Hi Richy,
it would be very helful you would supply some criteria what you consider to be "performance". I suppose, in this regard you don´t mean µ, rp and gm as stated in the spec sheet?
Tom
it would be very helful you would supply some criteria what you consider to be "performance". I suppose, in this regard you don´t mean µ, rp and gm as stated in the spec sheet?
Tom
Sorry bit hasty on orig....
I'm after rep makes with known low microphonics...and can take roustabout treatment..pop squeaks and noises and not prepared to pay through the roof. Ironically the lowest noise triode in my collection is the famed ECC807 which regretably isn't around any more. I get best quietest peformance with ECC83 tubes configured as simple cathode follower preamp drive or filter aplications.
richj
I'm after rep makes with known low microphonics...and can take roustabout treatment..pop squeaks and noises and not prepared to pay through the roof. Ironically the lowest noise triode in my collection is the famed ECC807 which regretably isn't around any more. I get best quietest peformance with ECC83 tubes configured as simple cathode follower preamp drive or filter aplications.
richj
Rich,
Try the EH and TungSol "reissue" variants. Both are New Sensor items made at the Saratov, Russia plant.
A 3rd New Sensor/Saratov product, the Sovtek 12AX7LPS, is terrific in phono stages, as it's clean, quiet, and uncolored. However, the long plates make the 'LPS somewhat vulnerable to microphonics in guitar amp service.
Try the EH and TungSol "reissue" variants. Both are New Sensor items made at the Saratov, Russia plant.
A 3rd New Sensor/Saratov product, the Sovtek 12AX7LPS, is terrific in phono stages, as it's clean, quiet, and uncolored. However, the long plates make the 'LPS somewhat vulnerable to microphonics in guitar amp service.
I have a couple of the newer ECC83s on my shelf -
The Shuguang 12AX7C has been very quiet and straight from the box they have been very consistent... you may also want to look at the JJ ECC83 with the small plates (there is also a ECC803 version).
The Shuguang 12AX7C has been very quiet and straight from the box they have been very consistent... you may also want to look at the JJ ECC83 with the small plates (there is also a ECC803 version).
kstagger said:
Beware! The JJ ECC83S is very prone to noise and microphonics. It also has a tendency to have weak sections. If you use them get them from someone who tests them very thoroughly - which is not that easy to do since a lot of vendors stopped carrying it. My last batch had 40% rejects, which is why it was my last batch.
The 'Tungsol' small black plate one from Saratov is the one that sounded best to me than the other new ones. Its at least in the mellow long lost vein. Most of the new ones suffer coldness.
Jim McShane said:
good to know - I have to admit I haven't plugged them into anything yet (I have a big stash of 'x7s) - especially after one of my friends reported less than enjoyable sonics with his phono stage. I do know that some guitarists like 'em for their 'bite' - they are advertised for their low microphonics due to the small plate size - go figure.
Jim McShane said:
That made me curious, I have some JJ ECC83 S in my phono stage, turned the volume to max (SE EL 84 -no power monster..) and tapped the tubes
with my finger- I could hardly hear it.But I've had two faulty tubes too🙄
If it is those white round thingy's... They totally ruin the look of the whole amp. >If one is using tall skirt bases, better still is to ram a bit of chewing gum between the skirt and glass.
The lowest noise ECC83 I have on my bench is the Mazda NOS. Only one left. Who actually made the Mazda brand ?
richj
richwalters said:
Whoever was cheapest, usually Eastern European, possibly Tungsram? Mazda did not have a good reputation in the UK, so you've done well to find a good one.
Mazda reputedly was a British firm, but a lot of the tubes seem to have been manufactured in France.
All of the Mazda brand tubes I have in my stock (12AX7A and 12AU7A) were made in France, and in both cases they are amongst the best I have. Equal if different from Dutch/German Amperex and Telefunken.
I also have some Adzam 31 dht which were apparently Belgian made Mazda.. wink wink
All Mazda I have run across made prior to the end of the tube era - say early 1970's have been extraordinary.
All of the Mazda brand tubes I have in my stock (12AX7A and 12AU7A) were made in France, and in both cases they are amongst the best I have. Equal if different from Dutch/German Amperex and Telefunken.
I also have some Adzam 31 dht which were apparently Belgian made Mazda.. wink wink
All Mazda I have run across made prior to the end of the tube era - say early 1970's have been extraordinary.
richwalters said:
CIFTE/Mazda were a french company, sometimes military labelled
There are also Japanese tubes labelled MAZDA from the 1950's and 1960's
Last source I knew of for the CIFTE/Mazda tubes was Lorenz Tang in Hong Kong, he sells on Ebay as "Bugleman"; nice tubes!
