I've pulled my old 8000C out of my system as I recently acquired a Croft preamp. Initially I was blown away by the Croft, sounds stunning on jazz, folk rock etc, but compared to the Audiolab it goes to mush with more complex and heavier material.
The 8000C is an early one (old) so I've been thinking about replacing all the electrolytics, but on the other hand maybe I should just sell it and go DIY, or buy something better...
Your thoughts welcomed!
The 8000C is an early one (old) so I've been thinking about replacing all the electrolytics, but on the other hand maybe I should just sell it and go DIY, or buy something better...
Your thoughts welcomed!
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Hi,
YMMV but IMO its a keeper. Tweak it.
Replace Electro's if you want. Bypass those in the signal path.
rgds, sreten.
YMMV but IMO its a keeper. Tweak it.
Replace Electro's if you want. Bypass those in the signal path.
rgds, sreten.
This all depends on your budget..
First of all why are you using a preamp?
Are you using RIAA turntable?
If not have you tried making a passive?
I have listened to a few Croft and they didn't float my boat..
It depends on if its just a line stage you want to drive cables or the input selector etc..
So you could just keep it and build something anyway..then make a decision if you like what you have built or not..
Then again if you don't want to spend money for fun DIY then you would be better going to some places and listening to demonstrations.
You could tweek the Audiolab however then what do you do if you don't like what you have done..😀
I remember listening to Audiolab way back and thought the Pioneer A300X and 400x were similar if not better. (Cost / price). YMMV
I still have my A300x that I bought to get my system running in the 1980's while I was building a tube amp.. so it was a stand in but brand new at the time..
With all systems there is a trade off..detail/warmth/thin sound/bass drive/ and this is what people agonise over..the problem is we think we know what we want and when we have it we think we want something else..its a cruel world..😀
If it was me I would have a play and build something just for fun..but that's just me..
Did you ever compare it to Quad or Naim..just for fun..
I remember everyone raving about the michaelson hifi but that didn't float my boat either..😀
My friend had a concordant preamp at the time and I put a DIY passive out of my system into his and he preferred the passive..
I remember sitting and listening to so much stuff in the 70-90's that I gets a bit weird..you find you end up not knowing what you want..
Everything sounds either rubbish, OK, or its the best I've listened to..what you want is a system you can't wait to listen to or don't want to switch off..
I know some people with systems that cost a fortune and if they power it up once a month that's about it..serious money..
I know a couple that just ditched a system because it wasn't in vogue anymore..
Regards
M. Gregg
First of all why are you using a preamp?
Are you using RIAA turntable?
If not have you tried making a passive?
I have listened to a few Croft and they didn't float my boat..
It depends on if its just a line stage you want to drive cables or the input selector etc..
So you could just keep it and build something anyway..then make a decision if you like what you have built or not..
Then again if you don't want to spend money for fun DIY then you would be better going to some places and listening to demonstrations.
You could tweek the Audiolab however then what do you do if you don't like what you have done..😀
I remember listening to Audiolab way back and thought the Pioneer A300X and 400x were similar if not better. (Cost / price). YMMV
I still have my A300x that I bought to get my system running in the 1980's while I was building a tube amp.. so it was a stand in but brand new at the time..
With all systems there is a trade off..detail/warmth/thin sound/bass drive/ and this is what people agonise over..the problem is we think we know what we want and when we have it we think we want something else..its a cruel world..😀
If it was me I would have a play and build something just for fun..but that's just me..
Did you ever compare it to Quad or Naim..just for fun..
I remember everyone raving about the michaelson hifi but that didn't float my boat either..😀
My friend had a concordant preamp at the time and I put a DIY passive out of my system into his and he preferred the passive..
I remember sitting and listening to so much stuff in the 70-90's that I gets a bit weird..you find you end up not knowing what you want..
Everything sounds either rubbish, OK, or its the best I've listened to..what you want is a system you can't wait to listen to or don't want to switch off..
I know some people with systems that cost a fortune and if they power it up once a month that's about it..serious money..
I know a couple that just ditched a system because it wasn't in vogue anymore..
