I know this is a pretty broad question. I didnt really find the answers I was hoping for in my searches.
In a commercial speaker youre paying for the drivers, cabinet, xover components, design, marketing, etc...
How much of it is actually the drivers? Do commercial manufacturers like B&W have a big advantage with the drivers they are using or are they like $25 drivers we can get from PartsExpress with great implementation in thier cabinets?
The drivers I am considering for my project are Vifa tweeters and Tang Band woofers. With proper implementaion are these likely to leave me satisfied? My reference set of speakers are my $400 Paradigm Phantoms.
In a commercial speaker youre paying for the drivers, cabinet, xover components, design, marketing, etc...
How much of it is actually the drivers? Do commercial manufacturers like B&W have a big advantage with the drivers they are using or are they like $25 drivers we can get from PartsExpress with great implementation in thier cabinets?
The drivers I am considering for my project are Vifa tweeters and Tang Band woofers. With proper implementaion are these likely to leave me satisfied? My reference set of speakers are my $400 Paradigm Phantoms.
It's a dirty "insiders" secret, but most diy'ers use much better drivers than most speaker companies do, with the exception of a couple of very expensive brands ($30,000 on up). Actually, it's the implementation and design that make a big difference.
Most of the commercial brand's pricing is determined by many other factors than the cost of the raw componets.
Remember, this is secret information and now that you're included among the "Select" you must take the "Vow of Silence". The unenlightened masses are not prepared to accept this Audio Truth and must be spared the Agony of Illumination!
Best Regards,
TerryO
Most of the commercial brand's pricing is determined by many other factors than the cost of the raw componets.
Remember, this is secret information and now that you're included among the "Select" you must take the "Vow of Silence". The unenlightened masses are not prepared to accept this Audio Truth and must be spared the Agony of Illumination!
Best Regards,
TerryO
I can't speak for all companies, but I have taken apart quite a few commercial designs to see what drivers are inside them. I would disagree with the above to say that many good brands use very good drivers, as good or better than many used by Diyers. The brand I'm most familiar with is JM Labs (Focal). The Electra line, while expensive, uses very expensive drivers. They aren't 30,000 dollars for the electra line either. The 2500 dollar monitor uses roughly 400 dollars in drivers. Figure another 100 dollars for crossover in those designs.
Another company that shocked me with the drivers they used was M&K. To say they were far lower in quality than I had expected for their exulted reputation and prices is an understatement. They used custom Vifa and Peerless drivers which would cost the DIYer no more than say 20 dollars a driver, and probably cost them a third that. I have never liked M&K speakers, but with so many people loving them, I would say that is a good case in point of implementation.
As for how the DIY speaker compares, I think that many people building their own speakers underestimate the difficulty in properly integrating drivers. It's not a trivial task, and I don't blame manufacturers for charging some of what they do to pay for that R&D. I don't happen to think their are very many good diy designs out there. Many seem more of an exercise in complexity than good design. When I design a crossover it usually requires many iterations before I get what I think is good. Thats just the crossover. Cabinet design requires carefully considering the distance between drivers and orientation on the cabinet, as well as general cabinet profile, which all have an impact on the sound of the speaker. A manufacturer needs to make many versions and make careful analysis to be sure of what they are selling. While not all companies do this, I have found that many companies we like to make fun of for their popularity and price, actually make a really good speaker for that much money. Infinity and Polk are two companies which come to mind, while not the very best, their large R&D departments sure have allowed some very good performing speakers for their respective prices. The drivers in both of those are custom to their application and need, but would be comparable to low/mid priced drivers (Polk used to use peerless drivers). JBL uses their own drivers which are often of very good quality for the price of the speaker, with some extreme quality drivers in their top designs. I would consider them among the best, but often are simply way too expensive, and arguably unnecessary (Does the dual 15" aquaplas woofers in the everest really perform better than a somewhat more basic design from B&C).
The last speaker I finished used two Mpyre Audio 6M midbass drivers, a Focal 6W as midrange, and a Focal TC120Td5 tweeter. I used a passive crossover of my design with 2nd order BW filters. I spent months just working on the crossover, and still was limited by my measuring ability and parts budget (I could only test so many designs). In the end these speakers had a retail value (based on parts alone) in excess of 2000 dollars. I would guess that a manufactured version of this would easily cost in excess of 5000 dollars, if not double that.
Another company that shocked me with the drivers they used was M&K. To say they were far lower in quality than I had expected for their exulted reputation and prices is an understatement. They used custom Vifa and Peerless drivers which would cost the DIYer no more than say 20 dollars a driver, and probably cost them a third that. I have never liked M&K speakers, but with so many people loving them, I would say that is a good case in point of implementation.
