Ever since I replaced my AN Classic 10 full range speakers several months ago with a pair of Piccolos I have been enjoying a major improvement in virtually every aspect of listening to both classical music and opera.
One of the best improvements is the soundstage depth and the placement of instruments in it that I didn’t have before. However, the soundstage width still seems to be limited to the distance between the two speakers and the depth limited to the wall several feet behind them.
While I appreciate the big improvement I would still like a wider and deeper sound stage, particularly for the type of music I play.
I’m aware that open baffle speakers could potentially give me what I want, but is there any way to open up the soundstage width and depth beyond the speakers themselves still using conventional boxed speakers?
One of the best improvements is the soundstage depth and the placement of instruments in it that I didn’t have before. However, the soundstage width still seems to be limited to the distance between the two speakers and the depth limited to the wall several feet behind them.
While I appreciate the big improvement I would still like a wider and deeper sound stage, particularly for the type of music I play.
I’m aware that open baffle speakers could potentially give me what I want, but is there any way to open up the soundstage width and depth beyond the speakers themselves still using conventional boxed speakers?
Add a rear or top firing tweeter. Simple tweeter, maybe 1/2 inch or 3/4 inch with 1 to 2uF in series. Point it to the wall behind or the ceiling above.
Oon
Oon
Interesting idea. The Piccolos already have an excellent tweeter, the SB29RDNC, which is one of the main reasons I like them so much. The high end is luscious.
So I wouldn't want to add anything that didn't sound as good. They are $67 each, so it would cost about $150 to add them when you include shipping. Not out of the question if I could be fairly certain that the difference would be significant and not just a small change.
I know it's a tough question, but how much more soundstage do you think they would add?
And how would I connect them to the current tweeters?
So I wouldn't want to add anything that didn't sound as good. They are $67 each, so it would cost about $150 to add them when you include shipping. Not out of the question if I could be fairly certain that the difference would be significant and not just a small change.
I know it's a tough question, but how much more soundstage do you think they would add?
And how would I connect them to the current tweeters?
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The idea with the rear firing might be working:
you will add room reflection, which might result in a 'bigger sound stage'.
But this reflection could be a problem the same time:
you change the tonal energy.
The additional tweeter might (will) cause phase-issues and timing issues.
This will result in a worsened stereo localization.
For a rear firing tweeter you can usually use a quite cheap one. especially for testing and to find out, if you like the effect.
Before trying a rear firing tweeter, I would try to play around with the position of the speakers in your room.
The side wall reflections have a big impact. The speakers should have a symmetrical distance to the referring side walls. You can also play around with the size of the stereo-triangle.
you will add room reflection, which might result in a 'bigger sound stage'.
But this reflection could be a problem the same time:
you change the tonal energy.
The additional tweeter might (will) cause phase-issues and timing issues.
This will result in a worsened stereo localization.
For a rear firing tweeter you can usually use a quite cheap one. especially for testing and to find out, if you like the effect.
Before trying a rear firing tweeter, I would try to play around with the position of the speakers in your room.
The side wall reflections have a big impact. The speakers should have a symmetrical distance to the referring side walls. You can also play around with the size of the stereo-triangle.
Would it be valid to compare current setup to headphones, if you like the headphones soundstage more you should have less reflections in the room? If you like the speakers soundstage more but not quite enough then you should increase reflections somehow?
Anyway, it should be matter of controlling the directivity, the interaction between room and the speakers shouldn't it? You could try listening in near field or far field, the other you now do. Play with the toe in, try speakers against the front-wall. I mean you could try to zone in what has to be done to improve the soundstage. It might be matter of positioning the speakers right, or does the speakers need to be changed or room treated for "better" interaction with the room.
I don't know how to better soundstage, but I would try to find out like so. One thing is for sure, the piccolo would have a lot wider dispersion on the high mids and treble than the AN10 as bigger transducer and wider baffle. This would indicate you like narrower dispersion, less room interaction.
Anyway, it should be matter of controlling the directivity, the interaction between room and the speakers shouldn't it? You could try listening in near field or far field, the other you now do. Play with the toe in, try speakers against the front-wall. I mean you could try to zone in what has to be done to improve the soundstage. It might be matter of positioning the speakers right, or does the speakers need to be changed or room treated for "better" interaction with the room.
I don't know how to better soundstage, but I would try to find out like so. One thing is for sure, the piccolo would have a lot wider dispersion on the high mids and treble than the AN10 as bigger transducer and wider baffle. This would indicate you like narrower dispersion, less room interaction.
