I just listened to some KEF LS-50 for the second time. These are just plain awful. Female vocals in particular sound like the singer is in a box or a closet. How did these speakers get such a great review?
But I am interested in coaxial speakers as a concept as I got into this hobby through interest in full range drivers. Ultimately full range just doesn't do it for me. I really need tweeters. But perhaps coaxial can give me that point source coherence. A swiss speaker builder uses these Seas drivers in some very tiny boxes and charges $3500 US for them. These drivers are $165 US and Seas provides very detailed application notes for box size and crossover components. Seas Prestige L12RE/XFC (H1602) 5" Alum/Fabric Coaxial
Trenner & Friedl Sun loudspeaker | Stereophile.com
But I am interested in coaxial speakers as a concept as I got into this hobby through interest in full range drivers. Ultimately full range just doesn't do it for me. I really need tweeters. But perhaps coaxial can give me that point source coherence. A swiss speaker builder uses these Seas drivers in some very tiny boxes and charges $3500 US for them. These drivers are $165 US and Seas provides very detailed application notes for box size and crossover components. Seas Prestige L12RE/XFC (H1602) 5" Alum/Fabric Coaxial
Trenner & Friedl Sun loudspeaker | Stereophile.com
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http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/245012-portable-speaker-seas-l12re-xfc-print.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/273204-seas-l12re-xfc-transmission-line-print.html
Some previous mentions of this driver that went nowhere.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/273204-seas-l12re-xfc-transmission-line-print.html
Some previous mentions of this driver that went nowhere.
Gringo,
There are also some pro and semi-pro coaxials that seem very promising besides the Seas line:
US Speaker - Coaxial Speakers - Coaxial speakers by Eminence Speaker, Beyma, Ciare, 18 Sound and Radian. Coaxial speakers here at US Speaker
and there's an Altec reproduction from Great Plains:
Great Plains Audio 604-8H III Rev. 2 Duplex - Great Plains Audio
All of them are going to end up with larger speakers than I can live with though, so while I think they may be really interesting, I'll likely never build a pair.
Best,
E
There are also some pro and semi-pro coaxials that seem very promising besides the Seas line:
US Speaker - Coaxial Speakers - Coaxial speakers by Eminence Speaker, Beyma, Ciare, 18 Sound and Radian. Coaxial speakers here at US Speaker
and there's an Altec reproduction from Great Plains:
Great Plains Audio 604-8H III Rev. 2 Duplex - Great Plains Audio
All of them are going to end up with larger speakers than I can live with though, so while I think they may be really interesting, I'll likely never build a pair.
Best,
E
I saw that review and it seemed exceptionally silly, even for Stereophile. The speaker manufacturers are basically charging a 1000% markup for a plywood box and a crossover.
Insane.
Also, I'm listening to Kef speakers as I type this and Kef has basically been a staple in my home for 10-15 years. I think the LS50s sound fantastic. Heck, I'd probably buy a pair if I didn't like Synergy Horns so much.
IMHO, the Synergies are an excellent choice if you like to listen loud. If you don't, it's hard to go wrong with an LS50.
Note that the achilles hell of coax designs is the high frequencies. Take a look at the treble response of a Danley SH50 or the BMS coaxial and you'll see what I mean. It's really difficult to put a tweeter close to a series of diffractive surfaces without creating diffraction. Kef has worked mightily to reduce it. (Take a look at the phase plug on the LS50 to see what I mean.)
Insane.
Also, I'm listening to Kef speakers as I type this and Kef has basically been a staple in my home for 10-15 years. I think the LS50s sound fantastic. Heck, I'd probably buy a pair if I didn't like Synergy Horns so much.
IMHO, the Synergies are an excellent choice if you like to listen loud. If you don't, it's hard to go wrong with an LS50.
Note that the achilles hell of coax designs is the high frequencies. Take a look at the treble response of a Danley SH50 or the BMS coaxial and you'll see what I mean. It's really difficult to put a tweeter close to a series of diffractive surfaces without creating diffraction. Kef has worked mightily to reduce it. (Take a look at the phase plug on the LS50 to see what I mean.)
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Yeah, I'm a big fan of coaxes, especially the big Altec/GPA 604 series, Tannoys, even some of the relatively inexpensive mobile audio units as they work well in TLs, so these KEF's tweaked my curiosity when they debuted, but years later and still no place in the metro Atlanta area to audition them except by appointment, which doesn't appeal to me.
GM
GM
The dealer here, Visions, a generally mass market big box store, seems to have the monopoly on selling KEF in Canada. I listened at two locations with mid fi equipment driving them. CDs from my collection for the first audition and Spotify from the salesman's phone the second time. In both situations they seemed dull and boxy and lacked the sparkle of even my worst DIY attempts.
I will look at the drivers you have listed. Thanks.
I suppose if I was really curious how they would sound in my house I could buy them and return them as they have a good policy for that but I'm not that kind of guy.
I will look at the drivers you have listed. Thanks.
I suppose if I was really curious how they would sound in my house I could buy them and return them as they have a good policy for that but I'm not that kind of guy.
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By putting them on stands and moving them away from the walls, the LS50s were able to throw a big spacious image. I heard them demo'd by Kef at CES, I got the impression they'd done the demo about a million times at various shows, they were 'dialed in.'
I use (probably inferior) Asian copies of the 604 - but I like them a lot 🙂
Not even something like this?
Beyma Coaxial Speakers - Beyma 5CX200Fe 5" coaxial speakers - Beyma 5CX200Fe 300 watt 5" coaxial speakers for all 2-way applications. Beyma 5CX200Fe 5" coxial speaker and other Beyma coaxial speakers here.