As for how the DIY speaker compares, I think that many people building their own speakers underestimate the difficulty in properly integrating drivers. It's not a trivial task, and I don't blame manufacturers for charging some of what they do to pay for that R&D. I don't happen to think their are very many good diy designs out there. Many seem more of an exercise in complexity than good design. When I design a crossover it usually requires many iterations before I get what I think is good. Thats just the crossover. Cabinet design requires carefully considering the distance between drivers and orientation on the cabinet, as well as general cabinet profile, which all have an impact on the sound of the speaker. A manufacturer needs to make many versions and make careful analysis to be sure of what they are selling. While not all companies do this, I have found that many companies we like to make fun of for their popularity and price, actually make a really good speaker for that much money. Infinity and Polk are two companies which come to mind, while not the very best, their large R&D departments sure have allowed some very good performing speakers for their respective prices. The drivers in both of those are custom to their application and need, but would be comparable to low/mid priced drivers (Polk used to use peerless drivers). JBL uses their own drivers which are often of very good quality for the price of the speaker, with some extreme quality drivers in their top designs. I would consider them among the best, but often are simply way too expensive, and arguably unnecessary (Does the dual 15" aquaplas woofers in the everest really perform better than a somewhat more basic design from B&C).
The last speaker I finished used two Mpyre Audio 6M midbass drivers, a Focal 6W as midrange, and a Focal TC120Td5 tweeter. I used a passive crossover of my design with 2nd order BW filters. I spent months just working on the crossover, and still was limited by my measuring ability and parts budget (I could only test so many designs). In the end these speakers had a retail value (based on parts alone) in excess of 2000 dollars. I would guess that a manufactured version of this would easily cost in excess of 5000 dollars, if not double that.
The really big companies have economies of scale that makes a custom driver very feasible & much less expensive than a comparable driver a diyer would buy one at a time.
dave
dave
planet10 said:
Dave,
I agree that "some" really big companies actually do as you say. Companies like JBL and Microsoft will use a top designer to design their drivers. In fact, our own Dan Wiggins has designed a half dozen or more of JBL's drivers and has been under contract with Microsoft for 4 or 5 years now.
😀
OTOH, "the Most Respected Name in Audio" uses the cheapest drivers available and often will actually get custom design work done if they can't find a driver that's cheap enough.
It's also interesting that some small companies like the (late) RAW Acoustic and Exodus Audio will use very high grade or even SOTA custom drivers in their offerings at what, in the general Audiophile world, would be considered very reasonable prices.
😀
I think that Bob Stout of the old Bass List used to have a listing of the drivers that manufacturers used in their various speaker models. Very few used anything approaching the top of the line drivers from the better driver companies.
Best Regards,
TerryO
i started off with the PMC IB1,$200 total for the mid and hi for both speakers,the list price on these are $11,000.
pedroskova said:
Infinity, Revel, & JBL can all be lumped together, as they largely share driver R & D, and certainly use Harman group muscle to get volume efficiencies.
dave
The biggest differences between diy'ers and commercial products are 3 fold:
1) Labour cost - a diy'er is cheaper in labour than even the most lowly paid worker in the entire world. If a diy'er would include the labour cost of designing and building their speakers, I bet that most diy speakers would be far more expensive than a comparable commercial product.
2) Cost to market - commercial companies need to get what they make sold, so they have produce commercials or have other marketing costs involved or they'd be out of business quick.
3) Transport cost - speakers are generally big and heavy compared to other products in mass and size for the same overhead, meaning it costs you a great deal of money to sell the same product countrywide and multible orders more worldwide.
Off course there are idealistic companies that basically are mass producing diy'ers for which profit margins are less important and that don't have to answer to shareholders for lack of profit at the end of the day.
1) Labour cost - a diy'er is cheaper in labour than even the most lowly paid worker in the entire world. If a diy'er would include the labour cost of designing and building their speakers, I bet that most diy speakers would be far more expensive than a comparable commercial product.
2) Cost to market - commercial companies need to get what they make sold, so they have produce commercials or have other marketing costs involved or they'd be out of business quick.
3) Transport cost - speakers are generally big and heavy compared to other products in mass and size for the same overhead, meaning it costs you a great deal of money to sell the same product countrywide and multible orders more worldwide.
Off course there are idealistic companies that basically are mass producing diy'ers for which profit margins are less important and that don't have to answer to shareholders for lack of profit at the end of the day.
My understanding is that costs of raw materials are generally 5 to 10 times less then the retail price. Depending on company, etc.
However, the biggest advantage with DIY (I think), is not the quality of components, but the fun one has designing, building, testing, discussing and enjoying something of your own creation, as they say "priceless".
However, the biggest advantage with DIY (I think), is not the quality of components, but the fun one has designing, building, testing, discussing and enjoying something of your own creation, as they say "priceless".
The commercial budget speakers often looks better than diy speakers at the same price, B&W 600 series comes to mind.
Doing DIY to save money is nonesense, If you want cheap speakers for none critical area , consider buying a commercial model.
What makes DIY speakers really worthwhile is when you are building a speaker composed of mid and high end priced parts, That is when the saving starts. Just imagine building the L18/tbfc from zaph's, A similarly designed speaker using similar drivers would easily cost more than $1500-, if it were to come from a high end company.
