i only have experience with one tube amp, a low power stereo amp that came with a cheap turntable and wasn't impressed with it's low power. lately though, i'm more interested as i'm using a panasonic class d receiver with an equally analytical pair of energy RC-10s. i'd like to try something a little more "liquid" sounding and with superior imaging, but not an overly tubby and euphonic tube amp.
i was thinking of an 845 design after reading a review for a komoro, i think, amp described as having "best imaging ever" or something to that effect until reading 845s aren't the best for treble. as my bookshelves are maybe 88dB efficient, i'd imagine a 300 amp is a no go and probably EL34 is the way to go for a 30-50 watt design.
i really don't know much about tube amps and got nowhere with "best sounding tube amp kits". i've seen a few sites are selling affordable looking kits with tubes mounted directly on a PCB board. if any of them produce extremely musical and detailed sound, i'd be interested in something like that.
i was just reading a review for a factory hot rodded jolida EL34 amp that's supposed to be a great entry level value, but i imagine it's possible to build better cheaper at the kit or even parts list level. i'm thinking i'd like to build the best amp possible up to, say $500 maybe, with premium capacitors and maybe even toroid transformers (that rules out class A doesn't it?).
does anyone know what "the best kit" or even design is that's doable for a reasonable amount of money? if not, know of a tube specific forum where designs are reviewed and compared?
i loved the sound of my panasonic, especially with "warmer and more polite" NHT superzeros with soft domes, but i think i'm getting a 2x clinical sound now with the energies which are very fast and detailed too. i'm not sure of the right word to describe the sound. bright and thin aren't exactly right nor is etched. maybe lean. the system REALLY sounds nice with percussion though as i've plugged my ports.
anyone know of any cheap kits that can be hot rodded with premium components and compete with the likes of audio research etc.? i'd like a nice fluid sounding high end amp that will harmonize a little better with my speakers. maybe before i do that, i should try digital room correction, but none of my previous soft dome 2 ways has sounded so lean on the panasonic also including mission m71s & celelestion ditton 100s, both of which have flimsy boomy cabinets.
i think i'd like a design around 50 watts, but i do low level listening, so if there's a 20 watt amp that will sound more agile maxed out than a 50w with headroom, i'm open to that. i was able to get ample power out of a 15wpc sonic impact with my missions and superzeros in the past.
rolled off treble or bass that's flabby aren't options in a tube amp. i want as much resolution, speed and imaging as possible balanced with ease. i guess i'm looking for a tube amp that almost sounds solid state, just a little more relaxed maybe, just not overly romantic i guess i'm trying to say. oh, and i listen to all kinds of music and not so much classical or jazz.
does that make any sense to you tube experts?
i was thinking of an 845 design after reading a review for a komoro, i think, amp described as having "best imaging ever" or something to that effect until reading 845s aren't the best for treble. as my bookshelves are maybe 88dB efficient, i'd imagine a 300 amp is a no go and probably EL34 is the way to go for a 30-50 watt design.
i really don't know much about tube amps and got nowhere with "best sounding tube amp kits". i've seen a few sites are selling affordable looking kits with tubes mounted directly on a PCB board. if any of them produce extremely musical and detailed sound, i'd be interested in something like that.
i was just reading a review for a factory hot rodded jolida EL34 amp that's supposed to be a great entry level value, but i imagine it's possible to build better cheaper at the kit or even parts list level. i'm thinking i'd like to build the best amp possible up to, say $500 maybe, with premium capacitors and maybe even toroid transformers (that rules out class A doesn't it?).
does anyone know what "the best kit" or even design is that's doable for a reasonable amount of money? if not, know of a tube specific forum where designs are reviewed and compared?
i loved the sound of my panasonic, especially with "warmer and more polite" NHT superzeros with soft domes, but i think i'm getting a 2x clinical sound now with the energies which are very fast and detailed too. i'm not sure of the right word to describe the sound. bright and thin aren't exactly right nor is etched. maybe lean. the system REALLY sounds nice with percussion though as i've plugged my ports.
