Being pressed with some installation limitations in a new home/media space i believe the only viable option might be a built in array. Given the recent slew of Tymphany Buyouts available i'm wondering if i should strike while the Iron's hot. Here's my thought..........
Two arrays comprised of 12 of these in each array grouped 2S-2S-4PS-2S-2S for power tapering( s-series/ps-parallel series)
http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=8659
......each side actively crossed at 120hz LR2 to stereo sealed 12" subs.
Here's the FR of the drivers for those willing to consider the idea as viable
My only concern is if i'll need a HF device of some sort(s)....maybe a centrally mounted super tweeter of high efficiency. It seems the consensus on such 'focused' arrays would require the Xo in the 4-5.5khz range but that seems counter productive to the use of 'full range' drivers? Throwing out some 'rules of thum(s)' could it work at say 8khz first order?
The other possibility is a 'Maggie" tweeter along side but there goes efficiency and power handling..........what's a guy to do?
Free Standing towers are out of the question due to ergonomics leaving only the built in arrays or a pair of high efficiency bookshelfs of the larger flavor. Kindly talk me in or outta love of this idea please?😕
Two arrays comprised of 12 of these in each array grouped 2S-2S-4PS-2S-2S for power tapering( s-series/ps-parallel series)
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=8659
......each side actively crossed at 120hz LR2 to stereo sealed 12" subs.
Here's the FR of the drivers for those willing to consider the idea as viable
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
My only concern is if i'll need a HF device of some sort(s)....maybe a centrally mounted super tweeter of high efficiency. It seems the consensus on such 'focused' arrays would require the Xo in the 4-5.5khz range but that seems counter productive to the use of 'full range' drivers? Throwing out some 'rules of thum(s)' could it work at say 8khz first order?
The other possibility is a 'Maggie" tweeter along side but there goes efficiency and power handling..........what's a guy to do?
Free Standing towers are out of the question due to ergonomics leaving only the built in arrays or a pair of high efficiency bookshelfs of the larger flavor. Kindly talk me in or outta love of this idea please?😕
ever since I heard a pair of DSP corrected "25"s (line array with 25 Visaton FR8) I have been thinking of doing something like this myself for my HT. there was no need for any added tweeter there (maybe consider a back firing 'ambient' tweeter), so with this Vifa there shouldn't be either. If you can afford some sort of DSP (like the Hypex AS2/100 amp&dsp) then do so, the difference was quite big (in favour of the DSP).
I'm hoping to go as minimalist as possible with this project so if i can avoid DSP and keep the filter 1st order simple i'll be a happy camper.
I'd like to invite all full range and line array enthusiasts to take a look at my new full range corner line array project at:
The Murphy Corner-Line-Array
This is a project using Dayton Audio's ND90 3.5" full range driver in a line array designed specifically for corner placement in order to optimize the placement of the room reflections. The design concept is sufficiently unique that I have formally disclosed this new invention in such a way as to place it in the public domain for the benefit of all.
Cheers!
John
The Murphy Corner-Line-Array
This is a project using Dayton Audio's ND90 3.5" full range driver in a line array designed specifically for corner placement in order to optimize the placement of the room reflections. The design concept is sufficiently unique that I have formally disclosed this new invention in such a way as to place it in the public domain for the benefit of all.
Cheers!
John
I read the paper and look forward to updates by John.
I appreciate the theory as stated in laymans terms, even I could understand it.
I have never heard a line array (well at concerts but that does not count) and have been thinking about one for the last year or so to try but the cost keeps me at bay.
What I would like to know is ~efficiency of the finished speaker, how much power it needs, how are they wired, how much eq and where in the frequency band is required, enclosure damping, does the 1/2 inch bevel on the front of each driver hole affect the upper frequency response i.e. is there some horn loading happening and lastly (for now) does the cabinet not require any internal bracing?
Andrew
I appreciate the theory as stated in laymans terms, even I could understand it.
I have never heard a line array (well at concerts but that does not count) and have been thinking about one for the last year or so to try but the cost keeps me at bay.
What I would like to know is ~efficiency of the finished speaker, how much power it needs, how are they wired, how much eq and where in the frequency band is required, enclosure damping, does the 1/2 inch bevel on the front of each driver hole affect the upper frequency response i.e. is there some horn loading happening and lastly (for now) does the cabinet not require any internal bracing?
