This is about an e-mu 1616m pc sound card (about the external dock part)
Trying to setup an external subwoofer to a second pair of output, I have used an rca adapter that had obviously short circuit the right and left channel (1616m dock) while playing. The immediate effect of this was that the output volume signal of all analog outputs had been decreased to about 10db (a guess). Output now is considerably low but it remains clean as before, no noise or anything.
I would be grateful if anyone could advice, guide me a bit to see what I can do to fix it if possible. I would like to say that I can still use my card at full functionality but I now have to increase speakers volume by the lost volume output.
What do you think had happened? Thank you in advance
Trying to setup an external subwoofer to a second pair of output, I have used an rca adapter that had obviously short circuit the right and left channel (1616m dock) while playing. The immediate effect of this was that the output volume signal of all analog outputs had been decreased to about 10db (a guess). Output now is considerably low but it remains clean as before, no noise or anything.
I would be grateful if anyone could advice, guide me a bit to see what I can do to fix it if possible. I would like to say that I can still use my card at full functionality but I now have to increase speakers volume by the lost volume output.
What do you think had happened? Thank you in advance
I will need more detailed info. The output jacks are all TRS balanced jacks but in my experience shorting one side of the balanced output has no long term effect.
I would be more concerned about the external subwoofer and its grounding and safety. The most likely scenario causing the problem you note would be external power damaging the internal circuitry.
Did you check the settings in the patchmix? It has both -10 and +4 output options.
You should check the outputs with a scope to see what is happening. My guess is a damaged power supply. Those are not really repairable.
I would be more concerned about the external subwoofer and its grounding and safety. The most likely scenario causing the problem you note would be external power damaging the internal circuitry.
Did you check the settings in the patchmix? It has both -10 and +4 output options.
You should check the outputs with a scope to see what is happening. My guess is a damaged power supply. Those are not really repairable.
More info
Thank you for your kind reply.
This sub is a real fail for me, there was a custom cable made by me following instructions from here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/chip-amps/110310-hacking-logitech-z5500-57.html#post4495443
The setup worked OK at the beginning. The sub (unbalanced in) was not something special for my needs, I should have left it unused and get a real balanced one. Main monitors are always balanced and i/o +4 in patchmix. (the -10/+4 setting still works but the gain, i believe, is less noticeable now).
After a working sub (mediocre quality by the way), I thought I could use L and R channel together so I could hear sub frequencies from both channels not only the one plugged (sub is one speaker that is why, there could be some panning in low end in my mixes).
Then I bridged (i believed) L & R of output 2 (output 1 = monitors) with an questionable quality adapter I had laying around, this one:
This was the fail, after plugging, every output turned to low volume immediately. Excuse my ignorance, I am not an expert, I should have asked here at first. Checked also in a second OS installation in the same pc with the same behavior. But a driver reinstall could not harm.
I have this card from 2005 so I believe I know how it sould sound. One thing I had not checked is active monitors, but I guess is impossible to fail this way (is it?).
There is no noise or other interference to point in a failed psu but I cannot be sure as it is not the original, the original failed a long ago.
Thank you for your kind reply.
This sub is a real fail for me, there was a custom cable made by me following instructions from here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/chip-amps/110310-hacking-logitech-z5500-57.html#post4495443
The setup worked OK at the beginning. The sub (unbalanced in) was not something special for my needs, I should have left it unused and get a real balanced one. Main monitors are always balanced and i/o +4 in patchmix. (the -10/+4 setting still works but the gain, i believe, is less noticeable now).
After a working sub (mediocre quality by the way), I thought I could use L and R channel together so I could hear sub frequencies from both channels not only the one plugged (sub is one speaker that is why, there could be some panning in low end in my mixes).
Then I bridged (i believed) L & R of output 2 (output 1 = monitors) with an questionable quality adapter I had laying around, this one:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
This was the fail, after plugging, every output turned to low volume immediately. Excuse my ignorance, I am not an expert, I should have asked here at first. Checked also in a second OS installation in the same pc with the same behavior. But a driver reinstall could not harm.
I have this card from 2005 so I believe I know how it sould sound. One thing I had not checked is active monitors, but I guess is impossible to fail this way (is it?).
There is no noise or other interference to point in a failed psu but I cannot be sure as it is not the original, the original failed a long ago.
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here is a picture for a quick view of the internals of the main outputs, borrowed from an other post: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/chip...-audio-integrated-opamps-207.html#post3159860
My guess still is power coming back from the subwoofer. The power supply in the 1616M is a pretty involved switching supply taking the 48V and converting it to +/- 15V , 5V and 3V for the logic. Troubleshooting it difficult since the boards are nested and can't operate if they aren't connected. I believe the supply chip is on the upper board (not shown in the picture). The first step would be measurements of the audio outputs. My guess is that one of the supplies is missing and the swing will not be full and may have distortion. The supplies are on the large connector header. I don't have documentation so I can't help with with which pin is which but starting from the end toward the front (ground) I believe the next 4 pins are power.