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Try to place them against longer room wall, plus slight toe-out 5-10 deg. Speakers and listener should form equal-sided triangle. Try to add acoustic absorption or dispersion on wall behind listening position.
You can widen or deepen the image but only to a limited degree using reflections and there is a trade off with image precision. Room Reflections & Human Adaptation for Small Room Acoustics | Audioholics
Keep your speakers and yourself at least one meter from any wall, rear or side...more is better. It is also VERY dependent on the quality and engineering of the music source itself, whether it be vinyl, CD, or whatever. Some recordings have very good spatial qualities, and some simply do not.
Mike
Mike
For the rear firing tweeter idea, look at this thread: Ambience tweeters using small BMR drivers
A bit more elaborate than rear firing tweeters and with adjustable timing.
Personally I use absorption on first reflection points and have added ambience speakers (arriving at LP from lateral angles) to make up for the energy I stole.
This is adjustable to taste, it makes the recording determine the size of the stage/imaging, going beyond speaker boundaries when it's in the recording. Small when it's not recorded like that.
Real wall reflections can also widen the stage/imaging but cause more of a "same sauce on every song" effect i.m.h.o.
A bit more elaborate than rear firing tweeters and with adjustable timing.
Personally I use absorption on first reflection points and have added ambience speakers (arriving at LP from lateral angles) to make up for the energy I stole.
This is adjustable to taste, it makes the recording determine the size of the stage/imaging, going beyond speaker boundaries when it's in the recording. Small when it's not recorded like that.
Real wall reflections can also widen the stage/imaging but cause more of a "same sauce on every song" effect i.m.h.o.
Adding an extra tweeter to any speaker would, at the very least, require changes to the crossover without considering its effects on the design itself. In the case of a top-notch design like the late Mr Bagby's, I really wouldn't do it.
How and why sound can appear to come from outside the speakers from a stereo recording is beyond me, but would depend on how the music has been recorded and produced, as well as your system and room.
I've sometimes experienced a 'wide sound stage' on some recordings, where sound indeed seems to appear from outside the 'listening triangle'. It's not like being in a concert hall where the sound bounces around the walls and the ceiling and you hear that; RCA 'Living Stereo' and Mercury 'Living Presence' re-issues of 50s and 60s releases sometimes have that effect, no idea how or why.
The 'wide sound' doesn't seem to rely on the speakers, at least with what we're running. For example, there's a Nick Mason (Pink Floyd drummer) on which he's recorded some of his amazing classic racing car collection racing around Silverstone. You hear the music - or racket, depending on your point of view - in the distance, getting louder, etc but it really does seem to start and finish from outside whichever speakers are connected.
All our speakers have dome tweeters and are two way or MTM, if that's relevant.
Geoff
How and why sound can appear to come from outside the speakers from a stereo recording is beyond me, but would depend on how the music has been recorded and produced, as well as your system and room.
I've sometimes experienced a 'wide sound stage' on some recordings, where sound indeed seems to appear from outside the 'listening triangle'. It's not like being in a concert hall where the sound bounces around the walls and the ceiling and you hear that; RCA 'Living Stereo' and Mercury 'Living Presence' re-issues of 50s and 60s releases sometimes have that effect, no idea how or why.
The 'wide sound' doesn't seem to rely on the speakers, at least with what we're running. For example, there's a Nick Mason (Pink Floyd drummer) on which he's recorded some of his amazing classic racing car collection racing around Silverstone. You hear the music - or racket, depending on your point of view - in the distance, getting louder, etc but it really does seem to start and finish from outside whichever speakers are connected.
All our speakers have dome tweeters and are two way or MTM, if that's relevant.
Geoff
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In a German language review of the JBL 708P, the missing spacial depth was criticized, which most possibly stems from the controlled directivity approach that reduces early reflections with high directivity, we all know about the advantages. But it does reduce apparent source width. One solution for a finished speaker, "after the fact", was given in this review, to take advantage of the audible bands that Jens Blauert identified as responsible for spacial resolution. So it seems to be a common praxis to tune this bands to increase spaciality. Only found the German language wikipedia Blauertsche Bander – Wikipedia and no tutorials on the topic, there is obviously some AES papers based on Blauert, so maybe you can find more instructions how to use this.
Hang a comforter (thick, puffy blanket) from the back wall between the speakers. I suppose ordinary heavy window drapes would work - you could open and close them if you used a standard hanging rail.
