Does anyone have experience with building a diy speaker with ribbon tweeter speakers? I would like a project with these characteristics for roughly $1000. I would prefer not to build the cabinets if a good quality kit can be found.
Lots of us have built speakers with ribbon tweeters. I know I have.
I think you are asking about a full range + supertweeter design using a ribbon for the supertweeter?
IMHO ribbons are not optimum for this. They often do have excellent performance in the top octave (10-20kHz), but it is difficult to get them to integrate. The little horn types are much more reliable. If you really must use a ribbon as supertweeter, it will work best if you use a very small one.
Anyhow, I don't know offhand of a kit utilizing a ribbon supertweeter and a full range. There are many kits available for two and 3 ways using ribbon tweeters. You are better off with one of these. IIRC, Meniscus, GR research, Madisound and many others offer some sort of ribbon kit.
I think you are asking about a full range + supertweeter design using a ribbon for the supertweeter?
IMHO ribbons are not optimum for this. They often do have excellent performance in the top octave (10-20kHz), but it is difficult to get them to integrate. The little horn types are much more reliable. If you really must use a ribbon as supertweeter, it will work best if you use a very small one.
Anyhow, I don't know offhand of a kit utilizing a ribbon supertweeter and a full range. There are many kits available for two and 3 ways using ribbon tweeters. You are better off with one of these. IIRC, Meniscus, GR research, Madisound and many others offer some sort of ribbon kit.
Greg, what would you recommend? Design is secondary to sound. I would like to build a super high quality full range speaker that would compare with something in the $5000 to $10,000 range in the retail market. I would be willing to invest more for the right design. I have seen ribbon type speakers in this range and above so I may be assuming this is a superior design. Building a speaker capable of revealing incredibly high detail is my goal. Something that sounds extremely real and three dimensional, even to "untrained" ears.
I know the sound I describe is something which is, quite possibly, very difficult to achieve, and that there are many other factors involved, such as amplifier, source, room size, etc. I can see I have tens, or possibly hundreds hours of reading ahead of me. I welcome and help you have to offer. Thank you.
Looking at the morel cat378, with a 5.6uF it is down 6db@2khz.
And it sits at 92db.
I too don't know of a kit, but I've been looking at the 94db 8ohm $100 hivi rt2h to use with a full range driver. I may try it with a 12" fane down the river (xmas?), just to add a squeek of sparkle and a lot of dispersion. My buddy ghosts in a super tweet to his dual 4" tang bands, it helps.
Used with a full range driver, distortion should keep you from turning it up too much to worry from burning it up.
Then again, this post is pure speculation.
And it sits at 92db.
I too don't know of a kit, but I've been looking at the 94db 8ohm $100 hivi rt2h to use with a full range driver. I may try it with a 12" fane down the river (xmas?), just to add a squeek of sparkle and a lot of dispersion. My buddy ghosts in a super tweet to his dual 4" tang bands, it helps.
Used with a full range driver, distortion should keep you from turning it up too much to worry from burning it up.
Then again, this post is pure speculation.
I think pleated air motion transformer (AMT) sounds very good. Probably better than ribbons as they don't have breakup or resonance. I haven't heard these units from Dayton but the price is right and they have good reviews. Dayton in general makes very high quality drivers for the price. These are fully built but could probably be modified to sound even better with better bracing, better stuffing, and better cap for the high pass filter.
Dayton Audio B652-AIR 6-1/2" Bookshelf Speaker Pair with AMT Tweeter
AMT's have a flat impedance - no peak at all as they don't have a resonance frequency that affects their resistive nature.
I have ESS Heil AMT's that cost $350 ea, but in my opinion, they are unique in that they are almost like a full range in terms of being able to cross them much lower than a typical tweeter such as a ribbon or dome. I cross at 650Hz and they sound exceptional. The detail, holographic imaging, transient ability, smoothness make them unmatched. Even at $700 a pair and add $300 for woofers and a XO and you have a superb speaker. A high sensitivity pro audio (98dB or more) woofer would be best.