Normal sound is back with reinstallation
Thank you very much, I feel sorry for the frustration. This is what have happened next... I have just reinstalled drivers and patchmix (full uninstall / reinstall with all the restarts) and everything came back to normal... !
Really odd, but I have seen several times similar behavior but with no sound at all.
So now the question goes to the sub and if it is safe to use it. I guess I cannot have stereo to mono for the sub at the moment, at least with this sub.
Thank you very much, I feel sorry for the frustration. This is what have happened next... I have just reinstalled drivers and patchmix (full uninstall / reinstall with all the restarts) and everything came back to normal... !
Really odd, but I have seen several times similar behavior but with no sound at all.
So now the question goes to the sub and if it is safe to use it. I guess I cannot have stereo to mono for the sub at the moment, at least with this sub.
I'm not really sure... so I have to test it further, thank for your help. I will proceed to measurements of the audio outputs soon
All outputs sound as they should be. Routing: Sub plays in one channel only, separate output in an aux channel with an 1-band self EQ for fine tunning. Monitors at +4, sub at -10. pretty much controllable but from 2 knobs.
I will have to find a way in the future to make sub respond to both R+L signals.
I will have to find a way in the future to make sub respond to both R+L signals.
Could you use patch mix to mix for the sub? Actually mixing the bass channels will degrade the bass since any out of phase bass cancels and microphones always have some phase difference.
It's possible that connecting the sub happened to send a transient into the logic. Reloading it from scratch could have cleared it.
Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk
Use the pan controls on patchmix to mix the signal to mono and run a single output cable to the sub. Don't use the cold line for a unbalanced signal, just the hot and ground. On the TRS that would the T/S.
Routing the sub in patchmix
Now we know that there is behavior like this, it might help others to solve similar issues. Sound has been recovered with this "drivers/app reset".
At the time being this sub will be a support for low end frequencies to my main monitors. The room is very small, I had lost a lot of low frequencies and there is no chance to change monitors position for now. Sub is one easy solution.
There is not a special instrument that will use sub individually. The goal is a 2.1 system as a temporary workaround until I will have a real balanced sub monitor.
Hopefully, I have done this right:
e-mu output 1: Main monitors (Balanced signal) Stereo jack as usual
e-mu output 3 (R or L): Sub (unbalanced signal) Mono jack to this custom cable (rca).
Sub has not any satellites or potentiometer to adjust its volume or crossover parameters, it is just a box. This came from a consumer THX home cinema 5.1 sound system (Logitech Z5500) that had a dead corresponding controller. Nothing more than the on/off button and an odd vga 15pin male plug that used to connect the panel (a sound card style contoller). The 5.1 amp is inside the sub. Some stores on ebay sell 2.1 and 5.1 "hack" cables for those who have a non operational panel. Some of them have a build in volume control. Those cables are expensive.
So, I have to control the volume as my custom cable is very draft.
Patchmix: I have inserted in AUX bus: an EQ to fine tune frequencies (no way to use sub crossover), a "SEND" -> sending to: Out 3L/3R DOCK to send the signal to the sub.
I can then control sub volume from aux "send" knob. I cannot see a routing alternative on patchmix to mix the signal to mono only for the sub.
I have monitors in pro i/o mode (+4) and sub in consumer mode (-10).
If you have better alternatives I will be pleased to hear them
As for the phasing effect 1audio pointed, I will keep that in mind.
thanks for your interest.
Now we know that there is behavior like this, it might help others to solve similar issues. Sound has been recovered with this "drivers/app reset".
At the time being this sub will be a support for low end frequencies to my main monitors. The room is very small, I had lost a lot of low frequencies and there is no chance to change monitors position for now. Sub is one easy solution.
There is not a special instrument that will use sub individually. The goal is a 2.1 system as a temporary workaround until I will have a real balanced sub monitor.
Hopefully, I have done this right:
e-mu output 1: Main monitors (Balanced signal) Stereo jack as usual
e-mu output 3 (R or L): Sub (unbalanced signal) Mono jack to this custom cable (rca).
Sub has not any satellites or potentiometer to adjust its volume or crossover parameters, it is just a box. This came from a consumer THX home cinema 5.1 sound system (Logitech Z5500) that had a dead corresponding controller. Nothing more than the on/off button and an odd vga 15pin male plug that used to connect the panel (a sound card style contoller). The 5.1 amp is inside the sub. Some stores on ebay sell 2.1 and 5.1 "hack" cables for those who have a non operational panel. Some of them have a build in volume control. Those cables are expensive.
