Hi All
I'm about to embark on the construction of 2 subwoofers to create a 2.1 Music system.
The primary objective is deep tight bass for critical listening. A friend of mine has Wilson X2's and the bass there is other worldly, now I know that I will be hard pressed to recreate that, but ... gonna try on a limited budget.
So the question is, from you home audio critical listeners who have experimented with Sub Woofers ...
Anybody compared the Scan Speak and Seas drivers with the Dayton stuff ?
Scan speak and Seas have some nice offeringss, available from Madisound, in the 250=270 $ range, and Parts Express has the Dayton drivers at approximately 100 less per driver.
The specifications are comparable, but I don't see much in these forums comparing the tonal characteristics of each.
any comments or suggestions from personal experience ?
Regards
I'm about to embark on the construction of 2 subwoofers to create a 2.1 Music system.
The primary objective is deep tight bass for critical listening. A friend of mine has Wilson X2's and the bass there is other worldly, now I know that I will be hard pressed to recreate that, but ... gonna try on a limited budget.
So the question is, from you home audio critical listeners who have experimented with Sub Woofers ...
Anybody compared the Scan Speak and Seas drivers with the Dayton stuff ?
Scan speak and Seas have some nice offeringss, available from Madisound, in the 250=270 $ range, and Parts Express has the Dayton drivers at approximately 100 less per driver.
The specifications are comparable, but I don't see much in these forums comparing the tonal characteristics of each.
any comments or suggestions from personal experience ?
Regards
Technically that would be a 2.2 Music system. 😛
For subwoofers the box design has much more to do with the sound than the drivers. I've used the Dayton subs a lot in the last few years, they do what the reviews say they do, move air, good quality, excellent service. I'd stick with the HF line btw. The 12" seems to be the sweet spot in that range. Although the 15"HF is really good in a sealed box.
I am not affiliated with them in any way, i just like them.
For subwoofers the box design has much more to do with the sound than the drivers. I've used the Dayton subs a lot in the last few years, they do what the reviews say they do, move air, good quality, excellent service. I'd stick with the HF line btw. The 12" seems to be the sweet spot in that range. Although the 15"HF is really good in a sealed box.
I am not affiliated with them in any way, i just like them.
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Yes, 2.2 if you must.
Your comment about the box seems like a reasonable statement, as I'm leaning towards the less expensive drivers, and more time on deciding on the box size and configuration.
I have considered the 15" in a sealed box as well, but a little concerned about the box size, I'll have to that model it in WinISD and see.
I like the Idea of Large and Sealed.
I'm planning on using a old NAD 218 to drive them.
Your comment about the box seems like a reasonable statement, as I'm leaning towards the less expensive drivers, and more time on deciding on the box size and configuration.
I have considered the 15" in a sealed box as well, but a little concerned about the box size, I'll have to that model it in WinISD and see.
I like the Idea of Large and Sealed.
I'm planning on using a old NAD 218 to drive them.
Thanks Michael
I have read through your thread.
I search through the forum but somehow missed your "Musical Subwoofer" thread.
I guess I wasn't searching for what I was actually looking for 🙂
Looking at the Vifa NE265W on Madisound it does look very good. Interesting design and good looking specifications for a 10"
I have read through your thread.
I search through the forum but somehow missed your "Musical Subwoofer" thread.
I guess I wasn't searching for what I was actually looking for 🙂
Looking at the Vifa NE265W on Madisound it does look very good. Interesting design and good looking specifications for a 10"
Vifa has a 12" too, NE315W-08. Parts Express have them (to NE315W). I haven't tried them. Too costly for me. I bought the 10" when PE had them on offer. Can't remember the exact amount but I think it was about $160 each. Paying for a pair was painful enough.
What I really like about these new VIFA subs is their control. I'm able to get good detail in the the mid-bass which I find is crucial to music. Most of the bass information resides in 70-100Hz. Very few woofers are outstanding in this region.
In my quest to find affordable subwoofers, I discovered JBL car subs are surprisingly good. I have a pair of JBL 10", the ones with double magnets and they cost about $60 each.