Look at their bandwidth and polar response:
Here is the response in a 2-way and the harmonic disortion:
Listen here to sound clip:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/attachments/full-range/454898d1419140358-hyperfast-hypercube-based-2-way-amt-6mdn44-clip-ab-02.zip
Dayton Audio B652-AIR 6-1/2" Bookshelf Speaker Pair with AMT Tweeter
AMT's have a flat impedance - no peak at all as they don't have a resonance frequency that affects their resistive nature.
I have ESS Heil AMT's that cost $350 ea, but in my opinion, they are unique in that they are almost like a full range in terms of being able to cross them much lower than a typical tweeter such as a ribbon or dome. I cross at 650Hz and they sound exceptional. The detail, holographic imaging, transient ability, smoothness make them unmatched. Even at $700 a pair and add $300 for woofers and a XO and you have a superb speaker. A high sensitivity pro audio (98dB or more) woofer would be best.
Look at their bandwidth and polar response:
Here is the response in a 2-way and the harmonic disortion:
Listen here to sound clip:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/attachments/full-range/454898d1419140358-hyperfast-hypercube-based-2-way-amt-6mdn44-clip-ab-02.zip
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It sounds like you are looking for a reference monitor type speaker. As you suppose, something that sounds extremely real and 3 dimensional is basically what you get with a good high fidelity speaker.
I haven't heard this one, but it looks like a good design: ER18MTM They are somewhat similar to my own homebrewed reference monitors. You may want to check around for some reviews.
Ribbons are tricky to work with. Regardless of how much you read, you probably aren't going to come up with a great 2-way ribbon based speaker on your first try at DIY. It took me more than a year to get my ribbons to sound right, and I had 10 years of experience and at least a dozen projects under my belt at that point. If you aspire to design your own 2-way ribbon speakers, I agree with xrk971's AMT recommendation. AMT have a similar sound yet are much easier to deal with than true ribbons.
Just to make sure we are clear... Full Range WRT this forum refers to speakers in which a single driver covers all or at least most of of the full range of a speaker. So technically we are off topic...
So back on topic: An off the top of my head recommendation for DIY a full range speaker with a supertweeter would be a Metronome with the Fostex FF225WK running wide open, and a little AMT clone from Dayton or whoever capped off with a 1uF to 1.5uF highpass to fill in the top octave. When a tweeter is highpassed this high say above 10kHz or so, it is basically just adding imaging information and detail, and is called a supertweeter. Sorry if any of this sound patronizing, but I don't know your experience level.
We could post this on multi-way, but they will beat you up there.
Most of them are against full range drivers, let alone a ghosted in 6db single capped tweet/super tweet.
They yell or will call you dumb for not using a horrid 12db (or more) crossover.
Most of them are against full range drivers, let alone a ghosted in 6db single capped tweet/super tweet.
They yell or will call you dumb for not using a horrid 12db (or more) crossover.
Lol. Many on the Multiway guys are actually pretty helpful. But you may be asked why you are not using a 4th order Linkwitz Riley with a time aligned all pass filter. 🙂
The low cost AMT super tweet is a good idea. Those are about $30 from Dayton and have raving reviews. Work well above 6kHz which is perfect as super tweeter.
Try a Monacor RBT-95 magnetostatic. It's not hugely expensive. I run it as the tweeter to a Richard Allan wide range 8incher (originally World Audio design KLS2, but I blew a tweeter) which runs wide open. I like 'em. Best to experiment with inexpensive stuff, to find out how you want to spend your really mad money.
Cheers Steve
Cheers Steve
That much cash doesn't go that far these days. Frugel-horn Mk3 or FHXL would easily fall into that kind of retail space and be very competitive.
