Greetings folks - long time lurker looking for recommendations or guidance on a planned 2-way project. This is a music only system.
Design brief is for a 2-way system using a ported/vented enclosure up to 500-600hz. 4" TAD or JBL 2426 (w/True Extent beryllium diaphragms) will cover 500-15k+ on a suitable TBD horn - most likely Iwata 300, JMLC or Yuichi Arai.
A three way with a suitable hifi section from 6k-20k could be contemplated later. I would likely use the Gauss HF4000 for MF in this scenario. First, I need to get the LF section sorted.
I know many will find fault (for valid sonic reasons), but this design will be entirely passive: no dsp, eq or subs/separate LF reinforcement.
High efficiency from the 15" is required, as the system will be powered primarily by tube amplification from low power SET to 70watt tube designs.
The enclosures for this project are already built: ~6.8 cu ft Altec Iconic/612 replicas, with removable/replaceable front baffle, so any front vent/port arrangement can be accommodated.
I'm writing today to collect your recommendations for 15" drivers - present or past (as long as they can be acquired).
I would like to achieve the absolute best accuracy, texture and timbral realism possible up to 500hz, as well as best possible LF extension to 40hz or lower. Is 35hz possible? Cost is not a factor.
Drivers I'm currently considering include JBL 2225, 2234, 2235, 2226, Altec 416 (ideally 416-8b), AE T15X, AE T15M, TAD 1601a/b, TAD 1603. What am I missing?
I have most "ear time" with the Altec 416-8b in large enclosures. It has great performance. The Altec 515 would be wasted on a design crossing so low, plus, anemic LF performance (I know it's technically good, so let's say anemic LF/midbass impact/punch).
Has anyone compared any of the JBL/TAD/Altec designs and be willing to offer thoughts/data on best performance for this application?
Are there any drivers out there that have significantly 'better' sonically than the Altec 416, with better LF impact, and which also have comparable efficiency? I hope so.... while the 416 is a wonderful driver, I would love to hear something that matches its timbral realism but adds more LF authority/midbass punch. That would be my ideal driver from a sonic perspective.
If there is no such driver, and I were to drop the requirement for super-high efficiency/good LF performance with <10 watts - making minimum power closer to 20-30 watts - would this put other drivers in the running? Which ones? High power solid state amplification is not an option.
I am fully aware of the compromises involved with foregoing dsp - no real need to rub salt in the wound or discuss the why's of that aspect of the design.
Thanks in advance for your assistance!
Design brief is for a 2-way system using a ported/vented enclosure up to 500-600hz. 4" TAD or JBL 2426 (w/True Extent beryllium diaphragms) will cover 500-15k+ on a suitable TBD horn - most likely Iwata 300, JMLC or Yuichi Arai.
A three way with a suitable hifi section from 6k-20k could be contemplated later. I would likely use the Gauss HF4000 for MF in this scenario. First, I need to get the LF section sorted.
I know many will find fault (for valid sonic reasons), but this design will be entirely passive: no dsp, eq or subs/separate LF reinforcement.
High efficiency from the 15" is required, as the system will be powered primarily by tube amplification from low power SET to 70watt tube designs.
The enclosures for this project are already built: ~6.8 cu ft Altec Iconic/612 replicas, with removable/replaceable front baffle, so any front vent/port arrangement can be accommodated.
I'm writing today to collect your recommendations for 15" drivers - present or past (as long as they can be acquired).
I would like to achieve the absolute best accuracy, texture and timbral realism possible up to 500hz, as well as best possible LF extension to 40hz or lower. Is 35hz possible? Cost is not a factor.
Drivers I'm currently considering include JBL 2225, 2234, 2235, 2226, Altec 416 (ideally 416-8b), AE T15X, AE T15M, TAD 1601a/b, TAD 1603. What am I missing?
I have most "ear time" with the Altec 416-8b in large enclosures. It has great performance. The Altec 515 would be wasted on a design crossing so low, plus, anemic LF performance (I know it's technically good, so let's say anemic LF/midbass impact/punch).
Has anyone compared any of the JBL/TAD/Altec designs and be willing to offer thoughts/data on best performance for this application?