What I really like about these new VIFA subs is their control. I'm able to get good detail in the the mid-bass which I find is crucial to music. Most of the bass information resides in 70-100Hz. Very few woofers are outstanding in this region.
In my quest to find affordable subwoofers, I discovered JBL car subs are surprisingly good. I have a pair of JBL 10", the ones with double magnets and they cost about $60 each.
I also looked at the15" dayton rss390hf, models very well in very large sealed cabs. qtc 0,7 160L/5,7cf3 , 0,6 280L/10cf3. read some really good reviews about that woofer.
Have never heard a dayton woofer, just found out the europe audio actually sells dayton.
in your cant stomach the large cabs a peerless xxls 12 does a good job in a much smaller sealed cab 1-1,25cf3. it can sound very well, but it needs eq in low extension.
best regards
panduro
Have never heard a dayton woofer, just found out the europe audio actually sells dayton.
in your cant stomach the large cabs a peerless xxls 12 does a good job in a much smaller sealed cab 1-1,25cf3. it can sound very well, but it needs eq in low extension.
best regards
panduro
I've used the 15 inch, 500 watt Dayton RSS390HF-4 15″ Reference driver in a sealed sub, and I can say it's very nice indeed.
You can see my sub in the System Pictures gallery for subs.
You can see my sub in the System Pictures gallery for subs.
Hi Paul and Panduro
I have read all that I can over the past few months, as I plan this project, so reading more reviews is not required. Most personal reviews state stuff like "I Love Them" and such. Not very articulate info to base a purchasing decision on.
I have actually seen Paul Wanamaker's sub on a different site when doing this project research, Very impressive, heavy, and more complex to build. But, the question remains, would a more expensive woofer sound appreciably better ...
So what I'm asking is ... Anybody directly compared different drivers ?
Michael Chua's response, though admitting he hadn't directly compare against other drivers, did state that the reason he chose the Vifa was it's ability in the 70-100 hz range. And the fact that it was on sale for a price compareable to the less expensive choices. This seems some constructive advise suggesting the Vifa range, and looking at the 12" Vifa, I'm thinking that this may the way to go.
But also noting Michael's comment, that he got his on sale, the question remains, can I justify, sonically on a limited budget, spending 100$/driver more. If I was to purchase them on sale the question would be mute.
But ......
My original question was as follows
So perhaps to re-ask, with the simplification/clairification
Anybody directly compared more expensive Subwoofer drivers ie: Seas, Scan Speak, Vifa to the less expensive ie: Dayton and Peerless and, have you concluded that there are appreciable improvements to justify the additional expense of the more expensive drivers.
Regards
I have read all that I can over the past few months, as I plan this project, so reading more reviews is not required. Most personal reviews state stuff like "I Love Them" and such. Not very articulate info to base a purchasing decision on.
I have actually seen Paul Wanamaker's sub on a different site when doing this project research, Very impressive, heavy, and more complex to build. But, the question remains, would a more expensive woofer sound appreciably better ...
So what I'm asking is ... Anybody directly compared different drivers ?
Michael Chua's response, though admitting he hadn't directly compare against other drivers, did state that the reason he chose the Vifa was it's ability in the 70-100 hz range. And the fact that it was on sale for a price compareable to the less expensive choices. This seems some constructive advise suggesting the Vifa range, and looking at the 12" Vifa, I'm thinking that this may the way to go.
But also noting Michael's comment, that he got his on sale, the question remains, can I justify, sonically on a limited budget, spending 100$/driver more. If I was to purchase them on sale the question would be mute.
But ......
My original question was as follows
So perhaps to re-ask, with the simplification/clairification
Anybody directly compared more expensive Subwoofer drivers ie: Seas, Scan Speak, Vifa to the less expensive ie: Dayton and Peerless and, have you concluded that there are appreciable improvements to justify the additional expense of the more expensive drivers.
Regards
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High quality, low distortion bass is always about the ability to move the required amount of air whilst keeping the motor linear. It doesn't matter how good a woofer you've got, if it's pushed too hard it's going to sound bad.
