The first time I heard a pair of Avantgarde Uno, I couldn't believe it and after that I've always had a thing for horn but the Uno is beyond what I could afford. Also being very efficient at probably about 95db, they were driven by some 15W 300B single-ended triode and hence the added realism. After that, I could never forget the soundstage. So the next best thing is to clone something similar.
The JBL is a reasonable alternative to clone. The JBL is somewhat similar to the Uno is that both uses a horn loaded super tweeter, horn load compression driver for mid, and a conventional bass driver. So if you had to clone the JBL, what drivers would you use?
The JBL is a three way: 1 horn load super tweeter, 1 compression driver midrange, and 1 12in. bass. At least in theory, here are the drivers I would use. I looked up at PartExpress and come up with a set of alternate drives to the JBL and here what I found. I group them into two category: expensive and affordable. Target efficiency will be around 95dB.
Expensive:
1. Faital FD371 super tweeter ($172 each)
2. Faital HF146 compression mid driver ($256 each)
3. Faital LTH142 1.4'' Waveguide ($118 each)
4. FaitalPRO 12PR300 12" ($224 each)
Cross over from the compression to the bass will probably be about 1.3 Khz.
TOTAL: $1540 for drivers/probably $200 for xover components.
Affordable:
1. Fostex 025H27 Super Tweeter ($32 each)
2. PRV D3240TI 2in. ($109 each)
3. PRV WG14-50 Waveguide ($23 each)
4. Dayton Audio PA310 12'' ($65 each)
TOTAL: $458 for drivers.
The difference between the expensive and affordable is that the expensive version drivers have smoother frequency response so you can use lower order filters
Those would be my driver selection. I would like to see which drivers you would use if you had to clone the JBL 4429.
I am surprised to see that the JBL 4429 is only rated at 91dB. The clone version will have efficiency of about 95dB or more.
The JBL is a reasonable alternative to clone. The JBL is somewhat similar to the Uno is that both uses a horn loaded super tweeter, horn load compression driver for mid, and a conventional bass driver. So if you had to clone the JBL, what drivers would you use?
The JBL is a three way: 1 horn load super tweeter, 1 compression driver midrange, and 1 12in. bass. At least in theory, here are the drivers I would use. I looked up at PartExpress and come up with a set of alternate drives to the JBL and here what I found. I group them into two category: expensive and affordable. Target efficiency will be around 95dB.
Expensive:
1. Faital FD371 super tweeter ($172 each)
2. Faital HF146 compression mid driver ($256 each)
3. Faital LTH142 1.4'' Waveguide ($118 each)
4. FaitalPRO 12PR300 12" ($224 each)
Cross over from the compression to the bass will probably be about 1.3 Khz.
TOTAL: $1540 for drivers/probably $200 for xover components.
Affordable:
1. Fostex 025H27 Super Tweeter ($32 each)
2. PRV D3240TI 2in. ($109 each)
3. PRV WG14-50 Waveguide ($23 each)
4. Dayton Audio PA310 12'' ($65 each)
TOTAL: $458 for drivers.
The difference between the expensive and affordable is that the expensive version drivers have smoother frequency response so you can use lower order filters
Those would be my driver selection. I would like to see which drivers you would use if you had to clone the JBL 4429.
I am surprised to see that the JBL 4429 is only rated at 91dB. The clone version will have efficiency of about 95dB or more.
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I am going to perform a few simulations. I don't have the drivers but I can obtain the frequency response for each driver from the manufacture datasheet.
The first version will be using the following drivers:
1. FaitalPRO FD371 Super Tweeter
2. FaitalPRO HF146 1.4'' Compression Midrange
3. FaitalPRO 12PR300 12in bass driver
The first three plots are from individual drivers. The overall efficiency is about 96dB.
The first version will be using the following drivers:
1. FaitalPRO FD371 Super Tweeter
2. FaitalPRO HF146 1.4'' Compression Midrange
3. FaitalPRO 12PR300 12in bass driver
The first three plots are from individual drivers. The overall efficiency is about 96dB.
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This one is similar to the one above but using a FaitalPRO 15PR400 15in. bass driver which will result in a gain in efficiency. This version will give about 98dB of efficiency.