Are there any drivers out there that have significantly 'better' sonically than the Altec 416, with better LF impact, and which also have comparable efficiency? I hope so.... while the 416 is a wonderful driver, I would love to hear something that matches its timbral realism but adds more LF authority/midbass punch. That would be my ideal driver from a sonic perspective.
If there is no such driver, and I were to drop the requirement for super-high efficiency/good LF performance with <10 watts - making minimum power closer to 20-30 watts - would this put other drivers in the running? Which ones? High power solid state amplification is not an option.
I am fully aware of the compromises involved with foregoing dsp - no real need to rub salt in the wound or discuss the why's of that aspect of the design.
Thanks in advance for your assistance!
Greets!
Not comparative auditions of my own designs and the consumer, etc., differences otherwise makes comparing them an exercise in futility IME; factor in I've been Altec centric basically all my 75 yrs makes me quite biased WRT sonics, but not from a purely technical POV, so Tad is less 'colorful', ergo arguably more accurate, but if I were to build another 'top drawer' system for myself and able to afford it, it would be GOTO based.
Not comparative auditions of my own designs and the consumer, etc., differences otherwise makes comparing them an exercise in futility IME; factor in I've been Altec centric basically all my 75 yrs makes me quite biased WRT sonics, but not from a purely technical POV, so Tad is less 'colorful', ergo arguably more accurate, but if I were to build another 'top drawer' system for myself and able to afford it, it would be GOTO based.
Hi,
None of the JBL's listed are SOTA ( or even that obtainable ).
The current favored JBL is the 2216nd ( as found in the JBL M2 studio monitor ).
2216nd EDS info, from LHF
Many custom built M2's have been made ( over at LHF ) and the enthusiasm for this woofer is dangerously universal ( for the pocket-book of someone like me ) .
Mms + motor strength ( along with other design dna factors such as it's differential drive ) combine to move this woofer's voicing more towards the TAD offerings ( iow; great slam > while still retaining excellent articulation and tone at increased levels ) .
Price is very accessible at $600.00 ( for a world class woofer ) .
Available from ReconingSpeakers ( in Florida ).
- Use Google, I think I need to be conservative about linking directly to the product.
🙂
The Beyma SM-115/N is a great driver for that band and does remind me as the old 515 (I never heared the 416), but with more accurate and lower bass. It fits that box with 3 round portd of 4" diameter and 7,7" long for a tuning of 38Hz F3. Sensivity is said to be 98dB, but i would guess it more at 96dB in real life looking at the graphs they publish. I don't know if it fit's what you are after, but it would be an option for me for that.
https://www.beyma.com/speakers/Fich...akers-data-sheet-low-mid-frequency-SM115N.pdf
But Altec (the old one) has a very special sound colour that no other has. Old JBL is the closed to that. If you after that, no modern driver will meet your needs but those of GPA, the company who still build the original or a close derivation from it and has all the original tooling and so to do it.
https://www.beyma.com/speakers/Fich...akers-data-sheet-low-mid-frequency-SM115N.pdf
But Altec (the old one) has a very special sound colour that no other has. Old JBL is the closed to that. If you after that, no modern driver will meet your needs but those of GPA, the company who still build the original or a close derivation from it and has all the original tooling and so to do it.
As you know from my posts by now, the search is no easy task, and am starting to come around to this... when time and money are factored in, sometimes it's best to just do it right from the get go. My limited exposure to the JBL driver was enough to convince me it was worth the squeeze if you got the cheese. The documented work done with it alone, adds highly to the value, knowing there is a knowledgebase to draw from.
Thanks so much for your reply GM. It's nice to know you all are getting what I'm after.
I hesitated to post my question here (or anywhere else for that matter) for a few reasons: a) It's very difficult to articulate the sonic qualities of a driver well enough to support a conversation that can include folks who haven't heard it, b) I expect the goals of this project, i.e., seeking something 'better' than a 50 year old driver, will strike some as ludicrous - especially some of the more knowledgeable folks here whose opinions I really respect. c) As you pointed out, of course, there are many 'better' drivers, especially from a technical perspective. I'm thinking about the TAD 1603, as they still seem to be occasionally available.
