This is a group design and build thread you might want to look at.
Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker | Audiokarma Home Audio Stereo Discussion Forums
Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker | Audiokarma Home Audio Stereo Discussion Forums
I use a folded horn with a tweeter box for my home audio.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I'm partial to the SEOS waveguides (google diysoundgroup). The QSC 152i waveguide (or one of its clones) is another great one.
I'd stay clear of any old style exponential horns, myself. Such as old Altecs, pre-2000 JBLs, original Klipsh.
I'd stay clear of any old style exponential horns, myself. Such as old Altecs, pre-2000 JBLs, original Klipsh.
Further requirements/constraints?
Clearly it depends on your further (unstated) requirements:
1) If the requirement includes widest frequency band, then horns with a 2-inch throat compression drivers are best, IME. Two inch compression drivers using more exotic diaphragm materials than aluminum or titanium, which ring badly (i.e., beryllium or some type of polymer sound much better, but cost a lot more).
2) If you're trying to use 1-inch throat compression drivers, things get much more complicated. You'll likely wind up with a 3-way design (tweeter, midrange, bass drivers) to achieve full-range. I actually don't recommend this approach.
3) If uniform coverage is desired and you're using 2-inch throat compression drivers, the best horns in terms of their sound in-room and coverage are controlled directivity horns. These horns all require equalization with their compression drivers.
The best 2-inch throat horn that I've heard or dealt with by far is the Klipsch K-402 horn. It's expensive: $1K[US] with attached driver and stand. It holds its polars down to 170 Hz in a 90x60 degree pattern, which IMO sounds best in-room (narrower horn patterns suffer from less satisfying sound in-room, IMO) and permits either a two-way full-range design with attached direct radiating woofer(s) or multiple-entry coaxial configurations.
Its little brother, the K-510 horn, is good down to 550 Hz before losing is 90x60 degree pattern control, and is quite a small horn for what it does. It really can't be used effectively as the basis for a multiple entry design. It's also expensive.
There are other 2-inch throat horns that are almost as good, notably the VFM audio 2-inch throat horn (if you can buy it outside of Australia--good luck with that).
4) For 1-inch throat horns, the ones that Bill Waslo identified above would be my starting choices, however I've also stated that I wouldn't go this direction due to the complexities of getting the crossovers filters implemented (assuming that you're trying to use passive crossovers--which I don't recommend), getting the polar coverage of the crossing drivers/horns to match at the crossover interference band(s), physical mounting of apertures on the loudspeaker box/baffle to minimize lobing, and lowest distortion.
I recommend instead using something like a miniDSP (with power conditioning to minimize noise) or an even better quality digital crossover to EQ everything flat.
5) If the requirement is least cost, then there are a lot of choices available, but typically much lower performance.
What's your cup of tea? Your specific price constraint is a good place to start.
Chris
Clearly it depends on your further (unstated) requirements:
1) If the requirement includes widest frequency band, then horns with a 2-inch throat compression drivers are best, IME. Two inch compression drivers using more exotic diaphragm materials than aluminum or titanium, which ring badly (i.e., beryllium or some type of polymer sound much better, but cost a lot more).
2) If you're trying to use 1-inch throat compression drivers, things get much more complicated. You'll likely wind up with a 3-way design (tweeter, midrange, bass drivers) to achieve full-range. I actually don't recommend this approach.
3) If uniform coverage is desired and you're using 2-inch throat compression drivers, the best horns in terms of their sound in-room and coverage are controlled directivity horns. These horns all require equalization with their compression drivers.
The best 2-inch throat horn that I've heard or dealt with by far is the Klipsch K-402 horn. It's expensive: $1K[US] with attached driver and stand. It holds its polars down to 170 Hz in a 90x60 degree pattern, which IMO sounds best in-room (narrower horn patterns suffer from less satisfying sound in-room, IMO) and permits either a two-way full-range design with attached direct radiating woofer(s) or multiple-entry coaxial configurations.
Its little brother, the K-510 horn, is good down to 550 Hz before losing is 90x60 degree pattern control, and is quite a small horn for what it does. It really can't be used effectively as the basis for a multiple entry design. It's also expensive.