This version will be using the following drivers:
1. FaitalPRO FD371 Super Tweeter
2. FaitalPRO HF146 1.4'' Compression Midrange
3. FaitalPRO 15PR400 15in bass driver
This version will be using the following drivers:
1. FaitalPRO FD371 Super Tweeter
2. FaitalPRO HF146 1.4'' Compression Midrange
3. FaitalPRO 15PR400 15in bass driver
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Here would be a more affordable version using 12in. base driver. The drivers are:
1. PRV Audio TW450Ti-Nd-4 Super Tweeter ($44 each)
2. PRV D3240TI Compress Mid ($100 each)
3. Dayton PA310-8 12in. ($66 each)
The first three plots are the freq. response of the super tweeter, compress mid, and 12in. bass respectively. The overall efficiency is about 95dB.
The difference between the affordable and expensive versions are the expensive versions have better frequency response, whereas the affordable version freq. response is somewhat ragged.
1. PRV Audio TW450Ti-Nd-4 Super Tweeter ($44 each)
2. PRV D3240TI Compress Mid ($100 each)
3. Dayton PA310-8 12in. ($66 each)
The first three plots are the freq. response of the super tweeter, compress mid, and 12in. bass respectively. The overall efficiency is about 95dB.
The difference between the affordable and expensive versions are the expensive versions have better frequency response, whereas the affordable version freq. response is somewhat ragged.
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I reworked the xover for the above example but this time using 3rd order electrical. The frequency response is a bit more even.
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I also reworked the 2nd order version to make the frequency response on the upper frequencies a bit more even. Also the resistive attenuation on the tweeter is slightly improved such that the impedance overall is lower which may be important for no-feedback tube amp. Too much impedance on the high frequencies could make the sound a bit harsh on the top ends.
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Here are all four versions. The tweeter section was reworked to lower the impedance on the high frequencies and as said above, it helps if using no-feedback tube amp.
1. Faital 12in. bass driver - 95dB
2. Faital 15in. bass driver - 98dB
3. Affordable 12in. bass driver using 2nd order - 95dB
4. Affordable 12in. bass driver using 3nd order - 95dB
1. Faital 12in. bass driver - 95dB
2. Faital 15in. bass driver - 98dB
3. Affordable 12in. bass driver using 2nd order - 95dB
4. Affordable 12in. bass driver using 3nd order - 95dB
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What I was wondering, why not try and 'clone' the Avantgarde Uno, if that's the one you liked so much?
When you put them side by side:
How much do they really have in common?
When you put them side by side:
How much do they really have in common?
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What I was wondering, why not try and 'clone' the Avantgarde Uno, if that's the one you liked so much?
When you put them side by side:
How much do they really have in common?
Cloning the "Uno" is probably beyond my diy skills. The JBL4429 would be a good alternative and closer to what I can do in term of diy. I don't have much info on the Uno, but it seems like it's also a 3way like the BJL with a conventional bass driver, a super tweeter, and a compression mid. I have not listened to the JBL personally, but I've heard a lot of good things about it online.
JBL 4429 Dimensions (H x W x D) 400mm x 635mm x 300mm (15-3/4” x 25” x 12”). Crossover frequencies are the classic movie theater "clean speech" range 800Hz, 7kHz. A 800Hz crossover supports using a 12" ported WOOFER with 90db sensitivity, and not a 12" MIDRANGE like the Faital 12PR300 with 95db sensitivity required with a 1300Hz EconoWave crossover. A cabinet width of 25", like the JBL 4429, must take advantage of the wide bandwidth directivity control from of a 24" wide horn/waveguide like the SEOS24, with a 1.4" compression driver.
A real 12" WOOFER is limited to about 800Hz and has modest 90db efficiency. A good 800Hz midrange horn must be much wider than the 13" Faital LTH142 horn.
A real 12" WOOFER is limited to about 800Hz and has modest 90db efficiency. A good 800Hz midrange horn must be much wider than the 13" Faital LTH142 horn.
If you decide to use the Faital HF146 1.4" compression compression driver in the Faital LTH142 horn with ~800Hz crossover, consider using the 15" Faital 15PR400 woofer in a ported 3.5cuft volume with a pair of ports tuned to -F3=40Hz (two 4" diameter ports, each 9.2" long).
The cabinet would be about 18" wide, and about 43" high with the center of the LRH142 near seated ear level.
I have not used super tweeters enough to make a useful recommendation.
