A brief look at some Parts threads in this Forum involving Crossover parts has taken the wind out of my sails.
I thought it would be a simple task of carefully selecting replacement parts involved ensuring quality:
Inductors:
Select air core 16 gauge pure copper.
(avoiding iron core, thin gauge low purity copper winding)
Resistors:
Select quality examples which are non inductive.
(Avoid anything sandcast, and use of magnetic materials.
Capacitors:
Select quality examples avoiding cheap electrolytic designs.
After reading a few Parts threads on this subject I'm learning that there are almost as many variations on parts as there are Speaker manufacturers and Speaker models.
A nightmare to navigate.
I know variations can encompass, personal tastes, choice of musical source, equipment and loudspeakers involved which will play a part in making a selection, not to mention actual testing of performance.
For the simple enthusiast who is just looking for best bang for buck speaker crossover improvement, but isn't particularly technical and doesn't want to sink a kings ransom, is there such a thing as "go to" Capacitors, Resisters, & Inductors, not to mention binding posts (free of iron), which can make a difference to the performance of ones Loudspeakers?
Not only brands to choose, but a reasonably supplier?
cheers
Cliff
I thought it would be a simple task of carefully selecting replacement parts involved ensuring quality:
Inductors:
Select air core 16 gauge pure copper.
(avoiding iron core, thin gauge low purity copper winding)
Resistors:
Select quality examples which are non inductive.
(Avoid anything sandcast, and use of magnetic materials.
Capacitors:
Select quality examples avoiding cheap electrolytic designs.
After reading a few Parts threads on this subject I'm learning that there are almost as many variations on parts as there are Speaker manufacturers and Speaker models.
A nightmare to navigate.
I know variations can encompass, personal tastes, choice of musical source, equipment and loudspeakers involved which will play a part in making a selection, not to mention actual testing of performance.
For the simple enthusiast who is just looking for best bang for buck speaker crossover improvement, but isn't particularly technical and doesn't want to sink a kings ransom, is there such a thing as "go to" Capacitors, Resisters, & Inductors, not to mention binding posts (free of iron), which can make a difference to the performance of ones Loudspeakers?
Not only brands to choose, but a reasonably supplier?
cheers
Cliff
You won't find "low purity copper winding", any electrical copper wire is fine. What you might find in cheap imports is CCA windings (aluminium), avoid these like the plague. Winding your own air-core inductors isn't too hard BTW, various websites with calculators and hints/tips.
For low value resistors self-inductance isn't normally an issue, there are too few turns to give enough inductance to matter at audio frequencies (certainly its way less than the driver's self-inductances), but then again that's rather difficult to check so metal film is a good choice if available in the power rating. Metal foil is another possibility, if there's a heatsink available to bolt to.
Capacitors should be easy, polypropylene from normal reputable electronics supplier.
For non-standard values of capacitancc simply parallel them up with standard E6 or E12
ones. Paralleling resistors is a good way to get higher power from metal film too.
And terminal posts - simply switch over to SpeakOn connectors ?
For low value resistors self-inductance isn't normally an issue, there are too few turns to give enough inductance to matter at audio frequencies (certainly its way less than the driver's self-inductances), but then again that's rather difficult to check so metal film is a good choice if available in the power rating. Metal foil is another possibility, if there's a heatsink available to bolt to.
Capacitors should be easy, polypropylene from normal reputable electronics supplier.
For non-standard values of capacitancc simply parallel them up with standard E6 or E12
ones. Paralleling resistors is a good way to get higher power from metal film too.
And terminal posts - simply switch over to SpeakOn connectors ?
Parts express is a good starting point for the parts. They have a pretty nice selection of parts. Not the best but pretty good to get your feet wet , and you can call tech and they can help you
Thanks Carl.
I'd love to use them.
Unfortunately shipping from USA to Aust is a killer.
C
Thanks Mark
Are there copper colored aluminium or metal windings disguised as copper?
How do you test or tell?
I also thought a minimal gauge is important?
What does E6 & E12 refer to?
By paralleling them do you mean 2 x Caps @ 50 microfarad, instead of a single Cap @ 100 microfarad and does this result in higher power handling?
cheers
C
Are there copper colored aluminium or metal windings disguised as copper?
How do you test or tell?
I also thought a minimal gauge is important?
Which metal? Is copper a good choice?
What does E6 & E12 refer to?
By paralleling them do you mean 2 x Caps @ 50 microfarad, instead of a single Cap @ 100 microfarad and does this result in higher power handling?
I thought Speakon terminals are good at proving a secure connection, but don't necessarily improve sound???
cheers
C
As I have no electrical training and limited experience, initially my aim is to upgrade either poor quality crossover parts in modern Loudspeakers, or to replace deteriorated crossover parts in vintage Loudspeakers.
I understand that the correct way to build crossovers is by testing Loudspeakers and designing the crossover to balance any deficiencies, but until I can do that, I'd be sticking to the manufacturers specs, unless a Poster has had positive experience on a design for a given Loudspeaker model, they might share.