There are other 2-inch throat horns that are almost as good, notably the VFM audio 2-inch throat horn (if you can buy it outside of Australia--good luck with that).
4) For 1-inch throat horns, the ones that Bill Waslo identified above would be my starting choices, however I've also stated that I wouldn't go this direction due to the complexities of getting the crossovers filters implemented (assuming that you're trying to use passive crossovers--which I don't recommend), getting the polar coverage of the crossing drivers/horns to match at the crossover interference band(s), physical mounting of apertures on the loudspeaker box/baffle to minimize lobing, and lowest distortion.
I recommend instead using something like a miniDSP (with power conditioning to minimize noise) or an even better quality digital crossover to EQ everything flat.
5) If the requirement is least cost, then there are a lot of choices available, but typically much lower performance.
What's your cup of tea? Your specific price constraint is a good place to start.
Chris
Hello Chris.
Where can I buy the K-510? Google search didn't return any hits. Same for measurements.
Do people cross this one over at 550 or higher?
I'm looking for a controlled directivity midrange horn, starting somewhere between 350 and 600 and up to 2000Hz. In a 4-way active, digital xo, time aligned, room corrected setup.
The K-402 is definitely loo large to be allowed into my living room 😱
Okay... here is the whole story to discard many variables here. I already made my speakers but I am having trouble with the horns I chose for them.. I am using a miniDSP OpernDRC DA8 unit and a multichannel amp. the woofers are 2 Eminence Alpha 15A, 2 PRV 8" Midbass units and the horn is a Pyle PH12s Constant tirectivity horn with a Selenium D220Ti compression driver attached. I need to change that horn because it overpowers the rest and sounds way too in my face, even at 15 feet or more..
Attachments
The compression driver is far more sensitive, what if all you need is just some attenuation on that horn/CD combo. A different horn shape isn't going to make the difference.
Have you measured the speaker?
Have you measured the speaker?
The Whole Story ??
I don't think so.
Feeding my skepticism is you haven't explained how you balance one set of components to another ( by ear ?, taking measurements ? via REW for instance ).
( Most, if not all ), Constant Coverage Horns need some form of EQ to be used in the HiFi world.
What's your EQ philosophy for your pyle horns ( ie; where is EQ implemented ? , & how do you derive your conclusions about what needs EQing ? )
🙂
Sorry... I am using REW and rePhase to create xover, eq, phase correction and balancing the drivers. different measurements were taken from each driver near field, individually and also as a system at 1 meter and at listening position.. from those readings then a FIR correction was created for each channel(LOWS, MIDS, HIGHS). Although it seems balanced on graphs, it feels too forward. Someone told me that the problem was that the horn was a Long throw type and that it was for outdoors, and that I needed a waveguide instead or a short Throw CD horn that could be more suitable for a room..
Well, generally I would classify a Waveguide as a short Throw CD horn ( & that small Pyle as short-throw ).
My recommendation ( cheap ) is to buy yourself an 8 ohm variable Lpad , dial in 10db of attenuation on it ( bypass pins 3 & 2 with something like a 3uF capacitor ) & then redo all your measurements & EQ's .
Passive devices ( IME ) have a habit of knocking some of the stuffing ( dynamics ) out of all-electronic systems.
This might be all the change that's necessary( to reduce your forward sounding hi-mids ) .
But, if you like buying stuff, then you should also own the PRV ( 152i ) clone waveguide , as well as the Tymphany ( Peerless ) compression driver .
(IMHO), they are both better sounding devices than what you currently have there .
If you can't manage the size of the PRV ( too-bad if not ) then the SEOS 12 is also available from PartsExpress .
🙂
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A lot of people think that constant directivity horns tend to sound bright (room and ear dependent, of course). That might be because their lack of high frequency beaming (with the smaller throat ones, in particular) puts more HF energy into the room when the on-axis response is set flat. It isn't unusual for the response on these to be set slightly downward sloping (slope in a straight line down about 5dB from 500Hz to 15kHz), which makes them sound richer.
I've done it both ways, but currently have a flat response (on the "SmallSyns"), since that sounds better in the room I'm using them in. Downstairs, I've usually used a downward sloped response which sounded better there.
