I recently bought a pair of Klipsch RP600Ms after all of the rave reviews and being the Audiophilliac "Speaker Of The Year 2018". So far, they seem to live up to the Hype.
Danny Ritchie at GR Research did a complete analysis and teardown of a pair of them, and designed complete new crossovers to address the issues he found. He sells his upgrades as a kit for $209 which includes a $50 sheet of No-Rez damping material and a $50 set of "Tube Connectors".
Klipsch RP-600M Upgrade
While His new crossovers measure better, the No-Rez and Particularly the Tube Connectors seem, to me, to be of slightly dubious value.
My question is, would upgrading the existing crossovers with higher quality Caps and resistors offer any actual improvement in sound quality?
Jantzen Audio Superes 9.1 Ohm resistors are $3 and Dayton Audio Precision 4.0uF 1% caps are $4
Any actual gains to be had, or are these just "changes"?
Pretty amazing to me how good these sound considering the level of components used in their build. Iron core inductor, cement resistor, etc...
Please attach images using the Advanced editor. Attached images removed.
Thank you
We in Michigan are sitting around our homes based on a State Wide Forced Shutdown for the next 3 weeks due to Covid19 concerns, so just spending a little time thinking about upgrades/changes.
Thanks
Danny Ritchie at GR Research did a complete analysis and teardown of a pair of them, and designed complete new crossovers to address the issues he found. He sells his upgrades as a kit for $209 which includes a $50 sheet of No-Rez damping material and a $50 set of "Tube Connectors".
Klipsch RP-600M Upgrade
While His new crossovers measure better, the No-Rez and Particularly the Tube Connectors seem, to me, to be of slightly dubious value.
My question is, would upgrading the existing crossovers with higher quality Caps and resistors offer any actual improvement in sound quality?
Jantzen Audio Superes 9.1 Ohm resistors are $3 and Dayton Audio Precision 4.0uF 1% caps are $4
Any actual gains to be had, or are these just "changes"?
Pretty amazing to me how good these sound considering the level of components used in their build. Iron core inductor, cement resistor, etc...
Please attach images using the Advanced editor. Attached images removed.
Thank you
We in Michigan are sitting around our homes based on a State Wide Forced Shutdown for the next 3 weeks due to Covid19 concerns, so just spending a little time thinking about upgrades/changes.
Thanks
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I've seen this interesting teardown. The quality of the components and the cabinet construction is starkly revealed, whilst explaining how the manufacturers have been highly effective in working to a specific budget in producing this speaker.
My take from the teardown was that it is worth improving the rigidity and damping of the cabinet, but that the crossover upgrade is over the top with regard to this particular model.
My take from the teardown was that it is worth improving the rigidity and damping of the cabinet, but that the crossover upgrade is over the top with regard to this particular model.
There's a review of these here Klipsch RP-600M Speaker Review | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum, and a discussion about those "upgrades".
If you have a parametric EQ available, I suggest you use that to even out the 5 dB midrange dip (and preceding peak), and perhaps the slightly too much treble as well if you are listening on-axis. Once EQ'd, these are really decent performers.
If EQ is not an option, the XO would have to be modified. Not necessarily with fancy components, just the right ones. This would be an opportunity to tackle the remaining woofer breakup at ~6 kHz as well, which could take some more suppression. Not as sure what to do about the 700 Hz mode leaking out the port.
Coming up with a mod is, I think, better left to those with an ability to take decent measurements both on and off axis. That said, the frequency range of interest to us (maybe 600 Hz to below 10 kHz) should present relatively few major challenges even to amateur efforts.
If EQ is not an option, the XO would have to be modified. Not necessarily with fancy components, just the right ones. This would be an opportunity to tackle the remaining woofer breakup at ~6 kHz as well, which could take some more suppression. Not as sure what to do about the 700 Hz mode leaking out the port.
Coming up with a mod is, I think, better left to those with an ability to take decent measurements both on and off axis. That said, the frequency range of interest to us (maybe 600 Hz to below 10 kHz) should present relatively few major challenges even to amateur efforts.
I see from the audio science review there is a 6db (or so) dip at the crossover point. One thing you could try experimentally is reversing the wires on the tweeter, it could be a phase issue or a group delay issue and often that is very easily corrected.
If you have REW or a similar spectrum analysis package, listen to a half dozen songs you are very familiar with then take sweeps before and after flipping the wires and listen to your playlist again to see if the improvement is audible and/or satisfactory.
If it doesn't satisfy just reconnect the tweeter as before.
However; for the price of these I would not recommend spending $200+ on a crossover update. It would likely make more sense to invest that $200 plus the resale price of the speakers into a better set of speakers.
If you have REW or a similar spectrum analysis package, listen to a half dozen songs you are very familiar with then take sweeps before and after flipping the wires and listen to your playlist again to see if the improvement is audible and/or satisfactory.
If it doesn't satisfy just reconnect the tweeter as before.
However; for the price of these I would not recommend spending $200+ on a crossover update. It would likely make more sense to invest that $200 plus the resale price of the speakers into a better set of speakers.
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I'm not a speaker designer, but have built four pairs of DIY speakers - all others' designs - and done two test builds. I've always used good quality, but not expensive parts.