Andrew
I think the tc9 driver would be great for the $$.
It will take mucho eq to overcome the combing but for its purpose it should work well.
Home theater dynamics is a plus and the high intelligibility should make it a winner............
Norman
It will take mucho eq to overcome the combing but for its purpose it should work well.
Home theater dynamics is a plus and the high intelligibility should make it a winner............
Norman
yes, you will need efficient tweeter with these, more likely compression driver and horn or an array of small diameter tweeters (Dayton ND16FA-6 maybe)
there will be no sensitivity gain at higher frequencies ( frequencies that are beamed by woofers)
Parts Express: Project Showcase
for full range array I'd consider smaller FR drivers, such as HiVi B1S
there will be no sensitivity gain at higher frequencies ( frequencies that are beamed by woofers)
Parts Express: Project Showcase
for full range array I'd consider smaller FR drivers, such as HiVi B1S
seems the line of 3.5" is down 3db at 4khz, so you can cross a tweeter in.
Or just run a long line of 3.5" drivers, you should be able to eq it with a 10 band equalizer.
It just depends on how you want to do it.
1 stout tweeter in the middle should work well, but now you have a crossover into changing impedances.
No tweeter then requires massive eq, and should have worse imaging in comparison.
I've been wondering what a kuze array or ids array sounds like.
Advantages of the IDS Technology
Parts Express: Project Showcase
A line a tweeters would add sparkle, but combing is always present.
I remember a selah array sounded better when you cover top and bottom tweeters.
Norman
Or just run a long line of 3.5" drivers, you should be able to eq it with a 10 band equalizer.
It just depends on how you want to do it.
1 stout tweeter in the middle should work well, but now you have a crossover into changing impedances.
No tweeter then requires massive eq, and should have worse imaging in comparison.
I've been wondering what a kuze array or ids array sounds like.
Advantages of the IDS Technology
Parts Express: Project Showcase
A line a tweeters would add sparkle, but combing is always present.
I remember a selah array sounded better when you cover top and bottom tweeters.
Norman
Question: What is Your main reason for using power tapering ?
In the bass range i cannot see any advantage, besides you loose
dynamic headroom, because the drivers carrying more load will
have larger excursion, which causes distorsion.
Is your line array dedicated to operate as asatelite with a subwoofer
or standalone ?
If you want to influence vertical dispersion and combing why not
use frequency dependent power tapering, boosting the treble for
one/some of the drivers which are on height of the listeners head.
A tweeter is definitely not necessary to get enough "sparkle"
when the correction network is aligned properly.
In the bass range i cannot see any advantage, besides you loose
dynamic headroom, because the drivers carrying more load will
have larger excursion, which causes distorsion.
Is your line array dedicated to operate as asatelite with a subwoofer
or standalone ?
If you want to influence vertical dispersion and combing why not
use frequency dependent power tapering, boosting the treble for
one/some of the drivers which are on height of the listeners head.
A tweeter is definitely not necessary to get enough "sparkle"
when the correction network is aligned properly.
Mayhem13,
I built a nice array with 20 Tang Band 3.5 inch Al/Mg full range drivers per side. They sound fantastic with excellent vocals, horns, piano. One thing I wish I had done was offset the speakers in the vertical column. I must mention that for some reason the line array sounds quite bad with hard rock music. I do not think that the confusion from all of the instruments translates well.
If you listen to vocals like Donna Krall and good jazz you will be very pleased. The soundstage and clarity is astounding.
Your idea of adding a woofer and crossing somewhere between 350-600 would be a good idea. Also, when I added padding inside it greatly muffled the sound. An open baffle sounds the best to me.
If you plan to cut all of those holes in MDF I would advise you to turn the drill speed down. The glue will make the holesaw very hot.
You will like the line array.
Tad
I built a nice array with 20 Tang Band 3.5 inch Al/Mg full range drivers per side. They sound fantastic with excellent vocals, horns, piano. One thing I wish I had done was offset the speakers in the vertical column. I must mention that for some reason the line array sounds quite bad with hard rock music. I do not think that the confusion from all of the instruments translates well.
If you listen to vocals like Donna Krall and good jazz you will be very pleased. The soundstage and clarity is astounding.