I have a number of Loudspeakers here I'd like to experiment with.
Heres an example.
Wharfedale Diamond 3
The nasty crossover parts include:
XPOTUS 3w 2.2ohm J
AP ALCAP AL 450 MFD 50VNP x 1
AP ALCAP AL 6 MFD 50VNP x 1
AP ALCAP AL 2.2 MFD 50VNP x 1
Air Core Inductor with almost hair thin guage copper weinding.
What parts would you upgrade these to?
thanks
C
I understand that the correct way to build crossovers is by testing Loudspeakers and designing the crossover to balance any deficiencies, but until I can do that, I'd be sticking to the manufacturers specs, unless a Poster has had positive experience on a design for a given Loudspeaker model, they might share.
I have a number of Loudspeakers here I'd like to experiment with.
Heres an example.
Wharfedale Diamond 3
The nasty crossover parts include:
XPOTUS 3w 2.2ohm J
AP ALCAP AL 450 MFD 50VNP x 1
AP ALCAP AL 6 MFD 50VNP x 1
AP ALCAP AL 2.2 MFD 50VNP x 1
Air Core Inductor with almost hair thin guage copper weinding.
What parts would you upgrade these to?
thanks
C
Attachments
cut the end, look at the colour, but the weight is a clue!
yes that too.
For caps either will work, Al is cheaper easier to source, but really you should be looking at the ESR in the datasheet.
First hit on Google for me.
Not my point, which is that if a 3.7uF cap is needed you'll have to parallel 2.2 and 1.5, as 3.7 isn't even E24.
Huh? Its a high-current connector rated to 40A, brass not steel (unless you go for cheap chinese copies - that's worth noting!). And no connector can improve sound, the best you can expect is no degradation of the signal. And so much more convenient that terminals...
Sorry Mark.
I meant to indicate the same thing, only in a reverse way.
When I indicated I was looking for an improved sound, I meant "less degraded sound" by eliminating iron from the circuit.
I read somewhere that brass is only one quarter as conductive compared to copper.
If the Loudspeaker terminals were of brass, wouldn't this impact the the sound?
No.
Your loudspeaker probably puts out 20% HD (harmonic distortion). distortion of a brass terminal is trivial.
The only speaker with a HD spec I've ever seen is one I own. It sounds really good at 1W or less. The spec is 2nd harmonic 20 db down from signal all frequencies 54 hz-14.5 khz. What's that, 12% HD?
If you really want to improve the crossover, 20 year old electrolytic capacitors are low hanging fruit. The rubber seal breaks & they dry out, at some point. Depends on the quality of the rubber they vendor bought, reflected in the service life in hours of the cap. I've found no electrolytic NP caps with a service life quoted on the datasheet.
Polyprophylene caps are now small enough they can be squeezed in on most crossover boards. Those last forever.
Another low hanging fruit is the speaker wire. On really difficult material (top octave solo Steinway piano) I hear pitch instability on 6.3 m of 16 ga zip cord. The name of that is intermodulation distortion. I do not hear that on 2.3 m of 10SO3 cord. Each 10 ga conductor is 400+ strands. It was salvage from the dumpster, but you can buy some from industrial supplies for much less than the "audio grade" phoolery. Made for hooking up 1 hp 3 phase AC motors. Make sure you can hear the problem before wasting money. Most males over age 10 have ruined their high frequency cilia already with fireworks, guns, motors, or loud "music"
Keep in mind that the capacitor ESR in the tweeter circuit was likely factored into the final acoustics of the speaker. High ESR electrolytics will attenuate the treble output. If you replace with a same value film capacitor (w/ near zero ESR) the tweeter will play a louder. May be a good thing or it may sound horrible. This can be fixed with a series or shunt resistor pad but it is a factor you should be aware of. You will be a step ahead instead of "Why are my tweeters so bright?".
Thanks speaker.
Coincidentally, I'm reviewing my Soundynamics Loudspeakers.
Early 80's 2 way with 10" Woofer and 1" dome tweeter with wave guide.
These sound very satisfying in the bass region, but compared to other speakers I own, they lack in treble detail and perhaps loudness.
It sounds that going to the film caps will solve this.
Your advise is very welcome.
Knowing this phenomena (cheap caps vs film) is useful information.
If the tweeter did become overly bright, where would I fit the shunt resister in the circuit?
Is it polarity driven or can I fit resister terminals in either direction?
What value would you select?
By the way, the crossover I'll be upgrading currently has:
Cheap sandcast resitster: 7watt 2 ohm
Capacitors: Intercap 4.7mfd 250v & Intercap 4.7mfd 100v
Inductor: Air core, thin copper winding, 35mm diam, 15mm centre hole, & 7mm high
Can I go 10watt with resister replacement?
Is there a reason a 100v cap was added?
When I replace caps, should I select 2 X 4.7mfd caps @ 250v?
Power grid in my country is 250v.
