hey guys I'm looking to build a 12" speaker using the dayton audio pa310-8 in a 55L vented box.
my problem is that I don't know a lot on compression drivers and horns.
I don't want to spend 300$ for HF, not with a 90$CA woofer!
The first picture is the Pa310 in the 55L(54,9L) box.
So I want to chose something cheap that will fit correctly with this woofer in this box!
The sim looks good under 200hz is this normal? I want something "flat"...
The local Pro-Audio store is Solen.ca , so if possible I will buy it there!
Also I need a xover for this, the woofer is like 450W rms and the compression driver is only 60W rms, how can I do to put 450W in the woofer and only 60 in the C.D.?
thanks in advance! hope you can help me!
PS: it's my first top build. I don't want to start over, my budget is really tigh.
my problem is that I don't know a lot on compression drivers and horns.
I don't want to spend 300$ for HF, not with a 90$CA woofer!
The first picture is the Pa310 in the 55L(54,9L) box.
So I want to chose something cheap that will fit correctly with this woofer in this box!
The sim looks good under 200hz is this normal? I want something "flat"...
The local Pro-Audio store is Solen.ca , so if possible I will buy it there!
Also I need a xover for this, the woofer is like 450W rms and the compression driver is only 60W rms, how can I do to put 450W in the woofer and only 60 in the C.D.?
thanks in advance! hope you can help me!
PS: it's my first top build. I don't want to start over, my budget is really tigh.
Attachments
This should be in multiway forum. But I can recommend the PRV D280Ti if you are on a budget. About $30 and a 45deg waveguide also from PRV for $11. Very smooth sounding setup that measures well. You can xo as low as 1200Hz but 2500Hz works better. Alternatively you can spend more and get a 12in SEOS waveguide and an appropriate XO and CD. If you are new to this don't reinvent the wheel and go with a tested design - look up an Econowave it will give specs for a XO and recommended CD - probably a Denovo that matches the SEOS.
Lots of things here...
1 - the midrange peaks and dips shown here won't be anywhere near as bad if you put a little bit of stuffing in there.
2 - compression drivers are often >10dB efficient than woofers, so are immediately using 1/10th the power. The HF bandwidth is also a low-power area. Something like 75% of acoustic energy is below 1kHz for an average piece of music, peaking around 300Hz. Unless you use a really small compression driver, the woofer is always going to run out of output first.
3 - In terms of choosing your CD/horn combo, you need to pick the lower cutoff frequency, coverage angle and maximum SPL. Looks to me like 1.6kHz would be a good start. A good 1" driver would do this just fine. For a general purpose box that'll be used one-per-side, 90 degree width is a good start. Go for 40-60 degrees vertical.
If you'll be coming across difficult rooms or might end up arraying them, 60 degree horns are the way to go IMO.
As a rule of thumb...
The average 1" driver will do 2kHz just fine. A good one will go lower.
A 1.4" driver will hit 1kHz, and a 2" driver will go below that.
Bigger diaphragms will do better towards the lower end of the range, but will be ragged at the top end.
A CD should never be asked to go lower than the horn will load, in a PA application. Doing this is like running a ported box below tuning - fine at low power, but you'll hit problems (sometimes fatal) if you turn it up. The lower cutoff of a horn should always be stated in the datasheet.
HTH
Chris
1 - the midrange peaks and dips shown here won't be anywhere near as bad if you put a little bit of stuffing in there.
2 - compression drivers are often >10dB efficient than woofers, so are immediately using 1/10th the power. The HF bandwidth is also a low-power area. Something like 75% of acoustic energy is below 1kHz for an average piece of music, peaking around 300Hz. Unless you use a really small compression driver, the woofer is always going to run out of output first.
3 - In terms of choosing your CD/horn combo, you need to pick the lower cutoff frequency, coverage angle and maximum SPL. Looks to me like 1.6kHz would be a good start. A good 1" driver would do this just fine. For a general purpose box that'll be used one-per-side, 90 degree width is a good start. Go for 40-60 degrees vertical.
If you'll be coming across difficult rooms or might end up arraying them, 60 degree horns are the way to go IMO.
As a rule of thumb...
The average 1" driver will do 2kHz just fine. A good one will go lower.
A 1.4" driver will hit 1kHz, and a 2" driver will go below that.
Bigger diaphragms will do better towards the lower end of the range, but will be ragged at the top end.
A CD should never be asked to go lower than the horn will load, in a PA application. Doing this is like running a ported box below tuning - fine at low power, but you'll hit problems (sometimes fatal) if you turn it up. The lower cutoff of a horn should always be stated in the datasheet.
HTH
Chris
the horn loaded compression driver can get down to somewhere around 1kHz to 3kHz.
That seems to leave a gap between your box speaker from 300Hz to at least 1kHz.
I think you need a mid driver to fill that gap. It too could be horn loaded.