anyone know of any cheap kits that can be hot rodded with premium components and compete with the likes of audio research etc.? i'd like a nice fluid sounding high end amp that will harmonize a little better with my speakers. maybe before i do that, i should try digital room correction, but none of my previous soft dome 2 ways has sounded so lean on the panasonic also including mission m71s & celelestion ditton 100s, both of which have flimsy boomy cabinets.
i think i'd like a design around 50 watts, but i do low level listening, so if there's a 20 watt amp that will sound more agile maxed out than a 50w with headroom, i'm open to that. i was able to get ample power out of a 15wpc sonic impact with my missions and superzeros in the past.
rolled off treble or bass that's flabby aren't options in a tube amp. i want as much resolution, speed and imaging as possible balanced with ease. i guess i'm looking for a tube amp that almost sounds solid state, just a little more relaxed maybe, just not overly romantic i guess i'm trying to say. oh, and i listen to all kinds of music and not so much classical or jazz.
does that make any sense to you tube experts?
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You are correct about a SE 300B being unsuited to 88 dB. speakers. 94 dB. or higher sensitivity is in order for the 8 or so WPC produced.
Even if the sonic reputation of the 845 was to your liking, I would strongly advise against that selection, for a 1st project. A B+ rail of 1.2 KV. is deadly dangerous! Make your mistakes at lower voltages, where you might escape alive.
Proper mating of amps and speakers is critical to obtaining good results. You say 88 dB., but didn't give the nominal impedance or the conditions for that SPL. Plenty of speaker makers "cheat", when specifying sensitivity. They will say nn dB., with 2.83 V. of drive. 2.83 V. is 1 W. into 8 Ω, but it's 2 W. into 4 Ω. Even if the nominal impedance of the speakers is 8 Ω, the impedance curve is important. Tube amps don't have the damping factor SS amps have. If the speakers have significant dips in the impedance curve, particularly at low frequencies, they must be regarded as having a 4 Ω impedance for purposes of mating to a tube amp and that means the sensitivity number has to be derated by 3 dB.
Even if the sonic reputation of the 845 was to your liking, I would strongly advise against that selection, for a 1st project. A B+ rail of 1.2 KV. is deadly dangerous! Make your mistakes at lower voltages, where you might escape alive.
Proper mating of amps and speakers is critical to obtaining good results. You say 88 dB., but didn't give the nominal impedance or the conditions for that SPL. Plenty of speaker makers "cheat", when specifying sensitivity. They will say nn dB., with 2.83 V. of drive. 2.83 V. is 1 W. into 8 Ω, but it's 2 W. into 4 Ω. Even if the nominal impedance of the speakers is 8 Ω, the impedance curve is important. Tube amps don't have the damping factor SS amps have. If the speakers have significant dips in the impedance curve, particularly at low frequencies, they must be regarded as having a 4 Ω impedance for purposes of mating to a tube amp and that means the sensitivity number has to be derated by 3 dB.
see... there's that technical stuff i never had to get into before. i was just guessing on my speaker's efficiency too. i'll see if i can find more specific stats.
Impedance: 8 ohms (nominal) / 4 ohms minimum
Sensitivity: 88dB
Useable bass response: -10dB anechoic @ 50Hz
i thought tube amps loved 4 ohms as so many people like to use them with magnepans.
looking inside some amplifier and at another one's schematics, your danger comment makes me wonder if maybe i shouldn't even try this. with so many wires, it'd be easy to route the wrong one to the wrong place, and i don't even know how tube connectors are "numbered" as none of the tubes ive seen has numbers on the bases. that, and resistors are directional, i don't know how to read those, and the one schematic i looked at didn't even show direction.
i know it would be nothing to DIY a speaker crossover, but tube amps are more complicated than i thought. i thought the tubes were most of the circuit and it's just be a matter making a dozen or so connections.
then there's the cost of tubes... $150 every few months isn't an option either. maybe i'll just go back to starting with a chip amp. those have less than a dozen parts.
i think i COULD build a tube amp, but i also think it's too easy to make a mistake and your warning only adds to that sentiment. there's a lot of stuff inside tube amps i didn't think was there.
