Hello everyone, I need your help with some decisions about a pub I'm thinking about opening and I'm trying to make the best decisions according to my limited budget.
Mind you this will be a small space, about 650 sq ft (60 sq meters for us Europeans) and that the used market for PA equipment in Europe is quite limited.
My signal chain will be laptop<DJ controller<dsp/mixer<amp<speakers
I'm starting from the bottom up.
-Speakers will be something diy like the Redcatt Kellerkind,96 db efficiency,12 inch woofer (130€ per speaker) (https://oaudio.de/?a=24802&lang=eng) .I can build my own speakers.
-Amp will be something like a Crown XLS 1502 for the two speakers and I'll add another 1502 for a sub later (440€). Down the road I might add 2 more speakers like the ones I mentioned.
-Dsp will be a t.racks DSP 4x4 mini or a Behringer mixer (120€)
-DJ controller will be something like a Numark Mixtrack Platinum FX (270€)
Do you have any better suggestions for the prices?I'm not looking for the best hifi result, just something that will be above average from the rest of the shops here (cheap amps from the 80's,bad speaker placement,clipping at moderate levels, multiple underpowered/cheap speakers etc).
Given the size of the shop is quite small,I don't think I'll need an overkill of speakers/amps. Am I wrong?
I will be putting everything together by myself so if I'm missing something please feel free to correct me.
Thank you in advance!
Mind you this will be a small space, about 650 sq ft (60 sq meters for us Europeans) and that the used market for PA equipment in Europe is quite limited.
My signal chain will be laptop<DJ controller<dsp/mixer<amp<speakers
I'm starting from the bottom up.
-Speakers will be something diy like the Redcatt Kellerkind,96 db efficiency,12 inch woofer (130€ per speaker) (https://oaudio.de/?a=24802&lang=eng) .I can build my own speakers.
-Amp will be something like a Crown XLS 1502 for the two speakers and I'll add another 1502 for a sub later (440€). Down the road I might add 2 more speakers like the ones I mentioned.
-Dsp will be a t.racks DSP 4x4 mini or a Behringer mixer (120€)
-DJ controller will be something like a Numark Mixtrack Platinum FX (270€)
Do you have any better suggestions for the prices?I'm not looking for the best hifi result, just something that will be above average from the rest of the shops here (cheap amps from the 80's,bad speaker placement,clipping at moderate levels, multiple underpowered/cheap speakers etc).
Given the size of the shop is quite small,I don't think I'll need an overkill of speakers/amps. Am I wrong?
I will be putting everything together by myself so if I'm missing something please feel free to correct me.
Thank you in advance!
Start with a sub even if it's a 12" or 15" and consider using 8+1" tops, unless you have really tall ceilings 12" boxes can actually get in the way a bit in a room that size, you want to maximize space for customers of course. And also have some DSP from the get go, if there is enough protection in place that the sound never distorts you're ahead of most places.
What is the budget? What kind of SPL do you need? Is reproduced music the primary factor to draw people into the venue, or is music more of a background function? Will you have live music (i.e. is latency a possible issue)?
First of all thank you both for your time!
Second,I'm trying to find some DIY PA speakers to choose but there are only a few available plans in the places I looked. If you have any sites in mind that have diy pa speakers,please share with me!
@conanski
The second proven design I found was this (https://celestion.com/blog/build-this-compact-10-two-way-pa-speaker-design/).
There are also these speakers at around 8 inches but I don't know anything about them (https://oaudio.de/Basic-PA-81-Bausatz_2).
The ceilings won't be more than 3-4 meters high and I'll make sure to budget a sub in. Maybe something like this? https://oaudio.de/Horizon-Infra-Modul_1
@Markw4
My budget would be around 250-300 per speaker. I would be hosting dj's so I somewhat need to go loud if nessecary. Not deafening loud, but surely more than background. I figured something that could go over 50 patrons talking. More than a pub, less than club I'm thinking. Will these be a better choice than the diy ones? (https://www.thomann.de/gr/jbl_jrx_212.htm)
Second,I'm trying to find some DIY PA speakers to choose but there are only a few available plans in the places I looked. If you have any sites in mind that have diy pa speakers,please share with me!