That seems to leave a gap between your box speaker from 300Hz to at least 1kHz.
I think you need a mid driver to fill that gap. It too could be horn loaded.
Hi,
Datasheet Dayton Audio PA310-8
Looks clean up to 2kHz (if it holds true). Crossover at ~1,5 kHz should be possible.
SEOS12 or H290C horn and something like Beyma CP380 driver comes to mind.
Datasheet Dayton Audio PA310-8
Looks clean up to 2kHz (if it holds true). Crossover at ~1,5 kHz should be possible.
SEOS12 or H290C horn and something like Beyma CP380 driver comes to mind.
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maybe I should just look around and find another woofer? I didn't find what I'm looking for online! I want something that will fit over my tham12 (max 35cmX55cm footprint) and that can be use without them for smaller events! I'll build 2 more tham12 so maybe I'll end up with 4 tops too!
chriss661, thanks for all this good info! should I buy a 1,4" CD instead of a 1"? it will probably cost a lot more ahahahahah
I've call the local pro audio shop yesturday and they told me that the Dayton audio D250T-8 maybe a good choice. Fs is 800Hz, but if I understand correctly, I need to find a 800hz horn too. that's right?
and this horn looks good! 90X50 deg and de cutoff freq is 1000hz! Dayton Audio H6512 6-1/2" x 12" Waveguide 1-3/8"- 18 TPI
what do you think of this "combo"?
Maybe another woofer could also help to get better output after 300-350hz?
chriss661, thanks for all this good info! should I buy a 1,4" CD instead of a 1"? it will probably cost a lot more ahahahahah
I've call the local pro audio shop yesturday and they told me that the Dayton audio D250T-8 maybe a good choice. Fs is 800Hz, but if I understand correctly, I need to find a 800hz horn too. that's right?
and this horn looks good! 90X50 deg and de cutoff freq is 1000hz! Dayton Audio H6512 6-1/2" x 12" Waveguide 1-3/8"- 18 TPI
what do you think of this "combo"?
Maybe another woofer could also help to get better output after 300-350hz?
thanks AKN! I knew the datasheet but the simulation looks bad after 300hz so that's why I'm curious to see if in real life there will be a output drop!
I will check for these now:
https://solen.ca/products/pro-bass-midranges/sov-12-200/
https://solen.ca/wp-content/uploads/12250tc.pdf
https://solen.ca/wp-content/uploads/12300.pdf
https://solen.ca/wp-content/uploads/12500lf.pdf
https://solen.ca/wp-content/uploads/pro12300s.pdf
https://solen.ca/wp-content/uploads/pro12300.pdf
I will post simulations in a few hours! it's almost 7 am and I didn't see the time past, it's time to sleep 😛
I will check for these now:
https://solen.ca/products/pro-bass-midranges/sov-12-200/
https://solen.ca/wp-content/uploads/12250tc.pdf
https://solen.ca/wp-content/uploads/12300.pdf
https://solen.ca/wp-content/uploads/12500lf.pdf
https://solen.ca/wp-content/uploads/pro12300s.pdf
https://solen.ca/wp-content/uploads/pro12300.pdf
I will post simulations in a few hours! it's almost 7 am and I didn't see the time past, it's time to sleep 😛
Depends on the driver. Check out Art's Compression Driver Shootout thread - the EV DH1a was used below 500Hz, though it is a beast, the magnet being over 8" across.
djb, you'll need an adapter to attach that horn to that compression driver. Both appear decent, though. The horn wants a screw thread to attach, but the driver only has bolt holes. You can get adapters cheaply.
As I said above, the peaks and dips in the sim won't be anywhere near as bad in reality, and some stuffing or lining of the cabinet will pretty much leave just the midrange output from the LF cone itself, and ought to come out the same as the datasheet, plus some baffle-step and diffraction effects.
Chris
ohh I see now! ok the adapter is really cheap it's not a problem! 🙂 do you think I should that the D250P-8, it's almost the same, the only difference is that the fs is at 1000hz, frequency responce is 1000-20000. The D250T-8 stops at 17000, there's not a lot above 17000hz but... if the horn cutoff is 1000hz and the driver 800hz, it will not serve at all?
Check out specs on PRV D280Ti you might be surprised to see it is smoother than some of the more expensive units suggested here. I have measured it and it follows manufacturers' curve well. For $40 (sometimes $30 on sale) it is quite a value with nice high output and smooth sound.
http://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/294-2828-prv-audio-d280ti-b-specifications.pdf
It might be good to better define your overall design goals - as in how will this speaker be used? What size room, what average and peak SPL, what sort of music, how much bass do you want/need, are there limitations on size, what sort of amplifier power and type will you use... etc.
