Hi guys. I'm making OLB15 by TOREL.
I just can't decide which one to buy. Ciare special looking one, pricey 96db.
Faital looks nice but cone is made from fiberglass. 99db, price is ok
Measurements from torel's site show that Faital is better than Ciare.
The last one is Eminence Deltalite II 2515. Lightest, 99db, paper cone.
Please help me choose.
I just can't decide which one to buy. Ciare special looking one, pricey 96db.
Faital looks nice but cone is made from fiberglass. 99db, price is ok
Measurements from torel's site show that Faital is better than Ciare.
The last one is Eminence Deltalite II 2515. Lightest, 99db, paper cone.
Please help me choose.
I am using the Eminence Deltalite II 2515 nude in a new open baffle project. I have to say this is a really nice driver for this application. High sensitivity, very smooth on and off axis response, and pretty good distortion figures. It has almost 5mm Xmax, which is plenty for my needs (I am crossing it over to subwoofers around 120Hz). I would not recommend using this in a dipole application for the lowest few octaves - it just doesn't have enough Xmax or a high enough Qts for that.
I'm attaching some plots of measurements that I took with the driver suspended from wires hanging in free space.
I'm attaching some plots of measurements that I took with the driver suspended from wires hanging in free space.
Attachments
Ny choice was the Faital Pro 15PR400 which by the way has a paper pulp cone, not a fibre glass as mentioned by the OP. I have it working in an OB design crossing over at 230 c/s to a SB MW16P-8, from that to a SB 29RDC around 2Kc/s.
Matching the Faital's 99db sensitivity to the SB Satori MW16P-8 required a 12.2 ohm resistor in series with the LR2 crossover plus an additional 3 ohms directly in series with the woofer. As the Qts of the Faital is only 0.32 this large value of series resistance helps to raise the effective Qts of the driver. I am not sure as to how to calculate that Qts but the overall effect results in deep bass that makes home theatre enjoyable without a subwoofer.
Personally, I think the Faital is easily the equivalent in performance of any of the others mentioned above, it's just a matter of choice.
Faital Pro 15PR400 Speakers - Faital Pro 15PR400 bass guitar and PA speaker that has a lightweight neodymium magnet - Faital Pro 15PR400 800 watt high efficiency of 100dB SPL woofer for all mid-bass and bass applications. Faital Pro 15PR400 sp
C.M
Matching the Faital's 99db sensitivity to the SB Satori MW16P-8 required a 12.2 ohm resistor in series with the LR2 crossover plus an additional 3 ohms directly in series with the woofer. As the Qts of the Faital is only 0.32 this large value of series resistance helps to raise the effective Qts of the driver. I am not sure as to how to calculate that Qts but the overall effect results in deep bass that makes home theatre enjoyable without a subwoofer.
Personally, I think the Faital is easily the equivalent in performance of any of the others mentioned above, it's just a matter of choice.
Faital Pro 15PR400 Speakers - Faital Pro 15PR400 bass guitar and PA speaker that has a lightweight neodymium magnet - Faital Pro 15PR400 800 watt high efficiency of 100dB SPL woofer for all mid-bass and bass applications. Faital Pro 15PR400 sp
C.M
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I would choose that which has most silent motor, deltalite with deleted dustcap is quite dead silent, its quite open on back too. good sounding dominating 2nd harmonic distortion figures.
Sica 15 S 3 PL (8?)
could even lift up model like sica s3pl which has open structure as well, and open underneath spider.
and + thing i would choose 2-3" voicecoil so deleting that buzzing dustcap you wouldnt loose that much sd.
Sica 15 S 3 PL (8?)
could even lift up model like sica s3pl which has open structure as well, and open underneath spider.
and + thing i would choose 2-3" voicecoil so deleting that buzzing dustcap you wouldnt loose that much sd.
Fully agree with CharlieLaub. I have used it down to around 50 Hz crossed over to subwoofer. It DOES and can not play deep bas in Dipole configuration. I you are not willing to use subwoofers, steer away from this drive.
Hi,
I would like to comment that -to my understanding and empirical findings- Troels Gravesen deliberately uses low Q drivers with baffle step compensation circuits. This has the effect of a double Q -low Q for the higher frequencies and higher for the lower frequencies. The result is high sensitivity with a roll off down to 35-40Hz, more than enough for a 15" woofer.
its not all just about measurements, but how a driver sounds!
The Faital 15PR400 is by far the best out of the lot. I have used all the drivers listed here and the FP is better in the critical midrange than the others. It is very clean sounding and never sounds bright or strained. I wont use any thing else. Volti use it in their Alura and Vitora!
The Faital 15PR400 is by far the best out of the lot. I have used all the drivers listed here and the FP is better in the critical midrange than the others. It is very clean sounding and never sounds bright or strained. I wont use any thing else. Volti use it in their Alura and Vitora!
Does it still apply even when Torel is cutting his woofers at around 200hz? (measurements of Torels XO)
Thanks for your input!
1) A driver with a low Q, will typically have a stronger magnet
2) A driver with a higher Q will typically have a smaller magnet (for instance Alpha 15a)
In my experience using a driver with a higher Q in dipole, leads to less need of baffelstep-compensation. Wheras the opposite is true for a driver with high Q.
I dont get what you mean with double Q 🙂 A baffelstep makes the sound above the baffelstep lower relative to that under the baffelstep, so that the level is even.