@conanski
The second proven design I found was this (https://celestion.com/blog/build-this-compact-10-two-way-pa-speaker-design/).
There are also these speakers at around 8 inches but I don't know anything about them (https://oaudio.de/Basic-PA-81-Bausatz_2).
The ceilings won't be more than 3-4 meters high and I'll make sure to budget a sub in. Maybe something like this? https://oaudio.de/Horizon-Infra-Modul_1
@Markw4
My budget would be around 250-300 per speaker. I would be hosting dj's so I somewhat need to go loud if nessecary. Not deafening loud, but surely more than background. I figured something that could go over 50 patrons talking. More than a pub, less than club I'm thinking. Will these be a better choice than the diy ones? (https://www.thomann.de/gr/jbl_jrx_212.htm)
It would be helpful if you could provide more information about what you need. Where are you planning to put the speakers, 2-speakers in two corners? How much bass do you need? Down to 40Hz for bass guitar? Down lower for church organ or video game effects? What SPL do you do you need, 80dBSPL, 120dBSPL?
Again, is the sound system the main feature, or only for background?
Regarding speakers, do you already have wood and woodworking equipment? Or is the budget for a whole speaker not just the drivers? How about the overall sound system budget? Are you spending money in the right places? Usually its better to have better drivers in better boxes to start with rather than to assume you can rely primarily on DSP.
Regarding your stated budget, its not much more than a fairly good set of video game computer speakers. Hardly into real hi-fi territory. Are you sure you have enough funding to make a reasonable go at this?
Again, is the sound system the main feature, or only for background?
Regarding speakers, do you already have wood and woodworking equipment? Or is the budget for a whole speaker not just the drivers? How about the overall sound system budget? Are you spending money in the right places? Usually its better to have better drivers in better boxes to start with rather than to assume you can rely primarily on DSP.
Regarding your stated budget, its not much more than a fairly good set of video game computer speakers. Hardly into real hi-fi territory. Are you sure you have enough funding to make a reasonable go at this?
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@Markw4 Ok, I' ll describe it as best as I can.Think of it as a bar that has guest dj's. It's quite usual here in Greece! It's not concert level loud, but I'm guessing 100-105dbs at max.
I'm planning to start with a couple high efficiency drivers, two speakers, opposite corners of the room (square room) and then if needed I can add one or two extra in the other corners. The speakers that I've attached are above 96 dbs in efficiency so I don't think it's unreasonable that I can go to 100dbs if needed. I'm guessing I won't need more than 300watts per speaker.
I do have tools and wood, I forgot to mention it, so 250-300 only for drivers and the crossover parts. The dsp will only be for room correction or slight adjustments.
The music will be rock and hiphop so I think if I can go down to solid 45hz I'm ok.I won't go chasing 30s.
I've seen bars here having 4 of these (https://audiophony.com/en/product/nova-10a/) and they go obnoxiously loud for small spaces. Do you think I need something more powerful? Should I look for for something pre-made or should I stick with DIY?
I'm planning to start with a couple high efficiency drivers, two speakers, opposite corners of the room (square room) and then if needed I can add one or two extra in the other corners. The speakers that I've attached are above 96 dbs in efficiency so I don't think it's unreasonable that I can go to 100dbs if needed. I'm guessing I won't need more than 300watts per speaker.
I do have tools and wood, I forgot to mention it, so 250-300 only for drivers and the crossover parts. The dsp will only be for room correction or slight adjustments.
The music will be rock and hiphop so I think if I can go down to solid 45hz I'm ok.I won't go chasing 30s.
I've seen bars here having 4 of these (https://audiophony.com/en/product/nova-10a/) and they go obnoxiously loud for small spaces. Do you think I need something more powerful? Should I look for for something pre-made or should I stick with DIY?
Okay. Given you could buy a pair of cheap finished PA speakers (or possibly better used ones) for less than your driver budget, seems like it should be doable. However, when you are starting a new business, there are a lot of details to attend to. Building custom speakers for a club is not something people usually do. It takes time and effort which could be expended elsewhere. Once you start making some money then you could consider upgrading the PA System if you think it will help grow the business more. That would be my gut feeling on the matter.
