..)
cheers
So, about that odd-looking 2SB1560 replacement, I would not use it unless absolutely necessary. It is not the same manufacturer, and could present slightly different parameters (or even be of dubious quality) that could affect the amplifier's stability.
OK, so they measure the same in reverse. hmm...
Well the best advise I can give now is measure the voltages to the output transistors first (having them removed) so you know that you have the right voltages there to begin with. You know if the voltages are wrong you're probably going to blow more transistors...
But I think you know that!
Anyway, I don't see what else it could be unless the + or - supply of that channel would be the wrong voltage (doubtful). This could be the case if there is a series resistor blown. Or maybe one of the emitter resistors is bad, causing an imbalance in the Emitter voltage, and too much current is passing through there...
Once you measure the right voltages everywhere, install the new transistors, no matter what they measure, so long as they are good, and hope for the best!
That's what I would do... (and have done in the past..)
cheers
Those devices that you measure 5.64Kohms on are almost certainly fakes. If you smash one open you will probably find the usual 3mm die covered in silicone.
The cross referenced one, pass... but it is not good to use mismatched devices. The 2SD2390 seems to be genuine.
Sanken devices are one of the most widely faked kinds of devices. You are wasting your money unless you can get them from a guaranteed official supplier.
I would recommend Farnell, they have a Portugese office - http://pt.farnell.com - you are guaranteed to get 100% official devices from them. It may cost a little more but that is because you are getting genuine devices and not cheap fakes.
The cross referenced one, pass... but it is not good to use mismatched devices. The 2SD2390 seems to be genuine.
Sanken devices are one of the most widely faked kinds of devices. You are wasting your money unless you can get them from a guaranteed official supplier.
I would recommend Farnell, they have a Portugese office - http://pt.farnell.com - you are guaranteed to get 100% official devices from them. It may cost a little more but that is because you are getting genuine devices and not cheap fakes.
Hi jaycee I've smashed one and there seems to be no silicone.
About farnell I'm their client and there pic looks the same as my Pic of TR here is a link .
I'm going to re-chek the voltages I do remenber that B+ and B- around 53V the other voltage don't Know for shure got to assemble everything and test it again thank's gain-wire.
I'll be back as soon as possible
About farnell I'm their client and there pic looks the same as my Pic of TR here is a link .
I'm going to re-chek the voltages I do remenber that B+ and B- around 53V the other voltage don't Know for shure got to assemble everything and test it again thank's gain-wire.
I'll be back as soon as possible
Hey Jaycee you where right man the old one that blows as got a bigger die then the new one that I've bought
Hi Jayb. I repaired a 1803 some time ago too.blown output transistors.I got the spares from
www.astelectronica.nl .The devices he delivered are certainly genuine,and I remember this supplier called me that he couldnot meet the delivery time,since he had to reorder from his gross supplier.So I suppose he ordered some fresh stock back then,and if you order there you'll get the same devices (it's a small shop).
Schematics ARE available should you be interested.
www.astelectronica.nl .The devices he delivered are certainly genuine,and I remember this supplier called me that he couldnot meet the delivery time,since he had to reorder from his gross supplier.So I suppose he ordered some fresh stock back then,and if you order there you'll get the same devices (it's a small shop).
Schematics ARE available should you be interested.
hi
most of the Sanken and Sanyo high power parts are beinh faked.
i recommend these guys for the parts you require
http://www.profusionplc.com/
most of the Sanken and Sanyo high power parts are beinh faked.
i recommend these guys for the parts you require
http://www.profusionplc.com/
Okay, let's take this subject to an end.
I've repaired some time ago the Denon Amplifier and the situation was as I've writen previously:
"2- about reversing the leads in the ones that I've bought we can measure them in the 2 ways B-E and the value is the same(5,64Kohms) in the ones that are in the good channel's of the receiver it only goes one way in 2sb1560 PNP black lead on base(3,64 Mohms) . The 2sd2390 is the NPN the one that I've bought is OK regarding the ones that are in the amp.
If the 2SB1560 measures 5,64 Kohms it's because of this:
"Then I've searched for the datasheet found that this receiver uses Darlington Power Transistors and my 2sb1560 is Epitaxial Planar Transistor and my new 2sd2390 is a Darlington Power Transistor and now I suspect that they will not work."
So all Tr that I've bought Where good But they do not match with each other because manufacturer stop production of the ones that are in the amp. The complementary pair that I've bought where very expensive, but everything worked fine.
- So what to do? You must buy the complementary pair only sellers who sell you both Tr are the ones that are good for the amp because they must measure more or less 3,64Mohms.
Once more thank's to all that have helped me.
JB 🙂
I've repaired some time ago the Denon Amplifier and the situation was as I've writen previously:
"2- about reversing the leads in the ones that I've bought we can measure them in the 2 ways B-E and the value is the same(5,64Kohms) in the ones that are in the good channel's of the receiver it only goes one way in 2sb1560 PNP black lead on base(3,64 Mohms) . The 2sd2390 is the NPN the one that I've bought is OK regarding the ones that are in the amp.
If the 2SB1560 measures 5,64 Kohms it's because of this:
"Then I've searched for the datasheet found that this receiver uses Darlington Power Transistors and my 2sb1560 is Epitaxial Planar Transistor and my new 2sd2390 is a Darlington Power Transistor and now I suspect that they will not work."
So all Tr that I've bought Where good But they do not match with each other because manufacturer stop production of the ones that are in the amp. The complementary pair that I've bought where very expensive, but everything worked fine.
- So what to do? You must buy the complementary pair only sellers who sell you both Tr are the ones that are good for the amp because they must measure more or less 3,64Mohms.
Once more thank's to all that have helped me.
JB 🙂
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