Your idea of adding a woofer and crossing somewhere between 350-600 would be a good idea. Also, when I added padding inside it greatly muffled the sound. An open baffle sounds the best to me.
If you plan to cut all of those holes in MDF I would advise you to turn the drill speed down. The glue will make the holesaw very hot.
You will like the line array.
Tad
How are the reflections in the corner created with the speaker?
With a mirror we see the reflections in a corner mirror because there is light reflecting off the the back of the object we are placing in the corner.
Your speakers are radiating into the room not out the back into the corner, seeing as how we are dealing with sound and not light it seems that the reflections are going to be off of the front and side walls a foot or two out from the corner.
How is it then that the reflections form an octagon?
Corner Line Array
Hello Line Array Enthusiasts!
I've added three more figures and more duscussion to help clarify the image analysis method I used to design my new corner line arrays. Image analysis is such a powerful method that I want to give my readers more confidence in the method as appied to loudspeakers in rooms.
Here is a photo showing a simple mirror demonstration of how the corner reflections work:
![url]](/community/proxy.php?image=http%3A%2F%2F%5Burl%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.trueaudio.com%2Farray%2Fimages%2Fmirror+test.jpg%5B%2Furl%5D&hash=c8902f69b94866c2939f8a1680000a02)
Here is a link to the updated Design page:
Cheers!
John
Hello Line Array Enthusiasts!
I've added three more figures and more duscussion to help clarify the image analysis method I used to design my new corner line arrays. Image analysis is such a powerful method that I want to give my readers more confidence in the method as appied to loudspeakers in rooms.
Here is a photo showing a simple mirror demonstration of how the corner reflections work:
Here is a link to the updated Design page:
The Murphy Corner-Line-Array Design ConceptsCheers!
John
So John, I am curious since you are ultilizing the corner why such sharp terminations? I don't know how much audible benefit there would be to either trying a convex or concave termination to the wall, but I see possible benefits. Convex would put edge diffraction at the wall, where concave could minimize it all together. Just a thought. Would seem like a simple experiment to try.
Ah, my favorite, the full range driver focused array.
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue29/ces/137.jpg
I have a 4 x 4" driver TB bamboo focused vertical array coming in a week, then a 9 x b3s focused array in the works (done next year sometime).
But you have 1 listening distance at 1 exact height off the ground (3") in an arc from the speaker. I think it is worth it. Good for everyone on 1 couch facing the speaker.
Norman
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue29/ces/137.jpg
I have a 4 x 4" driver TB bamboo focused vertical array coming in a week, then a 9 x b3s focused array in the works (done next year sometime).
But you have 1 listening distance at 1 exact height off the ground (3") in an arc from the speaker. I think it is worth it. Good for everyone on 1 couch facing the speaker.
Norman
Norman,
Villain3g (on the AudioRoundTable line array forum) started with a curved array and reported recently that he has changed to a straight array in this thread:
AudioRoundTable.com: Array Speakers => First speakers - a little ambitious - curved array
He reports the following impression of his straight array vs. his earlier curved array:
"I've got them running. I went with a straight baffle in the end. It seems to have a more consistent sound when moving through the listening area. The addition of the tweeters is the most significant. Where there was an annoying confusion in metal rock and complex orchestral pieces is now a pleasant accuracy."
My comment is that I think that a straight line array will trump a concave line array for most DIY'ers because of better sound clarity and wider listening space.
Jim Griffin
Villain3g (on the AudioRoundTable line array forum) started with a curved array and reported recently that he has changed to a straight array in this thread:
AudioRoundTable.com: Array Speakers => First speakers - a little ambitious - curved array
He reports the following impression of his straight array vs. his earlier curved array:
"I've got them running. I went with a straight baffle in the end. It seems to have a more consistent sound when moving through the listening area. The addition of the tweeters is the most significant. Where there was an annoying confusion in metal rock and complex orchestral pieces is now a pleasant accuracy."
My comment is that I think that a straight line array will trump a concave line array for most DIY'ers because of better sound clarity and wider listening space.
Jim Griffin
Hiya Jim,
thanks for the great link.
I agree, a flat array will sound better everywhere in a room, instead of an arc exactly the right vertical height and distance from a focused array. You win on that point.