No doubt the scan speak probably has the edge when it comes to raw distortion performance when used within it's capabilities, but the 15" Dayton will be far more capable when it comes to producing lots of low bass.
Besides this the other important factor is the room and the subs interaction with it. Often you will get better results using multiple smaller subs, then using one more capable one. If your priority is music then this would be the way to go in my opinion.
As to the vifa unit, this isn't a proper sub, it's more of a woofer.
No doubt the scan speak probably has the edge when it comes to raw distortion performance when used within it's capabilities, but the 15" Dayton will be far more capable when it comes to producing lots of low bass.
Besides this the other important factor is the room and the subs interaction with it. Often you will get better results using multiple smaller subs, then using one more capable one. If your priority is music then this would be the way to go in my opinion.
As to the vifa unit, this isn't a proper sub, it's more of a woofer.
Well I agree that 2 are better than one 🙂 And the plan is to be using them in a L-R configuration, as stated earlier in the tread. So yes, 2 smaller sub's, less distortion, more accurate, is the goal.
But what makes you state that the Vifa is not "a proper sub" ?
Vifa NE315W-08 12" Subwoofer Speaker 264-1142.
Also, I completely agree about room dynamics, but the question is about A-B comparisons of particular drivers in regards to Musicality.
If you state that the Vifa isn't a proper Sub, if we were to suppose that the Vifa was woofer A, how would you characterize woofer B, if B was "a proper sub" as it relates to the subject of this thread ?
But what makes you state that the Vifa is not "a proper sub" ?
Vifa NE315W-08 12" Subwoofer Speaker 264-1142.
Also, I completely agree about room dynamics, but the question is about A-B comparisons of particular drivers in regards to Musicality.
If you state that the Vifa isn't a proper Sub, if we were to suppose that the Vifa was woofer A, how would you characterize woofer B, if B was "a proper sub" as it relates to the subject of this thread ?
The vifa NE line is known to have issues where the suspension limits the excursion capabilities even before the motors xmax is reached.
Typically a true sub will have at least 12mm of motor based xmax with a surround large enough to support excursions well beyond this in case of any overload scenarios, such as HT explosions. The vifa doesn't fall into this category so it isn't a true sub as definitions tend to go.
As to comparisons of each driver, the reason why not a lot has been said here I think is because the room + your SPL demands will largely dominate over any small gains that might be had from driver to driver.
The point here is that the Peerless XLS/XXLS, Dayton line and the scanspeak/seas subs are all of high quality. To decide which one is best suited for you comes down to price and your specific SPL requirements and box limitations to your specific application.
I use the 10" original XLS driver in a multiple sub setup and it sounds fantastic with music and HT. I wouldn't have any issue with using any of the sub drivers from dayton, peerless, scanspeak or SEAS, if they fitted my requirements then I'd go with them.
Which scanspeak subs are we talking about though? Scanspeak make their own sub drivers that cost a fortune and are very insensitive, but they also make a line of subs that are basically a remake of the XLS/XXLS line. I do not think it is worth using the 23W/4557T00 etc from scanspeak.
Typically a true sub will have at least 12mm of motor based xmax with a surround large enough to support excursions well beyond this in case of any overload scenarios, such as HT explosions. The vifa doesn't fall into this category so it isn't a true sub as definitions tend to go.
As to comparisons of each driver, the reason why not a lot has been said here I think is because the room + your SPL demands will largely dominate over any small gains that might be had from driver to driver.
The point here is that the Peerless XLS/XXLS, Dayton line and the scanspeak/seas subs are all of high quality. To decide which one is best suited for you comes down to price and your specific SPL requirements and box limitations to your specific application.
I use the 10" original XLS driver in a multiple sub setup and it sounds fantastic with music and HT. I wouldn't have any issue with using any of the sub drivers from dayton, peerless, scanspeak or SEAS, if they fitted my requirements then I'd go with them.