So, I have to control the volume as my custom cable is very draft.
Patchmix: I have inserted in AUX bus: an EQ to fine tune frequencies (no way to use sub crossover), a "SEND" -> sending to: Out 3L/3R DOCK to send the signal to the sub.
I can then control sub volume from aux "send" knob. I cannot see a routing alternative on patchmix to mix the signal to mono only for the sub.
I have monitors in pro i/o mode (+4) and sub in consumer mode (-10).
If you have better alternatives I will be pleased to hear them
As for the phasing effect 1audio pointed, I will keep that in mind.
thanks for your interest.
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Volume control is an issue I hadn't thought of. I use another soundcard for mixing and control and my e-Mu as a DSP and routing station. I suppose you could use the playback software to control it, but that would be detrimental to quality.
The physical connections seem right, but you shouldn't be using the aux bus. What you need to do it insert a send to an unused ASIO input on the mixer strip of the playback host. Then create a new strip with the input set to the ASIO host you just assigned. This will 'copy' the input to the second mixer strip.
You will now have access to the pan controls, and can use the effects panel to set up individual crossovers etc. Obviously, you want this fader to be all the way down so it doesn't mix back into the output. You can route the physical send here as well. No need for the aux bus. Bit as said, no way to control volume together either.
Another more complex way to do this is route the output to one of the inputs. You can copy the monitor out to Phys out 2 L/R, patch it back into Input 1/2, set up the mixer with a new input strip and EQand route the output into 3 L/R out. Again, the fader needs to go to zero to avoid the main mix from getting affected, but now the monitor control will affect both he sub and the main out. You will need to make two 1/4" TRS patch cables though, and incur an extra step of conversion but for a sub signal I'd wager it's not much of a difference.
The issue is that you can't put a highpass on the main out when doing this.
The physical connections seem right, but you shouldn't be using the aux bus. What you need to do it insert a send to an unused ASIO input on the mixer strip of the playback host. Then create a new strip with the input set to the ASIO host you just assigned. This will 'copy' the input to the second mixer strip.
You will now have access to the pan controls, and can use the effects panel to set up individual crossovers etc. Obviously, you want this fader to be all the way down so it doesn't mix back into the output. You can route the physical send here as well. No need for the aux bus. Bit as said, no way to control volume together either.
Another more complex way to do this is route the output to one of the inputs. You can copy the monitor out to Phys out 2 L/R, patch it back into Input 1/2, set up the mixer with a new input strip and EQand route the output into 3 L/R out. Again, the fader needs to go to zero to avoid the main mix from getting affected, but now the monitor control will affect both he sub and the main out. You will need to make two 1/4" TRS patch cables though, and incur an extra step of conversion but for a sub signal I'd wager it's not much of a difference.
The issue is that you can't put a highpass on the main out when doing this.
Sangram: I'm in awe of your knowledge of the emu patchmix. its one of the most forbidding parts of the product and I'm told one of the challenges in getting customers to accept it. The analog workaround seems kludgy but should work fine for a sub.
🙂 Gotta work with what I got!
I suffer from the disadvantage of not having ever worked with a proper router, but I'm informed that anyone who's worked with similar hardware can find their way around Patchmix with relative ease. IIRC the reason that the product wasn't accepted by the pro market was that it was not capable enough as a mixing solution and not a powerful enough tool to fully sub for a hardware rack. And the DSP was sub-par as well, not enough, and not powerful enough. So only the converters were worth anything to them. That, and the price.
The consumer market could not find their way around Patchmix, so I suppose it was two sad stories coming together to basically kill the product range entirely. The discontinuation of PCI and the move to Windows 7 was the final nail in the coffin, so Creative decided never to release a similar product. A pity, as the converters are still among the best you can get on a card of this kind.
I use a different solution to avoid double conversion with a similar setup, I have a mAudio Delta to which all the software outputs are sent. This controls the master volume and passes it over digital output to the e-Mu 0404, which then uses its physical sends to pass two stereo outputs, one with main mix and one with sub mix. Obviously one is still S/PDIF.
As of now the analog out feeds the sub, and the digital out feeds a Buffalo DAC for the main output, but I've also tried it with the analog out feeding the mains directly and the digital output sent back to the Delta, which converts the signal to analog and routes it to the subwoofer.
Edit: I just figured that you can use digital patching and avoid the extra conversion process.
I suffer from the disadvantage of not having ever worked with a proper router, but I'm informed that anyone who's worked with similar hardware can find their way around Patchmix with relative ease. IIRC the reason that the product wasn't accepted by the pro market was that it was not capable enough as a mixing solution and not a powerful enough tool to fully sub for a hardware rack. And the DSP was sub-par as well, not enough, and not powerful enough. So only the converters were worth anything to them. That, and the price.