If you were upgrading the sandcast resister would you go Metal Oxide to avoid windings, or a good regular wire wound, as inductance in resisters is said to be minimal?
thanks
C
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100 vac on 8 ohms is 500 W. It is very unlikely you are going to drive the Sounddynamics speaker with that much power. Probably rip the woofer suspension & burn the tweeter. So no, a 60 v capacitor is probably fine in a home speaker run @ 1 W average, maybe 60 W peak. Select your cap voltage from the P=(V^2)/Z formula. P is your amp max rms power. Z is nominal speaker impedance, usually about 120% of the resistance.
1" tweeters don't get much respect over on PA systems. I have a pair of KLH23 that have a 2.5" paper cone tweeter, sounds rather nice actually. Probably cost a whole $2. Especially if the 1" tweeters you have are really piezo mallories or copies instead of real silk dome, which I have heard a few nice words about. Hole in the middle of the response curve is a problem. Also smaller tweeters don't disperse the highs evenly over a wide set of angles from dead front.
Loudspeaker design is an art, and to Speaker's point, wrong ESR can change the balance of the drivers radically. To my point in post 11, dried up electrolytic caps go high on ESR, so measuring 20 year old electrolytic caps for ESR won't tell you much of anything. If the electrolytic caps meet the specs in the Peak meter book, that means you have another couple of years or maybe more or less on your old caps.
Film caps will only affect driver balance if the electrolytic caps in there are out of spec. Polyprophylene gets a lot of respect from John Curl for linear DF, which is nice, and if your driver's are world class, you might be able to hear it.
Speaker drivers are highly inductive except for piezo tweeters, or rareties like the capacitive magnaplaners (which you don't have) so I wouldn't worry about wirewound impedance much.
If you really want to get in this, invest in a non-echoic chamber, a speaker tester mike, and some sweep and analyzer software for a PC. Parts-express here has a nice package, but your AUS vendor probably has a nice package he can order from somewhere closer than Ohio.
Remember, every bit of fluff you took out of your speaker to reach the crossover was there to break up standing waves. My KLH23 didn't have any, but they were $99 speakers new on closeout. Wharfdales had a bit more of a reputation at one time.
1" tweeters don't get much respect over on PA systems. I have a pair of KLH23 that have a 2.5" paper cone tweeter, sounds rather nice actually. Probably cost a whole $2. Especially if the 1" tweeters you have are really piezo mallories or copies instead of real silk dome, which I have heard a few nice words about. Hole in the middle of the response curve is a problem. Also smaller tweeters don't disperse the highs evenly over a wide set of angles from dead front.
Loudspeaker design is an art, and to Speaker's point, wrong ESR can change the balance of the drivers radically. To my point in post 11, dried up electrolytic caps go high on ESR, so measuring 20 year old electrolytic caps for ESR won't tell you much of anything. If the electrolytic caps meet the specs in the Peak meter book, that means you have another couple of years or maybe more or less on your old caps.
Film caps will only affect driver balance if the electrolytic caps in there are out of spec. Polyprophylene gets a lot of respect from John Curl for linear DF, which is nice, and if your driver's are world class, you might be able to hear it.
Speaker drivers are highly inductive except for piezo tweeters, or rareties like the capacitive magnaplaners (which you don't have) so I wouldn't worry about wirewound impedance much.
If you really want to get in this, invest in a non-echoic chamber, a speaker tester mike, and some sweep and analyzer software for a PC. Parts-express here has a nice package, but your AUS vendor probably has a nice package he can order from somewhere closer than Ohio.
Remember, every bit of fluff you took out of your speaker to reach the crossover was there to break up standing waves. My KLH23 didn't have any, but they were $99 speakers new on closeout. Wharfdales had a bit more of a reputation at one time.
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Cliff, have you been to LSK?
The Loudspeaker Kit
They stock a fair bit of PE's range, Dayton Audio, Peerless, VIFA, Scanspeak and SB Accoustics.
WES AUSTRALIA is another place has the same range and a extended range in SB Audience. I think they own LSK...
The Loudspeaker Kit
They stock a fair bit of PE's range, Dayton Audio, Peerless, VIFA, Scanspeak and SB Accoustics.
WES AUSTRALIA is another place has the same range and a extended range in SB Audience. I think they own LSK...
TBH I'm not sure they are worth "improving"
That big cap is there to limit the amount of bass getting though to the woofer and to sound balanced the top end is also pretty limited.
So why spend $100- on good components when you won't get a big benefit?
I personally love tinkering but I like to see a real improvement when I spend money of parts
That big cap is there to limit the amount of bass getting though to the woofer and to sound balanced the top end is also pretty limited.
So why spend $100- on good components when you won't get a big benefit?
I personally love tinkering but I like to see a real improvement when I spend money of parts
Thanks MD.
Now I'm confused.
I was thinking, as the existing caps a pretty ancient, then they'd be out of spec or not functioning correctly.
Won't going polypropylene result in improvement?
Also, at the very least, junking the sandcast resisters for quality replacements at $4 a pop, isn't this worth doing?
Regarding caps, if they were replaced what voltage is recommended?
thanks
C
My time is limited but analyzing is the way to go.
Thanks for your tips.
By fluff, do you mean internal lining material?