Althou it won't plumb the lowest octaves, FH3 with Alpair 7.3, or better yet A7.3eN or A7 MOAP certainly have superb DDR -- excellent detail, and the ability to throw a good image/soundstage.
You might find that adding a tweeter to a big FR is not as effective as adding a woofer to a smaller FR.
That said i am thinking of mating my CSS RT1 ribbons with the new Alpair 12pw. I'd XO as low as i can get away with.
dave
Thanks for your help I appreciate your suggestions. xrk971, that AMT driver looks amazing, I've never seen/heard of it before. Audible down to 200+ hz is crazy low for a high frequency driver. The reviews are a mile long and ratings a mile high. I will definitely consider implementing a couple of Heil AMT's, also a great conversation piece to boot. Do they really sound that good? Man this is intriguing.
Greg, not patronizing, I'm just starting out and appreciate any tips or explanations. I want to build a two way system, the ER18MTM kit looks very good. This was what I was thinking of originally.
That's good advice StevieG, actually, I think I may have a few projects ahead of me the more I look into this, and I don't mind spending a few bucks since it's for a good cause 🙂 Dave, those are some far out speaker designs man...the metronome, where is the tweeter? I've seen some designs with what seems to be tweeter-less. How is this possible?
Greg, not patronizing, I'm just starting out and appreciate any tips or explanations. I want to build a two way system, the ER18MTM kit looks very good. This was what I was thinking of originally.
That's good advice StevieG, actually, I think I may have a few projects ahead of me the more I look into this, and I don't mind spending a few bucks since it's for a good cause 🙂 Dave, those are some far out speaker designs man...the metronome, where is the tweeter? I've seen some designs with what seems to be tweeter-less. How is this possible?
The original AMT is an amazing driver. The factory used them as low as 800 hz, we liked to XO them a bit higher.
dave
I just made another speaker with the AMT - an all dipole FAST with a dual 8in driver Z-baffle.
More info here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/271011-rockin-kazba-dipole-k-aperture-z-baffle-dipole-11.html#post4297224
Freq response and 700Hz LR4 XO:
You hear the Heil AMT with the dual RS225-8 dipole bass here:
Vocals:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/attachments/full-range/478181d1429377158-rockin-kazba-dipole-k-aperture-z-baffle-dipole-amt-rs225-kazba-nj.asc
Drum solo:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/attachments/full-range/478183d1429377844-rockin-kazba-dipole-k-aperture-z-baffle-dipole-kazba-rs225-amt-drums.asc
Change .asc to .mp3 to listen
Vocals:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/attachments/full-range/478181d1429377158-rockin-kazba-dipole-k-aperture-z-baffle-dipole-amt-rs225-kazba-nj.asc
Drum solo:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/attachments/full-range/478183d1429377844-rockin-kazba-dipole-k-aperture-z-baffle-dipole-kazba-rs225-amt-drums.asc
Change .asc to .mp3 to listen
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I am with stevieg #10 on this. I have the Monacor RBT 95 crossed over at about 9k, with a Monacor msh 115 running full range. Within it's inherent limitations,(none of which are to do with the tweeter) it sounds fabulous.
My current set up is CSS FR125 in a bass reflex box with a front slotted port, these roll off around 10k so I use aurum cantus G2 ribbons above. In my small room they are flat from 31hz to 80hz but 15db down from 80hz up. I use a sub set around 80hz but not too in my face. This is the best sound ever after building and owning 200hz tracrtix horns, raal 140-15D and 15" eminence alpha woofers tri-amped. I have Fostex BLH a bit shouty, had Lowther Fidelio, poor bass from EX3. Also other set ups. I know the FR125 is no longer available but tbh the WR125 has a very similar response.
Does this mean that you have your subs set at +15dB relative to your main speakers.
Totally agree here. I use the hornloaded Fountek neoCD3.5H and find it wonderful above 5k.
Mivoc have a similar looking ribbon which can be found at lautsprecher.de website.
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