The only way I know to make the stage seem wider is through Polk's SDA or the electrical equivalent of that particular tom foolery. I have one Madonna album where the sound appears to come from the walls of the room. I had some box that did it as an analog processor (Carver Sonic Hologram Generator) which quickly sold on ebay.
If you had a second set of speakers, you could set two side by side and run one on each side out of phase but sourced from the opposite channel. That would widen things, but it's an illusion that most folks tire of; same effect on everything, highly sweet spot dependent, not to mention expensive and cumbersome to implement. What happens when the bass is monaural? You'd have to high pass just the spatial pair - perhaps a fun rainy day experiment if you happen to have two pairs of smaller speakers.
I cant think of anything else beyond that already mentioned.
The only way I know to make the stage seem wider is through Polk's SDA or the electrical equivalent of that particular tom foolery. I have one Madonna album where the sound appears to come from the walls of the room. I had some box that did it as an analog processor (Carver Sonic Hologram Generator) which quickly sold on ebay.
If you had a second set of speakers, you could set two side by side and run one on each side out of phase but sourced from the opposite channel. That would widen things, but it's an illusion that most folks tire of; same effect on everything, highly sweet spot dependent, not to mention expensive and cumbersome to implement. What happens when the bass is monaural? You'd have to high pass just the spatial pair - perhaps a fun rainy day experiment if you happen to have two pairs of smaller speakers.
I cant think of anything else beyond that already mentioned.
Not surprising given how poor the AN10 classic is.
Getting a really good image/soundstage requires a loudspeaker that is seemless, has a very low diffraction signature, no radiation from the box, as well as reasonably flat FR thru the critical midband.
This is really hard with a speaker that has an XO in that crtitical band, and below the point at which physical centre-to-centre is less than a quarter-wavelength.
If a loudspeaker we prototype is incapable of a very good soundstage/image it is considered that it still needs work.
That can be seen in the shae of the miniOnkens.
dave
I don't get the dilemma with these issues. Another thread talks about "phantom center channel" tonality. When symmetry is correct, the "apparent" limitations of the sound stage simply disappear, period. There's more similarity among speakers than differences. They all do what they're designed for. Some do it better than others, hence the varying price categories. But the cheapest to the most expensive are all subject and limited to placement in a given environment. First and foremost is symmetry. If they're not aligned with each other, there is no sound stage, I mean one that can be identified with a sound engineer's intentions. You can't get more than what was put into the recording but you can get "all" of it, or obviously less. Special effects can put source 6' away from either speaker as in Roger Waters' Amused to Death. So the "sweet spot" doesn't just entail equidistance between speakers but also correct distance away. Equilateral triangle is the best example but not necessarily the best scenario. The point is, pun intended, that measurements be "really precise". You will find that when your incremental changes are on the order of a mm, you will then begin to actually 'hear' changes fade in/out. This, once you're in the ball park. 🙂
I couldn't agree more with this what planet10 said.
The problem is that people want an artificial sound stage that wasn't interpreted into the recording itself. The only way to get it is to build in fake trickery IOW affect the fidelity of the recording through reproduction "enhancement". Those extra rear firing tweeters and the like are blasphemy to my ears. I can understand people's different tastes in how they want their music to sound, but its not true to the source material and can't be considered "high fidelity" in that regard, sort of like 2 channel audio re mastered in surround sound... puke, choke, gag...
To each his own I guess, but don't try telling me its real high end audio.
The problem is that people want an artificial sound stage that wasn't interpreted into the recording itself. The only way to get it is to build in fake trickery IOW affect the fidelity of the recording through reproduction "enhancement". Those extra rear firing tweeters and the like are blasphemy to my ears. I can understand people's different tastes in how they want their music to sound, but its not true to the source material and can't be considered "high fidelity" in that regard, sort of like 2 channel audio re mastered in surround sound... puke, choke, gag...
To each his own I guess, but don't try telling me its real high end audio.
I happen to know the main engineer of that recording. It was done with alot of mic phasing trickery and is really a novelty recording in itself. Even so its still a cool piece of work.
The same mechanism or process that makes special effects more impressive are the same things that will make a good recording image better. Strategic room treatment, speaker placement, etc will be the main thing to focus on that will make a set of speakers integrate better into a given listening space and get the most precise spatial information out of the recording. Fancy caps, wires and other silly snake oil won't have as significant (if any) of an impact, yet people still keep buying into the illusion that a $1000 power conditioner will make that sort of a difference.
So the original '...source material...' fires most of its acoustical energy directly toward the listener in a relatively narrow beam, eh? 😀