I have some B&W DM 602 S1 speakers. They're about 28 years old. I like their performance, but I've always found them to have a high-frequency range that gets fatiguing during extended listening. I tried the crossover modifications suggested here on diyAudio, but quickly went back because I noticed the original crossover is better. I've now seen a pair of DM 602 S3 tweeters for sale. They can be improved over the original DM602 S1. The other thing is that the ferrofluid is probably old by now. The question is: will replacing the tweeter with the S3 tweeter change the sound for better or worse? Regards.
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There are of course the usual recommendations like dont point the speaker at your head, tilt the speakers so you listen closer to the woofer axis. B&W sometimes seem designed to be listened lmuch lower than the tweeter. Also consider if your room is too reflective.
When everyone else is bored of this thread I can whisper to change the tweeter caps to Mundorf MKP or Clarity ESA 🤣
When everyone else is bored of this thread I can whisper to change the tweeter caps to Mundorf MKP or Clarity ESA 🤣
I have 602 S1's as well. I have replaced the capacitors but it didnt really improve the fatigue factor. The S3 version would require a different crossover as well from what I have seen online. I might experiment with a resistor and see it I can tone down that tweeter. I moved onto KEF LS50's, which are also fatiguing. Now I am trying to build my own speaker which is just a terrible idea, starts with a pair, and before you know it your dreaming of Frugel-horns and Mark Audio drivers, geeze.
Thanks so much for your response, eriksquires.
I was referring to replacing the tweeter with the one from the S3 model, since it's theoretically superior to the S1's, so I could take advantage of the opportunity to have two for sale.
Another issue is that the S1's tweeters probably already have aged ferrofluid.
Although the S2's tweeter is better because it uses Nautilus technology, I have doubts about whether it would fit the S1's crossover (it crosses at 3000 Hz, while the S2's crossover at 4000 Hz).
I was referring to replacing the tweeter with the one from the S3 model, since it's theoretically superior to the S1's, so I could take advantage of the opportunity to have two for sale.
Another issue is that the S1's tweeters probably already have aged ferrofluid.
Although the S2's tweeter is better because it uses Nautilus technology, I have doubts about whether it would fit the S1's crossover (it crosses at 3000 Hz, while the S2's crossover at 4000 Hz).
As if you'd read my mind.
I'm gathering information and schematics for full-range speakers, mainly those from Mark Audio.
I'm looking at the Markaudio CHP 90 or the CHn 110 since they apparently don't have treble boost.
The schematics I'd like to try are from DDVP.
Attachments
So I found some measurements here but maybe not your series
https://www.soundandvision.com/content/bw-dm-602-series-3-surround-speaker-system-measurements
If your speaker is similar, and other B&W speakers are, then the issue s balancing the on vs. off axis listening. There's a big peak at about 9 kHz that needs to be tamed on axis. So normally you'd offset this by toeing the speaker out , but then off-axis there's a big dip developing around 2-3kHz.
Really this needs a full analysis to do right, but if you were to just guess at a solution from this you need a notch filter at 9 kHz. This would flatten the tweeter and leave you with the best response in the 2-4kHz region.
On the other hand, IMHO, the response later in the review starts to show a more balanced output below the tweeter... so worth listening there. If that works for you then all you need to do is tilt them back a little.
A full on/off axis measurement of the bare drivers (in box) along with impedance measures of each may give you a better solution. For instance, I notice the woofer LP filter is very very simple. I also have seen a number of B&W tweeters that go much lower, but have horrible frequency responses. A full analysis would help tell you what it would take to do this right, which in the end may be a lot more than you want to do. Perfect setup for an active crossover with DSP though.
Other than a learning exercise though the ROI on this seem poor. A new 2-way kit you build yourself would be a great way to spend lots of money instead of most of my suggestions, above. 🤣
https://www.soundandvision.com/content/bw-dm-602-series-3-surround-speaker-system-measurements
If your speaker is similar, and other B&W speakers are, then the issue s balancing the on vs. off axis listening. There's a big peak at about 9 kHz that needs to be tamed on axis. So normally you'd offset this by toeing the speaker out , but then off-axis there's a big dip developing around 2-3kHz.
Really this needs a full analysis to do right, but if you were to just guess at a solution from this you need a notch filter at 9 kHz. This would flatten the tweeter and leave you with the best response in the 2-4kHz region.
On the other hand, IMHO, the response later in the review starts to show a more balanced output below the tweeter... so worth listening there. If that works for you then all you need to do is tilt them back a little.
A full on/off axis measurement of the bare drivers (in box) along with impedance measures of each may give you a better solution. For instance, I notice the woofer LP filter is very very simple. I also have seen a number of B&W tweeters that go much lower, but have horrible frequency responses. A full analysis would help tell you what it would take to do this right, which in the end may be a lot more than you want to do. Perfect setup for an active crossover with DSP though.
Other than a learning exercise though the ROI on this seem poor. A new 2-way kit you build yourself would be a great way to spend lots of money instead of most of my suggestions, above. 🤣
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Eriksquires, Thank you very much for your input. I'll try the off-axis tilt. If that peak at 9 kHz is a midwoofer breakup, I might try a notch filter.
My intention was to replace the tweeters with those from the S3 model. But I think I'll give up.
Regards.
My intention was to replace the tweeters with those from the S3 model. But I think I'll give up.
Regards.
It's not about having opinion. Normally, you can evaluate things once the schematic is available.
Can you provide one, or do you have original service manual that used to be officially downloadable?
Really
seems like the tweeter, but not sure why you would only di it there. If its the woofer you would be better served by converting thhe lp filter from first to second order
I thought the 9 kHz was due to a break in the midwoofer.
It didn't occur to me that it could be the tweeter.
I'd have to investigate.
I'll have to buy a good calibrated microphone and see where the problem lies.
But I've decided against buying the B&W DM602 S3 tweeter because I've read that it has the same problem of causing fatigue due to that famous peak in the treble.
I'm actually a bit devoted to these speakers.
9 kHz is way too high to be the tweeter. Not saying a woofer can't have a breakup there, but given this is a 2-way and the off-axis performance I'd say the crossover point is around 3kHz. Everything above that is up to the tweeter. Good news however is you can apply a notch filter without even opening up the box. You DO need to know the impedance above 3 kHz though. Room EQ Wizard or DATS V3 are your friends there.
🙂
🙂
They do seem to be good choices for low volume listening as on axis they have a built-in loudness curve.
Have you seen this one?
Maybe a remedy is just to lower the tweeter level 1-3 dB overall.
The off axis response is not the best ... seems the mid-woofer is not really up for the crossover at 3kHz.
A way would maybe be to use a larger waveguide and lower the crossover point ... but then we are talking about rebuilding 😉
Maybe a remedy is just to lower the tweeter level 1-3 dB overall.
The off axis response is not the best ... seems the mid-woofer is not really up for the crossover at 3kHz.
A way would maybe be to use a larger waveguide and lower the crossover point ... but then we are talking about rebuilding 😉