I have to say I was pretty surprised at the paucity of online anecdotal observations comparing some of Altec's best drivers with others - whether JBL, TAD, et al. Very few that I could find that were in depth. JBL vs TAD was easier, due to the lineage.
All that said, if gaining better low-mid articulation and LF performance means moving a few degrees away from the 'color' of Altecs, I think I'm at the point where I'm willing to do it. A few degrees.
Thanks again for your input. The Goto stuff looks really cool. Eye watering prices aside, it seems it could be challenging to get ahold of. I would love to hear it though. Have you had an opportunity to?
My lengthy delay in responding was at least partially due to the 2216nd rabbit hole I've just emerged from. Seriously, thanks for pointing me in this direction Earl. Have you had an opportunity to hear the nd or the nd-1? You weren't kidding about "dangerously universal praise". It's too lavish AND universal to ignore, so the 2216nd are definitely on the list.
Part of the reason I didn't so much time looking into these so was because I was kept waiting for a catch.... but there really doesn't seem to be one - especially relative to price.
The ONLY thing that caught my eye was a suggestion that the 2216-nd were designed to be driven via dsp, while the -01 was designed to be run passive. No idea about the veracity of the comment... and none of the raw driver measurements I've seen really bear this out in a compelling way. Any idea about this?
Have you had a chance to hear the nd or nd-01? After doing vintage/hard to find for so long, it would feel like cheating to just... place an order and have the drivers you want in 3-5 days!
This is so so true. I have a pair of Cetec Gauss HF4000 large format drivers that I love for what they do well. And they were good enough to be have been included in some very well thought out and designed studio monitors - early Westlakes, Optonica, (which I've always assumed was Panasonic's very Panasonic effort to launch a TAD-like division)... but the documented use of them in diy studio monitoring or hifi applications is very slim. 'Ys Audio" a Hong Kong-based hifi design company has a thoroughly documented build of a three way using Gauss 5831s (alnico 15s) to 500hz, Gauss HF4000s to about 5k, and Altec 808s on up. It was a personal speaker for one of the owners of the firm. Cabinet dimensions and crossover schematic included. Very nicely done. But other than a few Westlake crossover pics and Optonics schematics, there's very little documented work out there on them.
I'd love to hear more about your listening impressions of the 2216-nd and if it was in a passive or dsp'd system.
Sidebar: GM - I just looked at the Ys Audio site and found a section under 'owners' systems.' The components now used in that speaker are listed as: "Goto SG16TT , Gauss 4000 , Altec 416."
Thanks for pointing me in this direction. I've seen this Beyma driver mentioned more than once for applications like this and I'm very intereaed in it.
I'm currently using the 15" LF section of my Altec 604s, which is very similar to the 515, crossed at 800 with large format compression drivers. I don't know how similar the often horn loaded 515 sounds to my 604 in a vented box, but I understand they are very similar.
One thing I do know after several of years of hearing different designs based on these old Altec drivers - I really prefer the sound of the LF crossed at 800 or lower, as in many of the older Altec designs.
To my ears, good compression drivers in the right horns surpass the reproduction ability of even these exceptional vintage Altec drivers (and the modern GPA versions). And it's not *just* because some Altec designs (like the 604) require LF drivers to play higher than they probably should. I ran dual 12" Altec 414z cabs for a time, which can play beautifully up to 2k. I still prefered them crossed at 800hz. Go figure.
I just heard them for a brief moment but that woofer sounded very effortless. It was DSP, and while I didn't get to do any critical listening, another friend instantly said "so clean"... And theyre not really one for hifi... And even they couldn't deny there was something there.
At the end of the day, finding a woofer that is comparable is no easy feat. At some point you gotta ask yourself whether it's worth the time spent sourcing a driver. Then again, lots of this is just personal preferences. If the M2 type speakers are up your alley, and you're after a 15" driver, there's plenty out there for info. What you choose to do with it I think depends on the rest of the speaker. It's worth doing it right the first time IMO.
What about Faital Pro 15PR400? Have a look at the Calpamos project, http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/download/Humble Homemade Hifi_Calpamos.pdf, you can find some interesting consideration on moving mass and BL. Btw I'm enjoying 416-8B from a long time, I don't feel the need to change...