The consumer market could not find their way around Patchmix, so I suppose it was two sad stories coming together to basically kill the product range entirely. The discontinuation of PCI and the move to Windows 7 was the final nail in the coffin, so Creative decided never to release a similar product. A pity, as the converters are still among the best you can get on a card of this kind.
I use a different solution to avoid double conversion with a similar setup, I have a mAudio Delta to which all the software outputs are sent. This controls the master volume and passes it over digital output to the e-Mu 0404, which then uses its physical sends to pass two stereo outputs, one with main mix and one with sub mix. Obviously one is still S/PDIF.
As of now the analog out feeds the sub, and the digital out feeds a Buffalo DAC for the main output, but I've also tried it with the analog out feeding the mains directly and the digital output sent back to the Delta, which converts the signal to analog and routes it to the subwoofer.
Edit: I just figured that you can use digital patching and avoid the extra conversion process.
Routing the sub in patchmix
First of all thanks for the suggestions. I had never used patchmix this way. So I have used a software for this, vsthost to open asio i/o. I can use any vst fx there also. But I have noticed latency, you have to consider. To be sure I entered 5ms in asio preferences, and the signal is in sync and panning will pass all the information to the one channel. It is a good deal for playing music. But for mixing, when I have to deal with heavy projects that have high cpu demands (>20ms) there is audible latency.
digital patching: do you mean optical, to use adat i/o? Lets say I use an optical cable to bridge input and output in the panel, will then have the ability to route from:
1. player/daw ASIO OUT -> SEND to ADAT Out 1/2 -> cable to ADAT physical in
2. DOCK ADAT 1/2: PANNING + EQ-> SEND TO physical OUT 3
will this avoid D/A-A/D conversions ?
As for the emu cards history, I agree with you. There are many points to think about. There is a positive outcome I think. For me drivers are solid. x64 is ok, and low latency. I would like to see some 96/24 DSP fx, but I guess the chip does not have the power to do so.
I have read that even win10 will use those drivers successfully. This is a real advantage for a technology of this age.
Emu has made one of the most long existing cards of all times. Despite its frustrating disadvantages, there are some good and useful stuff for the pro and novice users.
I still remember those custom KX drivers, excellent and open source kX Project -- FAQ (Frequently asked questions),
kX Project Audio Driver Support Forum | Hardware Heaven Forums
for the same DSP chip on many Audigy versions. There are many possibilities to use old hardware, even connect and route audio systems together with very low cost hardware. This thing I believe will live long even it will never be supported again, no matter pro or consumer.
What about the future (?)😕🙄:
When I had phased this "fake fail" issue, I started to think about new portable sound card solutions with routing capabilities. I came across and have searched about this one:
MOTU ultralite-avb for a fresh new replacement.
MOTU.com - Overview
First of all thanks for the suggestions. I had never used patchmix this way. So I have used a software for this, vsthost to open asio i/o. I can use any vst fx there also. But I have noticed latency, you have to consider. To be sure I entered 5ms in asio preferences, and the signal is in sync and panning will pass all the information to the one channel. It is a good deal for playing music. But for mixing, when I have to deal with heavy projects that have high cpu demands (>20ms) there is audible latency.
digital patching: do you mean optical, to use adat i/o? Lets say I use an optical cable to bridge input and output in the panel, will then have the ability to route from:
1. player/daw ASIO OUT -> SEND to ADAT Out 1/2 -> cable to ADAT physical in
2. DOCK ADAT 1/2: PANNING + EQ-> SEND TO physical OUT 3
will this avoid D/A-A/D conversions ?
As for the emu cards history, I agree with you. There are many points to think about. There is a positive outcome I think. For me drivers are solid. x64 is ok, and low latency. I would like to see some 96/24 DSP fx, but I guess the chip does not have the power to do so.
I have read that even win10 will use those drivers successfully. This is a real advantage for a technology of this age.
Emu has made one of the most long existing cards of all times. Despite its frustrating disadvantages, there are some good and useful stuff for the pro and novice users.
I still remember those custom KX drivers, excellent and open source kX Project -- FAQ (Frequently asked questions),
kX Project Audio Driver Support Forum | Hardware Heaven Forums
for the same DSP chip on many Audigy versions. There are many possibilities to use old hardware, even connect and route audio systems together with very low cost hardware. This thing I believe will live long even it will never be supported again, no matter pro or consumer.
What about the future (?)😕🙄:
When I had phased this "fake fail" issue, I started to think about new portable sound card solutions with routing capabilities. I came across and have searched about this one:
MOTU ultralite-avb for a fresh new replacement.
MOTU.com - Overview
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