Impedance: 8 ohms (nominal) / 4 ohms minimum
Sensitivity: 88dB
Useable bass response: -10dB anechoic @ 50Hz
i thought tube amps loved 4 ohms as so many people like to use them with magnepans.
looking inside some amplifier and at another one's schematics, your danger comment makes me wonder if maybe i shouldn't even try this. with so many wires, it'd be easy to route the wrong one to the wrong place, and i don't even know how tube connectors are "numbered" as none of the tubes ive seen has numbers on the bases. that, and resistors are directional, i don't know how to read those, and the one schematic i looked at didn't even show direction.
i know it would be nothing to DIY a speaker crossover, but tube amps are more complicated than i thought. i thought the tubes were most of the circuit and it's just be a matter making a dozen or so connections.
then there's the cost of tubes... $150 every few months isn't an option either. maybe i'll just go back to starting with a chip amp. those have less than a dozen parts.
i think i COULD build a tube amp, but i also think it's too easy to make a mistake and your warning only adds to that sentiment. there's a lot of stuff inside tube amps i didn't think was there.
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Tube amps mate well with "Maggies" because they have a reasonably flat impedance curve. 😉 Connect an amp of appropriate power capability at the 4 Ω taps and you are good to go.
There's a chance you have the cart before the horse. Does your receiver have the preamp out/amp in feature? If it does, a tube preamp connected to the amp in jacks would "warm" things up nicely. The B+ voltage in small signal tube circuits is frequently below 200 V. While some danger is still present, death is not lurking everywhere. 🙂 It pays to keep in mind that your "120" VAC house current can kill too. Read the "nube" sticky about safety.
Eli - are you and Jim still offering a "kit" version of the El Cheapo?
BudgetMinded, a few random thoughts:
there is no "best" - period.
Over the past 12 or so years I've built a few tube amp kits and DIY clones including Bottlehead 2A3, Decware ZenC clone, Tubelab Simple P/P and the above mentioned El Cheapo, a pair of the late George Wright Mono8 300B, as well as owned and hot-rodded to a degree a Jolida 302.
I've yet to hear a 2A3 or EL84 amp I couldn't live with, but after a flirtation with a few different 300Bs found that the "budget" versions (Wright Mono8s, Bottlehead Paramounts) weren't to my taste , and the only one I could live with (Allen Wright DPA300) was too far beyond my budget to even fantasize about. The same could be said for some of the exotic 845, 211 and others I can't even remember now from various audio shows in the past decade.
Some of the issues that Eli noted regarding impedance / damping factor derive from the interaction of capacitive and inductive reactance components of crossovers in multi-way systems "impedance" - often far more problematic for SE and PP output topologies.
For a goal of "up to $500, maybe" , I'd look at the Simple P/P or El Cheapo. Done well, a 12-15W P/P EL84 like these can do a lot of things very well - even with lower sensitivity speakers (86-88db), cost less to complete than the driver and output tube set for some of the exotic DHT or transmitter types, and be far safer to work on.
Start with standard quality parts, and power / output iron by folks like Edcor before experimenting with boutique "audio-phile / golden ear approved" exotics.
edit: as for "usable bass response" - no room in which I've ever lived is anything near anechoic, and many more rooms than we like to acknowledge will have some degree of issues getting clean response much below 80Hz without acoustic treatment
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Jim McShane still offers parts kits for "El Cheapo". Look here. The builder adds the chassis of his choice and supplies the "iron". Folks in North America can source a complete set of power "iron" from Allied Electronics. O/P trafos from Edcor round things out for the budget minded. The "premium" O/P trafo for the setup is the Dynaclone Z565.
Yeah, the 2A3 and "12" W. multi-grid tubes (EL84, 6V6 ...) kick some butt, without inducing bankruptcy. 😀 Very hard to beat, when mated with suitable speakers.
not me. someone talked me into sticking my finger in a light socket when i was 4 or 5. i remember the humming sound it made before i pulled my finger out. i'm not as worried about getting electrocuted as starting a fire. i already fried my NAD receiver when one of the wires to the sub it was powering shorted. it was very dramatic when it failed... flashes, loud popping and smoke.
the panny is a closed system. i don't even thing it has tape monitoring.
i did something unthinkable, for me, too the other night. i unplugged my ports and at least at lower volumes, the sound warmed up and improved where my mission m71s were boomy. i think i was detecting some one note bass in the bathroom, but the sound was better than expected unplugged. i'm an acoustic suspension to panel speakers speed freak.