Which scanspeak subs are we talking about though? Scanspeak make their own sub drivers that cost a fortune and are very insensitive, but they also make a line of subs that are basically a remake of the XLS/XXLS line. I do not think it is worth using the 23W/4557T00 etc from scanspeak.
No, not the 9" but The larger 10" or 12"
ScanSpeak Discovery 26W/4558T 10" Subwoofer: Madisound Speaker Store
ScanSpeak Discovery 30W/4558T 12" Subwoofer: Madisound Speaker Store
ScanSpeak Discovery 26W/4558T 10" Subwoofer: Madisound Speaker Store
ScanSpeak Discovery 30W/4558T 12" Subwoofer: Madisound Speaker Store
Those are really just remakes of the Peerless XLS/XXLS range and scan added them to their catalogue when they split from Tymphany. They will be made in Denmark by Scan and therefore have scan's quality control, other then that, unless the specs do something special for you, I'd say that the peerless/china made drivers would be absolutely fine.
As ~$250 10" drivers go, on paper I quite like the L26ROY.
The thing with this though is that the RSS265HF-4 from Dayton costs about half of that for the L26ROY and 4 RS265s will easily beat two L26ROYs. You could build two nice push/pull pressure opposed subs with 4 RS265s and that would be >2 L26ROYs imo.
If you've got the space for large boxes then you've got lots of options.
As ~$250 10" drivers go, on paper I quite like the L26ROY.
The thing with this though is that the RSS265HF-4 from Dayton costs about half of that for the L26ROY and 4 RS265s will easily beat two L26ROYs. You could build two nice push/pull pressure opposed subs with 4 RS265s and that would be >2 L26ROYs imo.
If you've got the space for large boxes then you've got lots of options.
no i meant that the peerless xxls 12 would do well in a sealed 1,25cf3 enclosure. with eq it can get down to low thirties before rolloff. that should suffice for music.
and no, i dont have direct comparrison to the different woofers, no all else being the equal.
have listened to some scanspeak and peerless subwoofer drivers, and the scanspeaks wins the most, but it at a higher prize and i my oppinion the xtra money is better spendt on the enclosure.
even the cheap peerless sls series makes a good music sub althought it will roll of earlyer than the xxls do to smaller xmax.
best regards
panduro
and no, i dont have direct comparrison to the different woofers, no all else being the equal.
have listened to some scanspeak and peerless subwoofer drivers, and the scanspeaks wins the most, but it at a higher prize and i my oppinion the xtra money is better spendt on the enclosure.
even the cheap peerless sls series makes a good music sub althought it will roll of earlyer than the xxls do to smaller xmax.
best regards
panduro
5Th Element,
Yes, I have room for large boxes.
I'll look at some simulation models tonight for the Dayton 10" and 12" and see. As I have the room might be worth while getting the 12".
But any advantage to the 4ohm over the 8ohm?
I will be driving this pair of subs with a NAD THX218 amp.
SPECIFICATIONS - NAD 218 THX
Unbridged (Stereo) Mode 120V 230V
CONTINUOUS OUTPUT POWER 225W (23.5 dBW) 200W (23 dBW)
(Minimum power per channel, 20Hz-20kHz, both channels driven, with no more than rated distortion)
Rated distortion (THD 20Hz-20kHz) 0.03%
Clipping power (max cont power/channel) 240W (23.8 dBW) 210W (23.2 dbW)
IHF dynamic headroom at 8ohms 1 dB
IHF dynamic power 8 Ohms 280W (24.5 dBW) 250W (24 dBW)
(max short term power/channel) 4 ohms 470W (26.7 dBW) 430W (26.3 dBW)
2 ohms 700W (28.4 dBW) 660W (28.2 dBW)
Slew rate >100V/μs
Damping factor (ref. 8ohms, 50Hz) >200
Input impedance 47k /700pF
Input sensitivity (for rated power into 8ohms) 1.4V
Voltage gain x 28.3 (29 dB)
Frequency response 20Hz-20kHz + 0.3 dB
-3dB at 2.5Hz / 80kHz
Signal/Noise ratio ref. 1 W 96 dB
ref. rated power 120 dB
THD + SMPTE I.M. + IHF I.M. <0.03%
Yes, I have room for large boxes.
