Hi All,
I use a modeller for my guitar tones which, as many of you are familiar, simulates the tone of a tube amp, guitar cab and microphone. The best way to amplify this simulated tone is with a flat response, low distortion system. I'm playing around with the idea of building a coaxial wedge monitor to play through. After days of googling and plugging T/S parameters from usspeaker.com into calculators I'm looking for recommendations for a decent 12" coaxial driver and enclosure design. I don't need high SPLs but I wouldn't mind having some headroom if I ever join a band again. The largest enclosure I can imagine using is about 60l which has made makes getting a decent low end difficult - I'm shooting for an Fb below 70hz. Also trying to stick with high dispersion on the HF driver, 90 degree.
Currently, the best set of components I've found is a Radian 5312 (a little pricey, very heavy and absurdly powerful for my needs) in a 45 degree wedge monitor like this:
![url]](/community/proxy.php?image=http%3A%2F%2F%5Burl%5Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fgoo.gl%2Fphotos%2FKssM7eRq372KM7oq7%5B%2Furl%5D&hash=768ee3ee4e0c22ddc6c9703d564dcd2a)
That's 58l internal (subtract 7l for the body, 1 for the ports leaves me with 50l), 24" wide, four 5cm ports that are about 5" long. In simulation it's flat down to 80hz with an Fb of 58hz. It could actually be a little smaller.
![url]](/community/proxy.php?image=http%3A%2F%2F%5Burl%5Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fgoo.gl%2Fphotos%2FYPkhA2YnGcWJuQ9i8%5B%2Furl%5D&hash=7d392ccd96dfffe157dee9cad80ede60)
I looked at the Eminence 12CX but the box nees to be huge to have a deep and flat low end. The B&C 12CXT is a possibility, as is the Radian 512/2B.
Basically I'm looking for folks with more experience to try and help me narrow down options, maybe nudge me a way from a big mistake.
Brian
I use a modeller for my guitar tones which, as many of you are familiar, simulates the tone of a tube amp, guitar cab and microphone. The best way to amplify this simulated tone is with a flat response, low distortion system. I'm playing around with the idea of building a coaxial wedge monitor to play through. After days of googling and plugging T/S parameters from usspeaker.com into calculators I'm looking for recommendations for a decent 12" coaxial driver and enclosure design. I don't need high SPLs but I wouldn't mind having some headroom if I ever join a band again. The largest enclosure I can imagine using is about 60l which has made makes getting a decent low end difficult - I'm shooting for an Fb below 70hz. Also trying to stick with high dispersion on the HF driver, 90 degree.
Currently, the best set of components I've found is a Radian 5312 (a little pricey, very heavy and absurdly powerful for my needs) in a 45 degree wedge monitor like this:
That's 58l internal (subtract 7l for the body, 1 for the ports leaves me with 50l), 24" wide, four 5cm ports that are about 5" long. In simulation it's flat down to 80hz with an Fb of 58hz. It could actually be a little smaller.
I looked at the Eminence 12CX but the box nees to be huge to have a deep and flat low end. The B&C 12CXT is a possibility, as is the Radian 512/2B.
Basically I'm looking for folks with more experience to try and help me narrow down options, maybe nudge me a way from a big mistake.
Brian
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What're you going to power this with?
If you have an amp with DSP, you can do some EQ work to get the low end into shape. For instance, if you have a ported box tuned to 60Hz, you can apply boost at 60Hz and above to get a flat response.
Why do you want to an Fb below 80Hz? IIRC, low-E on a guitar is 80Hz, but dropped tunings can get to about 65Hz if you go really low.
If you have a measurement mic (recommended), you can set up something like a Behringer NU3000DSP, Crown XLS2500, whatever, which have a lot of EQ built-in, as well as active crossovers, delays, etc. I'd expect some very good results if you went that way.
Chris
If you have an amp with DSP, you can do some EQ work to get the low end into shape. For instance, if you have a ported box tuned to 60Hz, you can apply boost at 60Hz and above to get a flat response.
Why do you want to an Fb below 80Hz? IIRC, low-E on a guitar is 80Hz, but dropped tunings can get to about 65Hz if you go really low.
If you have a measurement mic (recommended), you can set up something like a Behringer NU3000DSP, Crown XLS2500, whatever, which have a lot of EQ built-in, as well as active crossovers, delays, etc. I'd expect some very good results if you went that way.
Chris
Chris,
Thanks for replying. I have a 2 channel Carvin amp that has just been my defacto standard since I bought it a while back. I'm still trying to determine if a passive or active crossover would be best. For the Radian 5312 the recommended crossover is 24db/octave at 950hz. Since I'll be going mono I am also considering an active crossover and bi-amp setup.
I actually play a 7 string so the lowest note is in the mid 60's as you point out. More importantly I'me trying to get my direct tones (via usb) and my "playing loud" tones to translate better back and forth. Right now I play through a guitar cab and my presets are completely different when I go to record. The extended bass is to help make sure my eq work on the preset is truthful. I know it won't ever be perfect.
Thanks for replying. I have a 2 channel Carvin amp that has just been my defacto standard since I bought it a while back. I'm still trying to determine if a passive or active crossover would be best. For the Radian 5312 the recommended crossover is 24db/octave at 950hz. Since I'll be going mono I am also considering an active crossover and bi-amp setup.
I actually play a 7 string so the lowest note is in the mid 60's as you point out. More importantly I'me trying to get my direct tones (via usb) and my "playing loud" tones to translate better back and forth. Right now I play through a guitar cab and my presets are completely different when I go to record. The extended bass is to help make sure my eq work on the preset is truthful. I know it won't ever be perfect.