I've done it both ways, but currently have a flat response (on the "SmallSyns"), since that sounds better in the room I'm using them in. Downstairs, I've usually used a downward sloped response which sounded better there.
Btw is there such a great difference in a living room environment between a good 90x60 horn (as the good controlled directivity todays horns) and a synergy horn design ?
Klipsch's policy on sales of its horns (i.e., horn-only) is that they must be bought with drivers attached. That's what causes the price to rise. However, if you need compression drivers and can find one that they bundle with the horns that you like/want, then the price isn't out of line.
Here is a thread on the original version of the K-510 horn (the one without "mumps"--a patented design modification by Klipsch/Roy Delgado that avoids the "waistbanding" of polars near the horn's lower frequency limit of polar control: https://community.klipsch.com/index...a-jubilee-510/&do=findComment&comment=1902772
A plot of the measured vertical polar control vs. frequency (even though it says "calculated", it's measured):
The horizontal polars are better than the vertical. You can cross at 550 Hz if using steep slope filters. The coverage is 90x60 degrees nominally. This is a spectacular little horn that I believe you'll like a great deal in terms of its in-room listening performance. I've got two of the newer versions (with mumps), and like them a lot.
Here's what the K-510 looks like nowadays:
If you live in North America (or perhaps in South America, too), I'd try emailing American Cinema Equipment ("Cinequip" for short) and ask for Spencer Chao: spencer.chao@cinequip.com or phone him on a Pacific time zone business schedule at (503) 285-7015. Price is about $600(US) for the driver/horn combination at last count, but might have changed since I last checked prices.
Ask for the K-510 with attached driver option, and then ask for the available drivers that can be bundled with it. At last check, one of those options was the B&C DE750, which is a pretty good Ti -diaphragm driver that doesn't exhibit overtly audible breakup modes above 10 kHz (unlike the K-69-A/P.Audio BM-D750 driver which does announce its breakup modes a bit more but is still tolerable, and which is a bit less expensive).
Chris
I'd like to make a little distinction here: "controlled directivity" is a preferred term for the more modern horn designs that avoid using diffraction slots.
"Constant directivity" implies diffraction slots in the throats of the horns in my experience-like the older JBL and EV horns from the 80s-90s. I don't recommend any of those type of horns for home hi-fi use.
Given that distinction, I have never experience brightness out of either the K-402 or the K-510 horns, both of which are controlled directivity horns. They sound different, but that's generally due to the higher crossover frequency used on the K-510.
It sounds like the K510 or the K-402 will solve that problem easily. They are both 90x60 horns that have excellent polar control vs. frequency, and I've never had an issue with too narrow of a polar coverage, thus resulting in a "overpowering" sound.
The other VFM-sourced (an FS Audio horn from China) horn I mentioned from Australia looks like it would also be extremely good, and at 1/10th the price, but the issue is buying them outside of Oz. Perhaps they're available from FS Audio or through another non-Oz source.
There is one more horn - a PRV WG45-50 horn with straight sides, an exponential mouth roll-out, and 90x40 coverage that's okay that could also be much less expensive ($50US).
You'll have to do some EQ on all of these horns to flatten their response.
Chris
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You are correct about the terminology for modern waveguides (should have said "controlled" rather than "constant"). The SEOS and 152i both fall into the 'controlled' category.
Of course, with a 2" driver, you are probably going to have less off-axis upper treble than with a 1" throat driver, which MIGHT explain not hearing the alleged brightness. I've heard it in some circumstances and not in others, not an objectionable thing to me but a little out of balance.
Of course, with a 2" driver, you are probably going to have less off-axis upper treble than with a 1" throat driver, which MIGHT explain not hearing the alleged brightness. I've heard it in some circumstances and not in others, not an objectionable thing to me but a little out of balance.
The "overpowering" sound reported with a narrower pattern waveguide might also be from reduced room reflections. That can get to sound like headphones, which some don't like. That can be mitigated if the waveguides are arranged to toe in (so that significant energy reaches side walls behind the listeners).
What I meant by long or short throw is the fact that the Pyle has a depth of 9-5/8", while the others that You, EarlK, has recommended are only 5.5" deep. So basically I believe You just answered that part of my question about that. and I thank You as well as the others who have contributed with their opinion/ advice so far..
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