Regards
M. Gregg
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So I guess,
Can you make a silk purse out of a sows ear..or is it just great and you would buy a new one if you could..
Whatever you decide to do..I bet its out of favour after you rebuild it and you will ask the same question again..😀
I must add remember with DIY NOBODY has another like yours..even if its not as good as others..😀
The trick is to make it like your dreams...(LMAO) here starts the 5 year preamp project..
Regards
M. Gregg
Can you make a silk purse out of a sows ear..or is it just great and you would buy a new one if you could..
Whatever you decide to do..I bet its out of favour after you rebuild it and you will ask the same question again..😀
I must add remember with DIY NOBODY has another like yours..even if its not as good as others..😀
The trick is to make it like your dreams...(LMAO) here starts the 5 year preamp project..
Regards
M. Gregg
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A couple of weeks and a lot of fun..
Don't try this at home..😀 Veroboard project..(preamp)
Just for fun build..its been shown before a some time ago..however It was fun and perhaps you might get a few ideas..
The cropped pic shows the modified Maida reg..the third is is an initial test its a bit scruffy because a PCB has been removed..
Anyway back to the Audiolab..
Regards
M. Gregg
Don't try this at home..😀 Veroboard project..(preamp)
Just for fun build..its been shown before a some time ago..however It was fun and perhaps you might get a few ideas..
The cropped pic shows the modified Maida reg..the third is is an initial test its a bit scruffy because a PCB has been removed..
Anyway back to the Audiolab..
Regards
M. Gregg
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My speakers are active (Meridian M1), cables aren't particularly long but some sort of buffer / line stage is probably a good idea. Most of my listening is vinyl so I need a phono stage, too. The Audiolab has the advantage of a built-in headphone amp, plus it has good tone controls, lots of inputs, and a separate selector for recording - all of which I find useful.
I'm happy with my turntable and speakers (although I do regularly swap turntable bits around for fun). The preamp has always been the thing that's been hard to pin down... Originally used a Crimson, which was very good, then got an old Meridian 101 with the intention of running balanced cables - it sounded very flat and veiled though, and an old Croft Micro turned up which I loved... then I was given the Audiolab, and it seemed to be a better compromise in terms of facilities, but also sonically more detail (especially with complex recordings) and better bass control/extension, so I sold the original Croft.
After a while I felt that the Audiolab wasn't making me want to play records in the same way as the old Croft, so when another one turned up I grabbed it... as I said, I love it with jazz and simple rock or acoustic music, but with more complex stuff it starts to sound muddy. Maybe I should try a new set of valves before giving up on it...
I'm happy with my turntable and speakers (although I do regularly swap turntable bits around for fun). The preamp has always been the thing that's been hard to pin down... Originally used a Crimson, which was very good, then got an old Meridian 101 with the intention of running balanced cables - it sounded very flat and veiled though, and an old Croft Micro turned up which I loved... then I was given the Audiolab, and it seemed to be a better compromise in terms of facilities, but also sonically more detail (especially with complex recordings) and better bass control/extension, so I sold the original Croft.
After a while I felt that the Audiolab wasn't making me want to play records in the same way as the old Croft, so when another one turned up I grabbed it... as I said, I love it with jazz and simple rock or acoustic music, but with more complex stuff it starts to sound muddy. Maybe I should try a new set of valves before giving up on it...
Maybe you should build a different tube preamp..😕
Maybe its easier to do up the Audiolab..
Regards
M. Gregg
Here is a suggestion,
Do up the Audiolab it won't cost a lot..I would be selective about parts, however most would just renew with standard parts.
If you do upgrade it I would do it bit at a time..ie change all the electrolytic caps first and try it..They last about 25-30 years..before complete failure.
If you aren't happy you can make your next move..
Regards
M. Gregg
Do up the Audiolab it won't cost a lot..I would be selective about parts, however most would just renew with standard parts.
If you do upgrade it I would do it bit at a time..ie change all the electrolytic caps first and try it..They last about 25-30 years..before complete failure.
If you aren't happy you can make your next move..