I think that Villian3g's focused setup has a problem with IM distortion. I saw a sub in one of the later pictures. Active crossing 24db @200hz, metal and symphony and even rap would sound mucho better, but good luck finding a reasonably priced wonderfull sounding active crossover.
16 x 2" = 208in2, or the same area as a single 8". It's easy to make an 8" full range driver sound bad, play something with long bass guitar notes not at its ported frequency.
"They excelled with acoustic guitar, vocal, and smooth jazz. Where they seemed to fall off is with electric guitar as in heavy metal. The distortion of the guitar is muddled." and "Acoustic guitar and vocal music sound incredible but the high end in metal music gets confusing. Its hard to describe." and "The addition of the tweeters is the most significant. Where there was an annoying confusion in metal rock and complex orchestral pieces is now a pleasing accuracy."
That about sums up full range drivers, all of them.
Many full range driver fans gravitate to vocal stuff, as it sounds wonderfull on their systems.
Vocal clarity and transparancy trumps any 2 way or more to a full range driver fan, but we are seeing some supertweets and subs added for enjoyment.
Why does voice sound best on full range drivers ?
I think we are most sensitive to voice compared to anything else.
But full range drivers have a hard time with anything with bass.
I remember the Copernicus II runs 16 of the 3" drivers plus sub, and dzmitri settled on 16 of the 4" nsb drivers with a supertweet in the middle and sub. 16 x 3" is about 512cm2 or close to a 12" driver (with very limited xmax 2.5 x 8"driver = 12" driver). Everytime you double the drivers, excursion is halved (at same volume) and Total harmonic distortion is quartered (less garble). So less distortion = cleaner sound.
If you are a full range driver fan, you want more volume (or bass), and a very big IF you can tolerate the sweet spot, a focused array makes sence.
Norman
thanks for the great link.
I agree, a flat array will sound better everywhere in a room, instead of an arc exactly the right vertical height and distance from a focused array. You win on that point.
I think that Villian3g's focused setup has a problem with IM distortion. I saw a sub in one of the later pictures. Active crossing 24db @200hz, metal and symphony and even rap would sound mucho better, but good luck finding a reasonably priced wonderfull sounding active crossover.
16 x 2" = 208in2, or the same area as a single 8". It's easy to make an 8" full range driver sound bad, play something with long bass guitar notes not at its ported frequency.
"They excelled with acoustic guitar, vocal, and smooth jazz. Where they seemed to fall off is with electric guitar as in heavy metal. The distortion of the guitar is muddled." and "Acoustic guitar and vocal music sound incredible but the high end in metal music gets confusing. Its hard to describe." and "The addition of the tweeters is the most significant. Where there was an annoying confusion in metal rock and complex orchestral pieces is now a pleasing accuracy."
That about sums up full range drivers, all of them.
Many full range driver fans gravitate to vocal stuff, as it sounds wonderfull on their systems.
Vocal clarity and transparancy trumps any 2 way or more to a full range driver fan, but we are seeing some supertweets and subs added for enjoyment.
Why does voice sound best on full range drivers ?
I think we are most sensitive to voice compared to anything else.
But full range drivers have a hard time with anything with bass.
I remember the Copernicus II runs 16 of the 3" drivers plus sub, and dzmitri settled on 16 of the 4" nsb drivers with a supertweet in the middle and sub. 16 x 3" is about 512cm2 or close to a 12" driver (with very limited xmax 2.5 x 8"driver = 12" driver). Everytime you double the drivers, excursion is halved (at same volume) and Total harmonic distortion is quartered (less garble). So less distortion = cleaner sound.
If you are a full range driver fan, you want more volume (or bass), and a very big IF you can tolerate the sweet spot, a focused array makes sence.
Norman
Ideally the square edges are very close to the wall providing only a small gap between the enclosure and its reflection. I elected to keep this edge square primarily just for simplicity. While a roundover would seem to minimize diffraction it would also make for a bigger discontinuity between the enclosure and the wall reflection...so it's hard to say. Given that we are talking about a very small gap at the wall (1/4 inch or less) it should not make a very big difference below 20 kHz.
Regards,
John
nothing has to be permanent .
so you can try as many or few things as you like.
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An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
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