I'll look at some simulation models tonight for the Dayton 10" and 12" and see. As I have the room might be worth while getting the 12".
But any advantage to the 4ohm over the 8ohm?
I will be driving this pair of subs with a NAD THX218 amp.
SPECIFICATIONS - NAD 218 THX
Unbridged (Stereo) Mode 120V 230V
CONTINUOUS OUTPUT POWER 225W (23.5 dBW) 200W (23 dBW)
(Minimum power per channel, 20Hz-20kHz, both channels driven, with no more than rated distortion)
Rated distortion (THD 20Hz-20kHz) 0.03%
Clipping power (max cont power/channel) 240W (23.8 dBW) 210W (23.2 dbW)
IHF dynamic headroom at 8ohms 1 dB
IHF dynamic power 8 Ohms 280W (24.5 dBW) 250W (24 dBW)
(max short term power/channel) 4 ohms 470W (26.7 dBW) 430W (26.3 dBW)
2 ohms 700W (28.4 dBW) 660W (28.2 dBW)
Slew rate >100V/μs
Damping factor (ref. 8ohms, 50Hz) >200
Input impedance 47k /700pF
Input sensitivity (for rated power into 8ohms) 1.4V
Voltage gain x 28.3 (29 dB)
Frequency response 20Hz-20kHz + 0.3 dB
-3dB at 2.5Hz / 80kHz
Signal/Noise ratio ref. 1 W 96 dB
ref. rated power 120 dB
THD + SMPTE I.M. + IHF I.M. <0.03%
4 vs 8 ohm is basically down to what your amplifier can do. Dropping the impedance in half means, that for a given amplifier output voltage, that twice the amount of current will be drawn and therefore twice the amount of power will be dissipated by the coil.
Put simply, lets say you've got two identical drivers, one is 4 ohm and one is 8 ohm, for a given amplifier output voltage the 4 ohm driver will play 3dB louder then the 8 ohm one. It's all about matching the driver to the amplifier. If your amplifier is capable of driving a 4 ohm load (ie it can provide the additional current), then in sub woofer territory it is generally worth going for the 4ohm load.
The NAD appears to be capable into 4 ohm loads, so a 4 ohm overall impedance would seem like a good choice.
If you wanted to use two drivers in parallel then you'd obviously use two 8 ohm drivers.
The only case where it would make more sense to use the 8 ohm driver is if you've got an amplifier that can output really high voltages, such as providing 500 watts into 8 ohms or something. Quite clearly those 500 watts would be more then enough to power the subs with and therefore reach their thermal limits and probably their mechanical limits too. The amplifier might be more then capable of driving a 4 ohm load too, say giving 850 watts, but here it'd be wasted as it's not needed to reach the subs inherent limitations. Amplifiers also tend to be more linear when driving an 8 ohm load.
Put simply, lets say you've got two identical drivers, one is 4 ohm and one is 8 ohm, for a given amplifier output voltage the 4 ohm driver will play 3dB louder then the 8 ohm one. It's all about matching the driver to the amplifier. If your amplifier is capable of driving a 4 ohm load (ie it can provide the additional current), then in sub woofer territory it is generally worth going for the 4ohm load.
The NAD appears to be capable into 4 ohm loads, so a 4 ohm overall impedance would seem like a good choice.
If you wanted to use two drivers in parallel then you'd obviously use two 8 ohm drivers.
The only case where it would make more sense to use the 8 ohm driver is if you've got an amplifier that can output really high voltages, such as providing 500 watts into 8 ohms or something. Quite clearly those 500 watts would be more then enough to power the subs with and therefore reach their thermal limits and probably their mechanical limits too. The amplifier might be more then capable of driving a 4 ohm load too, say giving 850 watts, but here it'd be wasted as it's not needed to reach the subs inherent limitations. Amplifiers also tend to be more linear when driving an 8 ohm load.
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