My room is small, which might be the reason why they would not produce low bass. In comparison a good 6" driver, for instance SB17 MFC 4 Ohm in a 15 Liter cabinet, can produce usable output down to 35 without any problem. Not sure about the level though, but high enough for normal listening.
Correct!
Also true, as M.J.King has shown in his articles. But at the cost of some 10db of SPL
The question is how to get high SPL. This requires a strong magnet -low Q- and baffle step compensation. The frequency responce bellow the baffle step stays unaffected while attenuated above it. The result is even frequency responce just like the higher Q driver without baffle step, but on a higher SPL. This is necessary in order to match SPL of the other drivers in Troel's OBL15. So to answer OP's question as well, take a high sensitivity woofer, compine it with appropriate baffle step compensation, cut it bellow 200Hz and then any of the three woofers mentioned would do.
MagicBus: Thanks for addressing my writing mistake. I of course meant:
"In my experience using a driver with a higher Q in dipole, leads to less need of baffelstep-compensation. Wheras the opposite is true for a driver with LOW Q."
I do not think we do not agree on this, but just to make it clear: If one does not use a very wide baffle, one needs to compensate for baffelstep - Even if the driver has a high Q value.
A good formula to get and idea about when on the frequence range baffelstep occurs is this one: 115/(Baffle width in meter). Include wings if one uses for instance U-dipole.
Though I have not tried many drivers, I would also use a driver with a strong magnet, high efficiency and low Fs. If the driver's Fs is higher than the lowest bass one wishes the speaker should be able to play, then choose another driver.
This is of course a matter about compromise, because normally a driver with a low Fs, has lower efficiency than a driver with a relatively higher Fs. So there are no free lunch in regards to bass and efficiency.
"In my experience using a driver with a higher Q in dipole, leads to less need of baffelstep-compensation. Wheras the opposite is true for a driver with LOW Q."
I do not think we do not agree on this, but just to make it clear: If one does not use a very wide baffle, one needs to compensate for baffelstep - Even if the driver has a high Q value.
A good formula to get and idea about when on the frequence range baffelstep occurs is this one: 115/(Baffle width in meter). Include wings if one uses for instance U-dipole.
Though I have not tried many drivers, I would also use a driver with a strong magnet, high efficiency and low Fs. If the driver's Fs is higher than the lowest bass one wishes the speaker should be able to play, then choose another driver.
This is of course a matter about compromise, because normally a driver with a low Fs, has lower efficiency than a driver with a relatively higher Fs. So there are no free lunch in regards to bass and efficiency.
Agreed Rokytheman. I would like to focus on one thing though; Imagine two woofers, one with F3 at 30Hz and 90db/w/m and the other with F3 at 40Hz at 100Hz/w/m. The second driver fitted with a baffle step compensation circuit could give F3 at 30Hz with a SPL above 90db/w/m.
Great review. I have used open baffles for many years (magnepan tympani bass panels and diy ribbons) and will never build a box speaker. Lately though I have fallen in with a group of evil men who use Eminence drivers and I was considering building a pair of open baffles based on PureAudio Project layout (15trio), to see if I can get a bit more slam than is possible from planars. Then I read your post.
Now the FaitalPro sells for USD259 from Parts Express. Shipping to Australia will add another $200. Yet in Australia these drivers retail for AUD229. Thats around USD 180. And shipping is free. So these drivers seem somewhat of a bargain here downunder.
Have you heard the new OB speakers made specially for PureAudio by Eminence? I have been told to get these but I would have to pay shipping etc and so not as cheap as locally sourced FaitalPro.
I suspect that my friends use Eminence speakers because they don't understand how to implement EQ and just know that Eminence are the default driver for OB woofer. OTOH I am very comfortable with most aspects of analog elwctronics and not worried by the need for EQ if I use FaitalPro drivers.
I also like the smooth freq response of Faital Pro. Much better than Eminence response which has a sharp peak from 1k. I currently use 1st order crossover at 660Hz with my planar/ribbon system, I don't think I could contemplate this with Eminence woofer but it looks very achieveable if I mate FaitalPro with a good FR driver - TangBand W8 1808 looks like it will work very well in this
Application.
Any further suggestions?
I used to play around with similar arraingment as you discribe. At the time I had 3 plainermagnetic bass panels ( Apogee Stage, and two others of my own design),. These were all mated with various DIY mid/tweeter ribbons of my own build as well as the Apogee mid/ tweet ribbon.
I wanted to investigate the possability of a cone open baff that could compete with the planer bass panels.
There were two significant issues
1- these planer designs all cross over between 500 and 700 hz. This means there is a fair amount of energy that the woofer is still doing even up to around 1 khz. I never found a 12-15 in woofer that could do it well enough to match the quality of that ribbon. It wasnt bad really BUT it just wasnt as convincing in the midrange. I cant remember what woofers were used but they were relativly cheap ones. Some were smooth and flat response through this region BUT they did not sound as clear and as belevable as the planer bass. Jut because a driver has a smooth response does not mean it is a high resolution low distortion response.
2- with the crossover up there above 500 or so you have no manipulation of deep bass level with respect to everything else wich you need for OB. Crossing over at say 150-200 you can manipulate the levels but not when crossed at 500 or so. At least not with the ideal crossover points AND slopes that give the best midrange wich is largly what these planers do best.
Maybe there is a 12-15 capable of doing the mids well enough to match the ribbon better BUT at that crossover you will likley need EQ to boost bass on a baffle that doesnt look like a barn door in your room.
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