Audiophiler Capacitor Red compared to any Mundorf Supreme as coupling cap?

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#2
Audiophiler caps are absolutely standard Chinese MKP caps, Supremes are low inductance, film/foil construction at something like 20 times the price. Make up your mind from there.

This 2009 thread from the lounge should shed some subjective light on the audiophilers and some light entertainment.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/lounge/139014-audiophiler-capacitors-ebay-6.html
Most product queries come up time and again. A search for an old thread is a good place to find information and post specific new questions.
 
#4
I haven't used Mundorf Supreme caps in any variety but I have used plenty of other polyprop. film/foil caps which all suffer from the same size problems of needing special PCB layouts, susceptibility to EMI - power supply and RF noise and crosstalk. In some amps, I had to replace 15uF Kimber Kaps with much smaller types off-board to eliminate the noise which was just noticeable, sporadic and continuous low-level, outweighing the benefit of these monsters. I have tried metal sleeves, steel chassis partitions, placing the heatsink between PSU and amplifier and modular amplifier construction. Each approach still makes the design a PITA to build and use. YMMV.

I think the benefits in a HT amplifier are not going to be realized as well as with stereo so I would try to design for smaller, quality MKP types. As you don't need extreme bass extension for HT, it isn't necessary to use monster values anyway, so results could be quite good with manageable part sizes - even exotics like Mundorf. Still, I'd go for small size and lowest noise at the input stage every time, given the option. It's not like there aren't hundreds of other brands/grades to experiment with more cheaply and practically.
 
#5
Call me a heretic, but in this application I'd go with bi-polar electrolytics, Nichicon MUSE audio grade and most likely you will find room for 100uF values. With large values there is no real a.c. across the cap and therefore vanishingly low impact on the sound. I read about this many times before and have seen reports from other people who have tried this out and been very pleasantly surprised (I don't have the links, but Google is your friend...)
 
#8
It's a relative figure. A rule-of-thumb 10x figure for electrolytics as opposed to film caps has been suggested as enough to ensure negligible distortion. That means 22uF would be appropriate for a design that called for 2.2 uF film caps. Alternatively, a decent quality 2.2 uF MKP is not huge and may be fine in a sheltered location - it's down to how exposed they are to the power and output stage tracks, parts and wiring. That could be a matter of trial and error but better, would be actual THD and noise measurements.
 
#9
Ian Finch said:
It's a relative figure. A rule-of-thumb 10x figure for electrolytics as opposed to film caps has been suggested as enough to ensure negligible distortion. That means 22uF would be appropriate for a design that called for 2.2 uF film caps. Alternatively, a decent quality 2.2 uF MKP is not huge and may be fine in a sheltered location - it's down to how exposed they are to the power and output stage tracks, parts and wiring. That could be a matter of trial and error but better, would be actual THD and noise measurements.
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I believe the rate at which the dissipation of stored energy because of dielectric absorption to be considered?

Electrolytics are not as fast dissipators of energy and hence would affect in time domain?

When I use electrolytic in the input I see alot of details are being missed what else could be the reason?
 
#12
Ian Finch said:
It's a relative figure. A rule-of-thumb 10x figure for electrolytics as opposed to film caps has been suggested as enough to ensure negligible distortion. That means 22uF would be appropriate for a design that called for 2.2 uF film caps. Alternatively, a decent quality 2.2 uF MKP is not huge and may be fine in a sheltered location - it's down to how exposed they are to the power and output stage tracks, parts and wiring. That could be a matter of trial and error but better, would be actual THD and noise measurements.
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It depends.

If you want 20Hz to pass, then you might adopt an F-3dB @ 10Hz.

For an input impedance of 500k the film cap would need to be ~32nF
if the F-3dB were moved down to 2Hz allowing a bi-polar electrolytic to do then one would need ~160nF

For an input impedance of 50k the film cap would need to be ~320nF
if the F-3dB were moved down to 2Hz allowing a bi-polar electrolytic to do then one would need ~1.6uF

In both cases the electrolytic is 5times as large and takes up less space and costs less and perform as well as an MKT/PES/Mylar.

But if you require really low phase angle effects from the DC blocking capacitor, then in all four examples I would suggest you increase each capacitor at least 10times.
Jensen suggests 220uF panasonic bipolar as the coupling capacitor on the output of Source equipment
 
#14
AndrewT said:
...But if you require really low phase angle effects from the DC blocking capacitor, then in all four examples I would suggest you increase each capacitor at least 10times...
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Yes, that is the main reason why I prefer huge value for DC-caps. And polymer caps are really small. For 470µF/10V, 8mmø and 12mm high.
This is not only practical, but also has a very small unshielded signal area. When I see the huge MKPs, which are often used. 🙄 Actually, you would have to shield them separately.
 
#17
Bigun said:
With large values there is no real a.c. across the cap and therefore vanishingly low impact on the sound.
Click to expand...

I would accentuate this basic point. There seems to be a fixation with high quality concerning coupling caps, probably because they sit 'right there in the signal line' etc. As Bigun explained, capacitor characteristics hardly play a role as coupling caps are (should be) a.c. shorts at signal frequencies. They are in a manner of speaking only d.c. blockers. Only capacitors used in filters should have minimum capacitive characteristics.

(By the way, the 'signal line' is another confusing concept. A.c. flows in a circle, back and forth. Thus e.g. power supply capacitors are as much in the signal line as coupling capacitors.)
 
#19
My tip is ---- IF YOU CAN --- remove the dc blocking cap and install a dc servo. From tests, I went from polar to bipolar to film and finally to no cap... I introduced the servo concept and it is more perfect than any cap and is smaller and cheaper.

THx-RNMarsh
 
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