24dB/octave electrical, done properly, will be expensive. I'd seriously think about just getting an amp with DSP for that - it'll cost about the same, but you'll add in EQ options.
The Radian driver is a nice unit. It has a "proper" compression driver with a 3" diaphragm. Smaller ones work, but they often have some compromise in the midrange - a 12" cone often starts getting peaky past 2kHz or so, but a small compression driver might not have much power handling there. Check out the B&C driver you mentioned - they recommend 2.2kHz for the crossover, but the woofer is getting a bit ugly up there.
I think a measurement mic is definitely worth you having.
Cheers
Chris
The Radian driver is a nice unit. It has a "proper" compression driver with a 3" diaphragm. Smaller ones work, but they often have some compromise in the midrange - a 12" cone often starts getting peaky past 2kHz or so, but a small compression driver might not have much power handling there. Check out the B&C driver you mentioned - they recommend 2.2kHz for the crossover, but the woofer is getting a bit ugly up there.
I think a measurement mic is definitely worth you having.
Cheers
Chris
Chris,
The more I read, the more a bi-amped system makes sense to me. I prefer simple setups and (once it's made and tuned in) a passive crossover seems elegant in that regard. However, it looks like minidsp.com sells a measurement mic and 2-to-4 way system for about what I'd pay for a passive crossover. Any experience with those products?
Brian
The more I read, the more a bi-amped system makes sense to me. I prefer simple setups and (once it's made and tuned in) a passive crossover seems elegant in that regard. However, it looks like minidsp.com sells a measurement mic and 2-to-4 way system for about what I'd pay for a passive crossover. Any experience with those products?
Brian
No personal experience (I use iNukes), but online reviews are positive. You might want to buy a mic through Cross Spectrum Labs, who offer that mic with an extended calibration curve, as well as polar plots and others. Just a thought.
If you're going to use one rack-mount amp with one cabinet, it makes sense to use both channels of that amp. NL4 cable between amp and cabinet and you're done.
I'm not sure a MiniDSP will do the levels required for a Pro Audio setup, where you can reach +22dB on the meters, which can reach ~10V signal levels. The balanced version might do it. Are you attached to the Carvin amp? - You might be able to sell it and get a PA amp with DSP built-in, for a neater overall setup.
Chris
If you're going to use one rack-mount amp with one cabinet, it makes sense to use both channels of that amp. NL4 cable between amp and cabinet and you're done.
I'm not sure a MiniDSP will do the levels required for a Pro Audio setup, where you can reach +22dB on the meters, which can reach ~10V signal levels. The balanced version might do it. Are you attached to the Carvin amp? - You might be able to sell it and get a PA amp with DSP built-in, for a neater overall setup.
Chris
While we don't want a speaker with a ton of character, of all the modelers, how many out there have a tweeter?
Chris,
That's a good point on signal level, not sure if it matters for me short-term or long-term but I'm glad you brought it up. I am not attached the to the current amp at all, just trying to keep collateral costs down. It occurs to me that I could maybe build a crossover in the modeller itself for initial bi-amp testing though I'm honestly just leaning towards buying a "recommended" passive crossover depending on how ambitious I feel after the woodwork. A measurement mic is still on the wishlist if only to appraise my Mark-Audio 10p pensils at some point.
Right now the best alternative to the Radian 5312 seems to be the Beyma 12KX:
Beyma Coaxial Speakers - Beyma 12KX coaxial speakers - Beyma 12KX 600 watt 12" coaxial speakers for all 2-way applications. Beyma 12KX coxial speaker and other Beyma 12" coaxial speakers here.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Sticking with a internal volume of <60l and a few moderately sized ports it sims a Fb below 60hz. It's also $140 cheaper and 14lbs lighter. It doesn't claim to be "time-aligned" like the Radian and high-frequency rolls off at 17k but that was all I was hoping to get to anyway.
Are you seeing any red flags with my box design approach?
I don't really know. I think some of the better line six all-in-ones have a 2 way but my axe fx is rack mount only. The more popular FRFR systems in that market space get to 17khz or higher. I will say that when you are doing effects post-cabinet simulation you need some bandwidth to maintain realism - 20k is probably overkill but 10k doesn't cut it either.
Well, if you're a hard-core DIYer, and you want a rugged biamp w/crossover, it would be hard to beat this for the $$$:
Project 137-1
That and a Radian will give you all the volume & headroom you'll ever need.
Project 137-1
That and a Radian will give you all the volume & headroom you'll ever need.
Recommended passive crossovers are often far from optimal. Even if they get the slopes right (remember you're looking for at least 18dB/octave*), there's still EQ that can be done with DSP that's a nightmare to do with notch filters etc at speaker-level.
The Beyma driver looks good, as does the Radian. Both are decent manufacturers. I'd pick whichever one sims best at the low end and get that one - the less boost you have to do in the bass, the better. That assumes, of course, everything else is equal. If one's cheaper or will ship faster, that might sway you.
Chris
*12dB/octave gives constant excursion as frequency decreases, so your compression driver will still have problems with out-of-band signals if you go this route. I'd treat 18dB/octave as a minimum slope for moderate or high-power use.
The Beyma driver looks good, as does the Radian. Both are decent manufacturers. I'd pick whichever one sims best at the low end and get that one - the less boost you have to do in the bass, the better. That assumes, of course, everything else is equal. If one's cheaper or will ship faster, that might sway you.
Chris
*12dB/octave gives constant excursion as frequency decreases, so your compression driver will still have problems with out-of-band signals if you go this route. I'd treat 18dB/octave as a minimum slope for moderate or high-power use.
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