Hi,
The "2216nd-01" has something like a 3" wide coating of aquaplas applied to the back of the cone ( down near the surround-to-cone joint ).
I believe ( don't know ) that it also has a softer spider ( by one grade ).
All-in-all those two changes would//should result in a slightly more refined sound.
- Passive vs Active > there could be some truth to that.
No ( and I likely won't seek out an opportunity ). I already have some pretty Hi-Rez 15's ( JBL ME150H ) that are overkill and lost on my place ( with the killer room nodes I have ).
I also have a pair of 416-8C if I want to go that route.
One idea is to use a 15" JBL ( like the 2216nd ) in the bottom position of an MTM setup .
- The top position could be a 12" Altec 414 of some model ( for tone control ).
- This asymmetrical setup would offer the best of both Lansing lines ( best bass + best tone ).
- I haven't tried the 15/12 though since I'm more likely to move permanently to a 10" over a 14" ( for space reasons ). The JBL 14/10 has already proven itself worthy.
I find asymmetrical setups like these can offer the best of all worlds.
The one "sure-thing" opinion that I would keenly pay attention to would be the opinion of a long-time Altec lover ( with decades worth of ear-time on 416's + 515's ) and just what that person thinks of the 2216nd.
Sadly, that opinion isn't currently available ( as far as I know ).
🙂
Baaronj said:
The "2216nd-01" has something like a 3" wide coating of aquaplas applied to the back of the cone ( down near the surround-to-cone joint ).
I believe ( don't know ) that it also has a softer spider ( by one grade ).
All-in-all those two changes would//should result in a slightly more refined sound.
- Passive vs Active > there could be some truth to that.
No ( and I likely won't seek out an opportunity ). I already have some pretty Hi-Rez 15's ( JBL ME150H ) that are overkill and lost on my place ( with the killer room nodes I have ).
I also have a pair of 416-8C if I want to go that route.
One idea is to use a 15" JBL ( like the 2216nd ) in the bottom position of an MTM setup .
- The top position could be a 12" Altec 414 of some model ( for tone control ).
- This asymmetrical setup would offer the best of both Lansing lines ( best bass + best tone ).
- I haven't tried the 15/12 though since I'm more likely to move permanently to a 10" over a 14" ( for space reasons ). The JBL 14/10 has already proven itself worthy.
I find asymmetrical setups like these can offer the best of all worlds.
The one "sure-thing" opinion that I would keenly pay attention to would be the opinion of a long-time Altec lover ( with decades worth of ear-time on 416's + 515's ) and just what that person thinks of the 2216nd.
Sadly, that opinion isn't currently available ( as far as I know ).
🙂
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You're welcome!
Yes, one pair of woofers, though without my notes, don't recall the model, just they had an even lower measured Qts of any 15" I'm aware of [0.18 Qts] plus the main reason for my choice being in my youth I was fortunate to be exposed to numerous early cinema, studio and other prosound speakers from W.E., RCA, Lansing, Jensen, Altec/Lansing and IME [sadly, ~ limited to late '80s] only the GOTO is a modern day driver in the same vein, though without the Qts adjustability of the pioneer's having field coils.
In short, all these [cone] near full range [mid] woofers are wide range horn drivers in concept, so have pace, rhythm, timing [PRaT] 'to die for'.
Anyway, the vintage woofers I'm most familiar with are basically either a cone or curvilinear and this Altec, JBL diaphragm profiles Vs frequency referenced to a rigid piston [attached] clearly shows the difference better [to me anyway] than the pioneer's crude polar response plots.
For sure. Really wish there were an opportunity to hear one first, but I'm not in a metro area anymore, so chances are slim. Still, it seems to be the most compelling modern driver I've come across. Especially if you look at user enthusiasm relative to price.
Thanks Rainer - I'm not familiar with these. I will definitely check them out.
Thanks for sharing this. I've always enjoyed reading his thoughts on components. The Faital Pro was actually on my list to check out. His approach to dividing networks for that design was interesting - seemed very well thought out.
Isn't the Acoustic Elegance td15m worthy of this list? Its Mms is appeasing and one of the reasons why I chose it over the Jbl 2216. Xmax isn't as high as some of the drivers mentioned but leave the heavy lifting for another woofer. Bang for buck is very high for this driver.