Best of these I've had were bright chrome shields inside the tube ( seller called these "Silver" )
Best value for money I've found for available ECC-83's were Gold pin EI "Elites", very low noise floor, nice tonal balance and dynamic
I sourced these ex-UK, but a websearch will find these easy enough, at US$9.95 -$13.50 a tube; these are a Bargain
El Gypsy
Mazda - a tangled industrial web disrupted by wars.
Originally made in France and Belgium, and sold in England. The French CIFTE and Belgian MBLE plants ended up as part of the Philips Group, and while the parent works had the name Mazda over the door, the products were sold marked as CIFTE or MBLE (Mazda Belgique Lampes Electronique, I think).
The Mazda trademark came under the control of Siemens Edison Swan Ltd of Woolwich, which stopped selling valves as Ediswan in the 50s and used the Mazda name on all its valves. In the 50s and 60s it was very common to buy in and relabel stock from other manufacturers, so many valves marked Mazda are made by other manufacturers. I have a collection of ECC83 types, and many of the Mazda were actually made by Brimar - and vice versa! I also have an odd one or two Mazda valves made by Siemens & Halske, Tesla, and Hungarian Tungsram. Just to anger the snobs, if you buy an old ECC804 it was probably made by Siemens Edison Swan, even if it is marked Mullard Made in GB!
In the 60s EMI was pursuing an out-dated policy designed to vertically control the UK music industry, and they brought all the important English valve manufacturers under the Thorn-AEI umbrella. When they had finished rationalising and closing things down, the only manufacturer left in the group was Mullard, and Mazda remained as a distributor.
GEC-MOV remained independent of EMI until their US parent pulled the plug on them around 1980 (which must have irritated the EMI management as their factory was close to the EMI HQ).
To summarise - the Mazda name was applied to valves made in the Siemens Edison Swan factory at Woolwich. Many Mazda valves were of similar good quality, but made by other manufacturers. These valves have white print.
Into the 70s Mazda was functioning as a distributor of replacement valves, and was selling a lot of valves from a variety of sources, which might be of excellent quality - or not as good as we were used to in GB - these later valves had blue print.
Originally made in France and Belgium, and sold in England. The French CIFTE and Belgian MBLE plants ended up as part of the Philips Group, and while the parent works had the name Mazda over the door, the products were sold marked as CIFTE or MBLE (Mazda Belgique Lampes Electronique, I think).
The Mazda trademark came under the control of Siemens Edison Swan Ltd of Woolwich, which stopped selling valves as Ediswan in the 50s and used the Mazda name on all its valves. In the 50s and 60s it was very common to buy in and relabel stock from other manufacturers, so many valves marked Mazda are made by other manufacturers. I have a collection of ECC83 types, and many of the Mazda were actually made by Brimar - and vice versa! I also have an odd one or two Mazda valves made by Siemens & Halske, Tesla, and Hungarian Tungsram. Just to anger the snobs, if you buy an old ECC804 it was probably made by Siemens Edison Swan, even if it is marked Mullard Made in GB!
In the 60s EMI was pursuing an out-dated policy designed to vertically control the UK music industry, and they brought all the important English valve manufacturers under the Thorn-AEI umbrella. When they had finished rationalising and closing things down, the only manufacturer left in the group was Mullard, and Mazda remained as a distributor.
GEC-MOV remained independent of EMI until their US parent pulled the plug on them around 1980 (which must have irritated the EMI management as their factory was close to the EMI HQ).
To summarise - the Mazda name was applied to valves made in the Siemens Edison Swan factory at Woolwich. Many Mazda valves were of similar good quality, but made by other manufacturers. These valves have white print.
Into the 70s Mazda was functioning as a distributor of replacement valves, and was selling a lot of valves from a variety of sources, which might be of excellent quality - or not as good as we were used to in GB - these later valves had blue print.
To go back to the original question - old valves command premium prices because they were made with processes involving materials which are difficult to use because of modern Health and Safety issues - eg. thorium is common in the cathode coating of old valves, and it is radioactive. That does not mean that old valves are inherently dangerous - there is a small radioactive source in a lot of smoke detectors - tiny amounts present a low risk.
They cannot make them like they used to. Generally speaking, New Old Stock (NOS) valves of Western manufacture will outperform any valves made recently.
However, the modern manufacturers are getting very close to making valves as good as 60s production, without the health hazards to their workers.