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If you decide to use a 1" compression driver in a modest cost 3-way, consider a klone of the BMF-1 from Tweek Geeks. Bi-Amping the woofers produces deeper bass and simplifies the crossover. H46" W18" D17" ~ 5.5 cuft cabinet
$13 B-52 PHRN-1014 1" Horn 10" x 14" Bolt-On waveguide
Model: PHRN-1014|Part # 299-2303
$63 Peerless 1.75" DFM-2544R00-08 compression driver
$140 Eminence Delta Pro12A Midrange:
TWO $156 Dayton RSS315HF-4 12" woofer (1 amp per driver, or two in series = 6.2 ohms)
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$530 for drivers
34 Best Tweek Geek'''s BMF Speaker in the making images | Loudspeaker, Flooring, Geek stuff
The cabinet would be about 18" wide, and about 43" high with the center of the LRH142 near seated ear level.
I have not used super tweeters enough to make a useful recommendation.
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If you decide to use a 1" compression driver in a modest cost 3-way, consider a klone of the BMF-1 from Tweek Geeks. Bi-Amping the woofers produces deeper bass and simplifies the crossover. H46" W18" D17" ~ 5.5 cuft cabinet
$13 B-52 PHRN-1014 1" Horn 10" x 14" Bolt-On waveguide
Model: PHRN-1014|Part # 299-2303
$63 Peerless 1.75" DFM-2544R00-08 compression driver
$140 Eminence Delta Pro12A Midrange:
TWO $156 Dayton RSS315HF-4 12" woofer (1 amp per driver, or two in series = 6.2 ohms)
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$530 for drivers
34 Best Tweek Geek'''s BMF Speaker in the making images | Loudspeaker, Flooring, Geek stuff
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If this option is chosen, is it accurate to say that the RSS315HF-4 will need its own amp so to match the efficiency of the Peerless compression driver and the Eminence Delta?
It seems like the FaitalPro 12PR320 is a better alternative to the 12PR300. It has slightly lower Fs at 42Hz vs. the 12PR300 50Hz. Everything else seems to be the same. The price also pretty much the same.
FaitalPRO | LF Loudspeakers | 12PR320
FaitalPRO | LF Loudspeakers | 12PR320
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If your goal is to build a speaker which will perform well with one 15W 300B single-ended triode amp, consider:
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The discussed Faital HF146 1.4" compression compression driver in the Faital LTH142 horn with ~800Hz crossover, to the 15" Faital 15PR400 woofer in a ported 3.5cuft volume. The cabinet would be about 18" wide, and about 43" high. A super tweeter with similar polar response is often added.
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ALSO: Consider a large 18" woofer in a big box like the early JBL monitors
$13 B-52 PHRN-1014 1" Horn 10" x 14" Bolt-On waveguide
Model: PHRN-1014|Part # 299-2303
$63 Peerless 1.75" DFM-2544R00-08 compression driver
$140 Eminence Delta Pro12A Midrange:
$230 Peavy LoRider18 18" woofer
A set of good sounding drivers can be found for ~ $450.
2 ========
Bass equalization requirements for baffle step compensation and room equalization have made bi-amping with a Class-D amp popular, even with a tube amp for the tweet + mid. The RSS315HF-4 should have a high power separate amplifier for deep < 30Hz bass.
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You are correct, the Faital 12PR320 is now one of the most popular midbass.
The Faital 12" midrange 12FH520 is often used in a Qtc=0.6 sealed and low resonance tapered volume for even tighter transients.
If your goal is to build a speaker which will perform well with one 15W 300B single-ended triode amp, consider:
--
The discussed Faital HF146 1.4" compression compression driver in the Faital LTH142 horn with ~800Hz crossover, to the 15" Faital 15PR400 woofer in a ported 3.5cuft volume. The cabinet would be about 18" wide, and about 43" high. A super tweeter with similar polar response is often added.
--
ALSO: Consider a large 18" woofer in a big box like the early JBL monitors
$13 B-52 PHRN-1014 1" Horn 10" x 14" Bolt-On waveguide
Model: PHRN-1014|Part # 299-2303
$63 Peerless 1.75" DFM-2544R00-08 compression driver
$140 Eminence Delta Pro12A Midrange:
$230 Peavy LoRider18 18" woofer
A set of good sounding drivers can be found for ~ $450.
2 ========
Bass equalization requirements for baffle step compensation and room equalization have made bi-amping with a Class-D amp popular, even with a tube amp for the tweet + mid. The RSS315HF-4 should have a high power separate amplifier for deep < 30Hz bass.
3 ======
You are correct, the Faital 12PR320 is now one of the most popular midbass.
The Faital 12" midrange 12FH520 is often used in a Qtc=0.6 sealed and low resonance tapered volume for even tighter transients.
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Hello Friend! I would like a speaker that can drop more than 30Hz! It is possible?
What better JBL clone to suit me?
Is there a way to clone the JBL 4348?