between EQing, and upgrading to a western electric DAC, maybe i can feed my speakers better sound from my amp. maybe my speakers might like my receiver's slightly warmer DAC than my sony's as it made my superzeros sound just slightly more veiled. i think it's just a matter of getting used to my speakers. they're also sitting on pairs of empty sub boxes which can't be good. they need some inert stands. i was thinking that actually cinder blocks would be so much cheaper than stands and suits my bang for the buck goals.
just last night, i pulled the left speaker in an inch and a half as my wide screen is limiting how close i can put them and the image popped into focus much better, but is still a little vague in the center. the energys have a very different sound. the treble is much faster than i'm used to, but not aluminum sounding fortunately, and i can really hear air in the image like i never could before.
i think the biggest issue might just be that i'm not pushing them hard enough to open up. i did a little a week or two ago, and they really brought dark side of the moon to life like my zeros never could. i think the word is "jump factor", right? when a speaker is so fast and detailed that sounds surprise you.
maybe, when i get used to the sound a little more, i'll never want it any other way. i've been lamenting how soft domes just can't do metallic percussion justice, and now i have what i've been seeking, kind of, but i bet i'd like a ribbon tweeter even better. i actually put a down payment on a 6 1/2" pair of infinity 2 ways with emits in the 90s only to see the shop gone when i returned to pick them up. thus, my first real pair of speakers were decent JBLs i bought because the larger model had more bass than the faster 5 1/2 inchers.
there's a really weird effect that i'm thinking has to be SPL related. the RC-10s have tons of effortless detail, but a lot of times sounds that pop on other speakers and headphones seem pushed back in the mix. it's just a very different sound. they can really do female vocals nicely. they seem more "emotional" in contrast to what i'd expect from extra resolution.
the western electric dacs get raves everywhere and come with the option to switch between tubed and solid state outs. maybe if i get that, i can get into tubes in baby steps.
i'd get a jolida hot rod, but worry it might not be to my liking and i'd end up losing money on it. maybe the issue is really the treble extension. superzeros have even less bass and stop at 70Hz, but maybe sound warmer because the treble is softer where the RC-10 tweeters really get out of the way and let sounds through.
i wish i had 4 walls all to myself so i could just goose my sound up another 10-20dB. i'm listening below conversation level for now.
i've never heard of the "el cheapo", but it's a name right after my heart! LOL would you say it's more "high end' than a modestly modded jolida? if i get a tube amp, i want it to be good enough that i don't ever feel the need to upgrade ever again. that's why i'm interested in premium caps etc. i'd like a high end amp without the insane markup of something like a $100k ongaku. *cringe*
of course "best" is a subjective term in ANYTHING hi-fi... ports vs sealed, 1 watt vs 2000, tube vs solid state vs class D, aluminum vs paper & silk, three way vs single driver, horns etc.
what i mean by best is "well rounded and not too thick and romantic, but not ruthless either" i'm really inclined to think it's just the synergy with my ruthlessly revealing class D amp. i'm looking to get some of that "liquid palpability" i've read about so much with as few drawbacks as possible like flabby bass, blurred transients and details or rolled off treble.
i'm almost inclined to try the "tube sounding" "king rex" (funny name) class D amp. i do like the sound of class D, but not as much on aluminum domes. from what i understand about audio, it sounds like i need to balance my system with some tube warmth.
tube pre-amps were mentioned in the thread about chip amps i was in for a minute too. is that maybe a better and cheaper way to add romance to the sound with less distortion artifacts? something like that $200 or less musical fidelity tube buffer into my receiver?
i feel like i'm insulting an old friend. that panny really makes soft domes sparkle better than at least NAD & onkyo could. now it seems like too much of a good thing.
in looking at the parts list... the first thing i thought of looking at the very first part... STEPPED ATTENUATOR! straight from the straight wire school of thinking. i'll have to see if i can read some reviews for it to get an idea on if it's what i want to do. i do value bargains, but not at the expense (ironically) of cutting corners. i'd want to use the best reasonably priced components if not oil & foil caps and silver wire.
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