Doing DIY subs also saves you tremendous amount of money, And I think this is the area where the savings is the greatest compared to commercial ones. Imagine , you buy 2 12" high end DIY sub driver for $350- add shipping ( peerless comes to my mind) and a plate amp for $350- add shipping. Put it in a DIY overkill optimizes box, The cost would be less than $1,000- total, NOw , you can imagine that this sub would be big and heavy, But the performance is breath taking. If this kind of sub would come from a high end brand this would easily cost more than $3,000- . YOu can then comfortably think you've save yourself $2,000- and that's alot. Eventhough you just spent close to a thousand.
Doing DIY to save money is nonesense, If you want cheap speakers for none critical area , consider buying a commercial model.
What makes DIY speakers really worthwhile is when you are building a speaker composed of mid and high end priced parts, That is when the saving starts. Just imagine building the L18/tbfc from zaph's, A similarly designed speaker using similar drivers would easily cost more than $1500-, if it were to come from a high end company.
Doing DIY subs also saves you tremendous amount of money, And I think this is the area where the savings is the greatest compared to commercial ones. Imagine , you buy 2 12" high end DIY sub driver for $350- add shipping ( peerless comes to my mind) and a plate amp for $350- add shipping. Put it in a DIY overkill optimizes box, The cost would be less than $1,000- total, NOw , you can imagine that this sub would be big and heavy, But the performance is breath taking. If this kind of sub would come from a high end brand this would easily cost more than $3,000- . YOu can then comfortably think you've save yourself $2,000- and that's alot. Eventhough you just spent close to a thousand.
Thanks for the good replies. Im finally getting the information I have been looking for.
Now I have the task of picking the right drivers for me.
Now I have the task of picking the right drivers for me.
DIY speakers always sound better. Here's a tale from my annals of applied psychology.
Long ago, local DOT asked me to query those living adjacent to highways about what they did to ameliorate highway noise. To make a long story short, there's only one kind of fence that ever "works": the one you make yourself.
I have an old, old AR-1w (any offers?). That's one of the precious few examples of somebody (Vilchur) creating something quite special in a regular driver (previously inconceivably super low resonance, 12 Hz, vast throw, and cone made of masonite board). He also used what was considered cream of the crop upper driver - the famous Bell-Labs-Altec pancake driver... for those who say manufacturers, on the odd occasion, will use something pricey inside. Later, he pretty much led the pack with dome middle and upper drivers.
And on the third hand, a lot of manufacturers know better than to throw money at things that can't heard, make no material difference, or are bad. Cast baskets, likely fall in one of those categories. Big magnets, for example, can cut the illusionary bass rumble and those guys with the special speaker wires wouldn't know the difference.
Long ago, local DOT asked me to query those living adjacent to highways about what they did to ameliorate highway noise. To make a long story short, there's only one kind of fence that ever "works": the one you make yourself.
I have an old, old AR-1w (any offers?). That's one of the precious few examples of somebody (Vilchur) creating something quite special in a regular driver (previously inconceivably super low resonance, 12 Hz, vast throw, and cone made of masonite board). He also used what was considered cream of the crop upper driver - the famous Bell-Labs-Altec pancake driver... for those who say manufacturers, on the odd occasion, will use something pricey inside. Later, he pretty much led the pack with dome middle and upper drivers.
And on the third hand, a lot of manufacturers know better than to throw money at things that can't heard, make no material difference, or are bad. Cast baskets, likely fall in one of those categories. Big magnets, for example, can cut the illusionary bass rumble and those guys with the special speaker wires wouldn't know the difference.
I'm just finishing up a pair of BIBs form Zilla's site. I used a pair of drivers from MCM electronics that cost about $14.00 each. I would be hard pressed to find a pair of ready-made speakers that sound better for the same price. The wood for the enclosures was less than $30.00. So... round it up to $50 for some awesome speakers; not in any store in which I have shopped.
I'm all for the DIY avenue. With the incredibly talented, knowledgeable, and helpful folks on this forum, DIY is the way to go for me.
(P.S. I will be a subscriber soon 🙂 )
I'm all for the DIY avenue. With the incredibly talented, knowledgeable, and helpful folks on this forum, DIY is the way to go for me.
(P.S. I will be a subscriber soon 🙂 )
pedroskova said:
on my factory walkabouts around China, i stumbled across Infinities driver supplier.
btw, what is a ceramic driver?!
5-10 times the price of used materials
In post number ten it is mentioned, that the cost of materials for the typical commercial speaker is somewhere in between 1/5 - 1/10 of the retail-price.
Two reasons that makes this true are, that both the distributor and the retailer need to make profits too.
Often the producing company will earn far less per speaker then the distributor and the retailer does (and need to do).
In post number ten it is mentioned, that the cost of materials for the typical commercial speaker is somewhere in between 1/5 - 1/10 of the retail-price.
Two reasons that makes this true are, that both the distributor and the retailer need to make profits too.
Often the producing company will earn far less per speaker then the distributor and the retailer does (and need to do).
WRONG:marchel said:
1) Have a look at (anything) Shinobiwan has built.
2) Saving money with DIY? Wrong again, case in point a set of Seas P17RCY & 27TFFC drivers from Zalytron to build a set of bookshelfs for my son. They were AWESOME! Cost of drivers / crossovers / cabinets (7/8"Oak Ply) was under $225. Nothing at twice that price commercially even comes close.
Ron
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