New Sensor are at the forefront of this movement - but they are under threat from Russian business methods at the moment. The City Council (under the influence of a local Fat Cat who wants their building) want them to move away - token compensation offered!
There are still some genuine bargains in NOS valves. 1970s Russian production is cheaply available on eBay, and the Russian EL84 and E88CC equivalents are just two examples of good valves that can be bought at low prices.
A lot of the new stuff is a compromise - you get some makes that sound good, but don't last very long, and some that last longer but don't sound as good - if you get what I mean. And there are some new production valves still being made in the "old-fashioned" way, in US and the Czech Republic (they are NOT cheap).
If you want the best sound, you have to pay to get it. Just be aware that you do not always get what you paid for - the valve/tube world is full of salesmen with products that defy the laws of physics.
They cannot make them like they used to. Generally speaking, New Old Stock (NOS) valves of Western manufacture will outperform any valves made recently.
However, the modern manufacturers are getting very close to making valves as good as 60s production, without the health hazards to their workers.
New Sensor are at the forefront of this movement - but they are under threat from Russian business methods at the moment. The City Council (under the influence of a local Fat Cat who wants their building) want them to move away - token compensation offered!
There are still some genuine bargains in NOS valves. 1970s Russian production is cheaply available on eBay, and the Russian EL84 and E88CC equivalents are just two examples of good valves that can be bought at low prices.
A lot of the new stuff is a compromise - you get some makes that sound good, but don't last very long, and some that last longer but don't sound as good - if you get what I mean. And there are some new production valves still being made in the "old-fashioned" way, in US and the Czech Republic (they are NOT cheap).
If you want the best sound, you have to pay to get it. Just be aware that you do not always get what you paid for - the valve/tube world is full of salesmen with products that defy the laws of physics.
I am not a huge 12ax7 guy, but I do a lot of repairs, so what I have found is that the Sovtek 12ax7LSP, with their long plates, are great tubes out of the box but will get 'ringy' after a while (not always though). Same with the JJ ecc803s, which I really like but seem get ringy after a while.... or of you hit them at just the wrong operating point (I don't know why... it just happened a few times) they are a bit warmer sounding.
I don't particularly like the EH, but they are quiet and cheap and therefore worth a try. I also like the med-plate 'mullard reissue' from Groove Tubes, but some people have reported problems (I have not) and they are also warmer sounding.
I have not had microphonic problems with the JJ ecc83s, but I have had a lot of the filaments go open... the old, non-spiral wound versions seemed to take inrush current more gracefully.
Ei were all ringy, but I don't know if they are made anymore.
The Shuguang have been startlingly quiet and reliable. They sound a bit plain-jane, but even and predictable in my experience, so take it for what it is worth.
I have not tried the Tung-Sol reissues, but if you scrub off the silk screening, they are identical internally to the EH, so I would expect similarities... which could be good if they give the noise performance of the regular EH, but take the sonics up a notch.
I don't particularly like the EH, but they are quiet and cheap and therefore worth a try. I also like the med-plate 'mullard reissue' from Groove Tubes, but some people have reported problems (I have not) and they are also warmer sounding.
I have not had microphonic problems with the JJ ecc83s, but I have had a lot of the filaments go open... the old, non-spiral wound versions seemed to take inrush current more gracefully.
Ei were all ringy, but I don't know if they are made anymore.
The Shuguang have been startlingly quiet and reliable. They sound a bit plain-jane, but even and predictable in my experience, so take it for what it is worth.
I have not tried the Tung-Sol reissues, but if you scrub off the silk screening, they are identical internally to the EH, so I would expect similarities... which could be good if they give the noise performance of the regular EH, but take the sonics up a notch.
did anyone try the JJ ECC803S Gold pin yet ? Is this version sound better or just cosmetically better ?
i purchased more than 50pcs ecc803s, and all of them were good....so i think i was lucky.....
thx...
i purchased more than 50pcs ecc803s, and all of them were good....so i think i was lucky.....
thx...
Hi,
Have you checked an auto store for the red silicone oil seals or black neoprene ones? Look better than the white ones found on fleabay or stores and are a fraction of the cost of a "real" dampener.
As for the 12AX7 tubes, I'm kind of fond of RCA NOS myself 🙂
Cheers!
richwalters said:
Have you checked an auto store for the red silicone oil seals or black neoprene ones? Look better than the white ones found on fleabay or stores and are a fraction of the cost of a "real" dampener.
As for the 12AX7 tubes, I'm kind of fond of RCA NOS myself 🙂
Cheers!
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