Regards
M. Gregg
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I think I will replace the electrolytics and see how it sounds. Also need to fix the output muting circuit (so I can use headphones without turning off my speakers) I'm hoping it's just a dirty relay...
Currently all the electrolytics in the audio path are Elna Duorex. In the past I've gone for Panasonic ECAs as they are cheap and readily available (CPC). Good choice?
I notice that the PSU caps are standard Elnas - is this a cost-saving choice or is the choice of cap critical?
Is it sensible to keep the same values?
Thanks chaps!
Currently all the electrolytics in the audio path are Elna Duorex. In the past I've gone for Panasonic ECAs as they are cheap and readily available (CPC). Good choice?
I notice that the PSU caps are standard Elnas - is this a cost-saving choice or is the choice of cap critical?
Is it sensible to keep the same values?
Thanks chaps!
Currently leaning towards Panasonic FM but need to check what values are available.
I assume you are going to use one of these?
Its a must have...I use the small version..
Regards caps..go with what you want..I use Elna Silmic...But many like the Panasonic..
I find the Cerafines a bit bright..I like Mundorf for PSU..again its what you prefer..standard caps are good enough and bypass with decent film caps.
In the PSU I use other values of film caps across the supply 10uF and 0.1 ..it depends what you want to do.
Be very careful around the RIAA stage at the moment don't change any values..
Here is another easy tip photograph each section before you do anything then at least if you forget you know what its was like before..🙂
Of course you may already know this we have no idea what background you have in EE.
(I notice I'm dominating the thread so I'll shut up for a bit..others may have useful/different ideas)
Regards
M. Gregg
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I assume you are going to use one of these?
Its a must have...I use the small version..
Yep, got one of these too.
Electric De-Solder Pump
Maybe I'll go for Silmics. Where's the best place to get them?
My understanding of electronics is fairly basic although I do have some practical experience. I am pretty good with a soldering iron. I would need a bit more guidance in terms of changing values and bypassing.
Thanks for your input so far!
You can but Elna Silmic and Cerafine in the UK from here:
Elna Electrolytics Capacitors | Hifi Collective
Elna rate them as follows:
1) Silmic
2) Cerafine
3) Duorex
With Silmic being the best.
You might want to get some de-soldering braid too. Personally I find it easier to use than a pump. The 'no clean Soldamop' stuff from Servisol (available at Maplin) is good.
Elna Electrolytics Capacitors | Hifi Collective
Elna rate them as follows:
1) Silmic
2) Cerafine
3) Duorex
With Silmic being the best.
You might want to get some de-soldering braid too. Personally I find it easier to use than a pump. The 'no clean Soldamop' stuff from Servisol (available at Maplin) is good.
Just a heads-up. You might find the Silmics, in particular, are dimensionally larger than the original caps so take your time and check all of the relevant dimensions, including the lead pitch (space between leads) before ordering.
Thanks, I think there's plenty of space in most cases but I will check! Got some soldamop here too. I normally use the pump first then clean up with braid if I need too.
Actually I'm not impressed with the original soldering in the Audiolab - loads of flux and some of the joints are barely covered...
+1 for the above, that's what most folk would recommend.
The general consensus is to avoid lead free solders as they require more heat and are harder to work.
I've never bothered with special audio solders myself.
The general consensus is to avoid lead free solders as they require more heat and are harder to work.
I've never bothered with special audio solders myself.
I used to use Multicore for many years,
The lead free tends not to be savbit and the iron tip disappears quite quickly..
I use Cardas eutectic now..its not lead free it flows better..
(I wouldn't go back)
Probably stick with what you know..🙂
I intend to try WBT just for a comparison.
I used the Audio note stuff many moons ago and it was rather good..however audio note don't make solder so what is it?
Anyway that's another story..the main thing is to remember to use correct solder for metal type..
Regards
M. Gregg
change to a eutectic.
63/37 is the cheapest eutectic.
There are some triple eutectics and a quad eutectic (Cardas keep their quad eutectic a trade secret).
Try experimenting with different flux cores and find one or two that suit your working methods.
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