After much messing around, I find that Superes resistors work fine (about $3 each in Oz) and Mills resistors are too expensive. Dayton Audio film or Jantzen 'cross caps' are fine. I always use film caps in the tweeter circuit rather than electrolytic, but use electrolytic caps as shunt components and where high values are needed, for cost reasons. I use 18 gauge air core inductors in the woofer circuit, unless otherwise specified by the designer, or the value is too high for an affordable air or P-core. 16 and 14 AWG inductors get too expensive here and I don't know whether I could hear the difference. I use good quality binding posts such as Dayton audio and am very happy with them..
So having said all that, I watched the video and think it makes sense, apart from my being labelled a 'flat earther' for not believing the alleged superiority of the $50 tube connectors.
The XO is a key part of any speaker; a good XO can make cheap drivers sound good and a poor XO can make expensive drivers sound crap. I do think it's worth spending $47 on the new crossover, since the OEM parts do seem of mediocre quality and Danny's new crossover seems to have evened out the FR.
As for the cabinet, a couple of side to side braces would be a good start; I haven't used 'no-res' but auto shops sell a self-adhesive sound deadening sheet which is cheaper and might work, though I haven't used it.
Also, it might be hard to replace, say, the stock caps as you would have to prize them off the circuit board and try to attach and solder in the new parts.
So bearing mind the cost of the speakers, I'd suggest giving it a go. If you keep the originals intact you can swap them back; you would have lost $48 but had a bit of fun.
HTH
Geoff
After much messing around, I find that Superes resistors work fine (about $3 each in Oz) and Mills resistors are too expensive. Dayton Audio film or Jantzen 'cross caps' are fine. I always use film caps in the tweeter circuit rather than electrolytic, but use electrolytic caps as shunt components and where high values are needed, for cost reasons. I use 18 gauge air core inductors in the woofer circuit, unless otherwise specified by the designer, or the value is too high for an affordable air or P-core. 16 and 14 AWG inductors get too expensive here and I don't know whether I could hear the difference. I use good quality binding posts such as Dayton audio and am very happy with them..
So having said all that, I watched the video and think it makes sense, apart from my being labelled a 'flat earther' for not believing the alleged superiority of the $50 tube connectors.
The XO is a key part of any speaker; a good XO can make cheap drivers sound good and a poor XO can make expensive drivers sound crap. I do think it's worth spending $47 on the new crossover, since the OEM parts do seem of mediocre quality and Danny's new crossover seems to have evened out the FR.
As for the cabinet, a couple of side to side braces would be a good start; I haven't used 'no-res' but auto shops sell a self-adhesive sound deadening sheet which is cheaper and might work, though I haven't used it.
Also, it might be hard to replace, say, the stock caps as you would have to prize them off the circuit board and try to attach and solder in the new parts.
So bearing mind the cost of the speakers, I'd suggest giving it a go. If you keep the originals intact you can swap them back; you would have lost $48 but had a bit of fun.
HTH
Geoff
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Not being a speaker designer, I didn't look at that but I think Mr Ritchie knows his stuff with speaker design. I don't know how important the vertical polar issue is in relation to the sound of the speaker, but the measured FR of the original speaker doesn't look that good to me.
All of the speakers I've built - again, other peoples' projects - have a relatively flat, or slightly downward sloping measured response and sound good to great.
Geoff
All of the speakers I've built - again, other peoples' projects - have a relatively flat, or slightly downward sloping measured response and sound good to great.
Geoff
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Thank you for your understanding.
It is indeed a complex area and I don't pretend to begin to understand it, which is why I build proved designs. Some things go right over my head and I'm very happy to be proved wrong on any opinion.
GR Research has designed and sold many successful speakers; I've enjoyed watching the videos and his speakers get good reviews. If the shipping to Oz wasn't so steep I'd like to build one of his designs.
Having done a few projects now, I've always followed the designer's recommendations on component type and quality: they know what they're doing. None of the designs I've built have electrolytic caps in series with the tweeter, for example.
I have an old pair of Oz-made Interdyn Pee Wee monitor speakers and was surprised that the XO was just an electrolytic cap and a really cheap resistor, both in the tweeter circuit. I replaced those parts with new, good quality Cross Caps and Superes resistors of the same value, and there really was a marked improvement in the sound, for less than $10.
Geoff
GR Research has designed and sold many successful speakers; I've enjoyed watching the videos and his speakers get good reviews. If the shipping to Oz wasn't so steep I'd like to build one of his designs.
Having done a few projects now, I've always followed the designer's recommendations on component type and quality: they know what they're doing. None of the designs I've built have electrolytic caps in series with the tweeter, for example.
I have an old pair of Oz-made Interdyn Pee Wee monitor speakers and was surprised that the XO was just an electrolytic cap and a really cheap resistor, both in the tweeter circuit. I replaced those parts with new, good quality Cross Caps and Superes resistors of the same value, and there really was a marked improvement in the sound, for less than $10.
Geoff
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Geoff,
I'm believer in the law of diminishing returns. Those binding posts might or might not change the sound, but for sure my unsophisticated ears won't able to pickup the different. I'll take your advice and spend the extra buck to upgrade the caps and resistors, and probably wind my own coils to save a few pennies.
Cheers
I'm believer in the law of diminishing returns. Those binding posts might or might not change the sound, but for sure my unsophisticated ears won't able to pickup the different. I'll take your advice and spend the extra buck to upgrade the caps and resistors, and probably wind my own coils to save a few pennies.
Cheers