You could make a 2.1 system with these, where the satellites would be pretty svelte (less than ten litres).
My reaction wasn't that strong the couple times I've heard them at shows but definitely a head scratcher. I think part of the challenge are the demands made of that little woofer. A German test indicated surprising distortion at the low end under drive. I went with the Technics SB-C700 coax instead on a scorching package deal.
The smaller Seas coaxes aren't probably that good for main speakers. The larger 6,5" ones (T18REX, IIRC) are quite capable, if you replace the silk dome with a metallic one. There's a drop in replacement part from Seas for that. Didn't quite much care for that textile dome.
I've gone through a number of coaxes from Seas, Eminence, BMS, 18Sound and B&C. Some of the larger ones are quite good, if you like simple but very capable 2-way speakers. For now I've settled with B&C 15-inch coaxial drivers in my living room, and a pair of 18Sound 8-inchers as my desktop loudspeakers. Both very enjoyable.
And yes, you do get that point source coherence from a coax. But driver selection is even more crucial to get right than with most more conventional approaches. The Seas 6,5" unit is quite good, and established, but choosing from professional (PA) coaxials is harder. Many of them aren't even designed to reproduce anything below 100Hz. Some just have too horrible dips and peaks in their response.
I've gone through a number of coaxes from Seas, Eminence, BMS, 18Sound and B&C. Some of the larger ones are quite good, if you like simple but very capable 2-way speakers. For now I've settled with B&C 15-inch coaxial drivers in my living room, and a pair of 18Sound 8-inchers as my desktop loudspeakers. Both very enjoyable.
And yes, you do get that point source coherence from a coax. But driver selection is even more crucial to get right than with most more conventional approaches. The Seas 6,5" unit is quite good, and established, but choosing from professional (PA) coaxials is harder. Many of them aren't even designed to reproduce anything below 100Hz. Some just have too horrible dips and peaks in their response.
I'm reluctant to blow up my own spot, but the best darn coaxial you can buy for under $50 is right here:
Speaker Stuff
This one's flown under the radar for a few years now, but it's a beauty. Made in Denmark, engineered in Denmark, you're getting near-ScanSpeak levels of quality $15. These should really be priced around $125ish.
He doesn't have a lot left. Get 'em while you can.
Speaker Stuff
This one's flown under the radar for a few years now, but it's a beauty. Made in Denmark, engineered in Denmark, you're getting near-ScanSpeak levels of quality $15. These should really be priced around $125ish.
He doesn't have a lot left. Get 'em while you can.
Gringo,
I have yet to comment in this thread.
I will say that if the XO point is at or below ¼ wavelength of the driver centre-to-centre drivers are essentially coincident, ie a coax with out the issues of coax.
dave
Oh. And I do have to add a couple of stinky opinions to my comment above.
First of all, when run 2-way, ie. "full range", coaxials tend to be the better the larger they are. The less the bass-midrange has to move, the less it buggers your tweeters sound.
Secondly, I'm quite baffled by the price of those Trenner & Friedl speakers. There's no reason for them to be that expensive, maybe apart from really, really inefficient manufacturing. Which would mean you're paying someone else for being lazy as --it.
There used to be a Finnish loudspeaker model from a manufacturer called Gradient, that relied on a custom made Seas coaxial with an aramid or glass fibre cone (can't really remember the material, but it was nice and yellow and stiff), called Prelude. They were for the price a very good pair of loudspeakers, with a sound much more natural than say a pair of B&W's 705's. Back when I bought a pair, they were like 850€, and those B&W's were 1300€. And that price was for truly custom drivers and Finnish manufacturing, which isn't exactly cheap.
So, 3500€ for a pair of cigarette pack sized boxes with off-the-shelf drivers does sound slightly unreasonable to put it mildly. Even if the crossovers are built by bl---y Mundorf. You can coat a turd with money, yet it remains as it was. A shiny turd is still a turd.
First of all, when run 2-way, ie. "full range", coaxials tend to be the better the larger they are. The less the bass-midrange has to move, the less it buggers your tweeters sound.
Secondly, I'm quite baffled by the price of those Trenner & Friedl speakers. There's no reason for them to be that expensive, maybe apart from really, really inefficient manufacturing. Which would mean you're paying someone else for being lazy as --it.
There used to be a Finnish loudspeaker model from a manufacturer called Gradient, that relied on a custom made Seas coaxial with an aramid or glass fibre cone (can't really remember the material, but it was nice and yellow and stiff), called Prelude. They were for the price a very good pair of loudspeakers, with a sound much more natural than say a pair of B&W's 705's. Back when I bought a pair, they were like 850€, and those B&W's were 1300€. And that price was for truly custom drivers and Finnish manufacturing, which isn't exactly cheap.
So, 3500€ for a pair of cigarette pack sized boxes with off-the-shelf drivers does sound slightly unreasonable to put it mildly. Even if the crossovers are built by bl---y Mundorf. You can coat a turd with money, yet it remains as it was. A shiny turd is still a turd.
I wholeheartily agree with Adolf C! I have three SEAS T18s as my HT mains, closed 8 liter boxes. xo from a kit here Aw-7 rakennussarja - Hifitalo
Very nice in a small room even without a sub. With a sub and some eq, super imaging and soundstage in a SMALL room! But T&F and KEF LS50 are obviously not optimally cost-effective implications...
My AW-7 spatial response (120ms IR gating) and with a sub in HT room (500ms)
Very nice in a small room even without a sub. With a sub and some eq, super imaging and soundstage in a SMALL room! But T&F and KEF LS50 are obviously not optimally cost-effective implications...
My AW-7 spatial response (120ms IR gating) and with a sub in HT room (500ms)
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