Maybe other people can chime in with some different opinions.
Maybe other people can chime in with some different opinions.
I see what you 're saying and I thought about it. I assumed that a pair of cheap speakers would be equivalent to much better factory ones simply just looking at the housings (mdf vs cheap ABS etc). I can go higher in the speaker budget, but I'm not looking at Faital budget, it would be an overkill for such a small space and my demands.
I figured that instead of building 2 speakers around 200 euros ,plus a couple of crowns (400+400) maybe I should be looking for powered speakers and ditch the amp entirely. Something like the Yamaha BRD10 or some Alto 410s and go straight to the mixer.
Is this a better idea?Are there better diy plans that I'm missing?
I found these too with better drivers :
https://www.lautsprechershop.de/pa/d2544_d10_en.htm
https://www.lautsprechershop.de/hifi/varde_en.htm
https://www.lautsprechershop.de/hifi/susa_top_en.htm
https://www.lautsprechershop.de/hifi/voice_horn_en.htm
I won't start my endeavor for a couple months since I'm still budgeting for this, so I have a lot of time to build them
I figured that instead of building 2 speakers around 200 euros ,plus a couple of crowns (400+400) maybe I should be looking for powered speakers and ditch the amp entirely. Something like the Yamaha BRD10 or some Alto 410s and go straight to the mixer.
Is this a better idea?Are there better diy plans that I'm missing?
I found these too with better drivers :
https://www.lautsprechershop.de/pa/d2544_d10_en.htm
https://www.lautsprechershop.de/hifi/varde_en.htm
https://www.lautsprechershop.de/hifi/susa_top_en.htm
https://www.lautsprechershop.de/hifi/voice_horn_en.htm
I won't start my endeavor for a couple months since I'm still budgeting for this, so I have a lot of time to build them
Modern powered PA speakers are very good, no you will not match the overall performance and sound quality with a basic DIY build.. in fact you won't even get close. Beating thier performance would require high quality drivers and advanced tuning experience.. which takes lots of time and $$.. things you may not have to spare.
The Alto TS4 series are the cheapest PA speaker that might be considered to have acceptable SQ and performance in the pro audio community, the Yamaha DBR series are better and there is a whole world of way better speakers at higher price points
Thank for your answers!
I figured the same so I'll go with powered speakers like the DBR's and build from there.I will soon add a subwoofer to take of the load from 100hz down so they perform even better.
Thanks for all the help!!!
I figured the same so I'll go with powered speakers like the DBR's and build from there.I will soon add a subwoofer to take of the load from 100hz down so they perform even better.
Thanks for all the help!!!
side bar thought
can you provide a layout of the room?
sometimes you need to consider other factors like whether or not you need to keep high SPL away from the bar so orders can be heard.
more to the point before making a speaker choice based on budget alone take a moment to analyze your needs better it may require looking at speakers with controlled directivity to create a "hot zone"
can you provide a layout of the room?
sometimes you need to consider other factors like whether or not you need to keep high SPL away from the bar so orders can be heard.
more to the point before making a speaker choice based on budget alone take a moment to analyze your needs better it may require looking at speakers with controlled directivity to create a "hot zone"
Agree. Though you might surpass commercial offerings with a subwoofer in terms of output per $$, if it is not a problem that the dimensions are large relative to its output.
It is also true that the lower cost PA cabs use DSP to try to overcome the shortcomings of cheap and nasty drivers.
You need to think about the role of music in your pub. You can drink beers everywhere, but a friendly place with its regulars is more difficult to build.
Music can be background (noise) or have attractive role for your customers (theme evenings, karaoke, connection to a TV for sports...).
Determine areas with different sound levels. A lower volume at the checkout will save you from shooting to collect payments.
You may get better answers with theses informations.
Cheers 🍺
Music can be background (noise) or have attractive role for your customers (theme evenings, karaoke, connection to a TV for sports...).
Determine areas with different sound levels. A lower volume at the checkout will save you from shooting to collect payments.
You may get better answers with theses informations.
Cheers 🍺
Unfortunately, Nick Baur died recently, Oaudio is closed. If you want to build the "Kellerkind" speakers, you can still buy the set at the Lautsprechershop but probably not for very long anymore.