Typically, and in my experience, the LF limit of the horn can not be gone past, there is no useable output (not sure that was made clear before). So, one can put a horn with a lower LF (that being a different flare rate and larger mouth) on a driver with a nominally higher LF cutoff. Say a 300Hz horn with an 800Hz spec'd driver. It will work, BUT the SPL limit due to the internal construction of the driver and the diaphragm will drop the usable max SPL. MOST compression drivers are spec'd at usable freq range WITH full SPL possible. That may or may not be more than is needed in a home set up. So, in some cases and withsome drivers one can use the drivers much lower than the nominal spec'f LF cutoff.
Or alternately with a lower slope xover than is normally required...
An example is one the Atlas drivers, I think it is the K-55 (iirc) which draws its design from the famous WE555 in some regards. Otoh, this driver is not known for HF extension.
Two way systems with a 15" or a 12" plus anything, including a horn have all sorts of design issues to cope with, many merely based on the distance between the acoustic centers of the LF and HF drivers, and the other major factor being the physical impossibility of getting a big cone driver to go high enough in frequency (flat enough and sounding good enough, and with the proper polar response, etc.) to meet the HF driver properly.
One of the better current solutions to this design problem is done by Earl Geddes, and you can find it on this forum in a lot of detail. Dr. Geddes is a professional and he sells a product with some unique features - but even this product will not have "thunder bass".
The other solution to this problem may look like a "studio monitor" and usually is the size of a washing machine or refrigerator...
But don't stop and give up over these things, just be aware of some of the issues, then you can find some of the more generally accepted solutions (all speakers are compromises, no matter what) and pick what will fly best for your uses.
_-_-
PS. don't agonize too much about anything much over 15kHz, imo, since a surprising range of people can't hear that high, and also unless there is a nasty peak in there it will likely be acceptable - worst case you can always put some rolloff above 10kHz into the design too. The problem is that if you get the 10kHz-20kHz range "perfect" you probably do not have a driver that will get anywhere near the required xover point to match a 12" or 15" cone.
PPS. once you go three way, you've opened another 'can of worms"! 😀
It's a balancing act, these speakers!
Typically, and in my experience, the LF limit of the horn can not be gone past, there is no useable output (not sure that was made clear before). So, one can put a horn with a lower LF (that being a different flare rate and larger mouth) on a driver with a nominally higher LF cutoff. Say a 300Hz horn with an 800Hz spec'd driver. It will work, BUT the SPL limit due to the internal construction of the driver and the diaphragm will drop the usable max SPL. MOST compression drivers are spec'd at usable freq range WITH full SPL possible. That may or may not be more than is needed in a home set up. So, in some cases and withsome drivers one can use the drivers much lower than the nominal spec'f LF cutoff.
Or alternately with a lower slope xover than is normally required...
An example is one the Atlas drivers, I think it is the K-55 (iirc) which draws its design from the famous WE555 in some regards. Otoh, this driver is not known for HF extension.
Two way systems with a 15" or a 12" plus anything, including a horn have all sorts of design issues to cope with, many merely based on the distance between the acoustic centers of the LF and HF drivers, and the other major factor being the physical impossibility of getting a big cone driver to go high enough in frequency (flat enough and sounding good enough, and with the proper polar response, etc.) to meet the HF driver properly.
One of the better current solutions to this design problem is done by Earl Geddes, and you can find it on this forum in a lot of detail. Dr. Geddes is a professional and he sells a product with some unique features - but even this product will not have "thunder bass".
The other solution to this problem may look like a "studio monitor" and usually is the size of a washing machine or refrigerator...
But don't stop and give up over these things, just be aware of some of the issues, then you can find some of the more generally accepted solutions (all speakers are compromises, no matter what) and pick what will fly best for your uses.
_-_-
PS. don't agonize too much about anything much over 15kHz, imo, since a surprising range of people can't hear that high, and also unless there is a nasty peak in there it will likely be acceptable - worst case you can always put some rolloff above 10kHz into the design too. The problem is that if you get the 10kHz-20kHz range "perfect" you probably do not have a driver that will get anywhere near the required xover point to match a 12" or 15" cone.
PPS. once you go three way, you've opened another 'can of worms"! 😀
It's a balancing act, these speakers!
these speaker will be use during my dj gigs and during my band practices. there's no room size, because sometimes it's house party sometimes it's outside gigs... the average and max SPL... it's hard to say... I want to be able to make a 100 persons gigs outside! I don't really need bass because I have my tham12 ( I never play dubstep or house...kids don't have money ) and I will buy a second iNuke3000DSP for the speakers... for the price it's perfect for me, I would like to have the speaker in 4 ohms total!
I dont really understand everything I will read it slowly and keep you informed
Hi,
Your sim will not predict mid frequency response accurately. Parameters as cone brake up(s) are unknown to your sim program. Your sim assumes a rigid piston and that will not be the case at frequencies in question.
Simple. Ignore anything Hornresp says about direct radiators above a few hundred Hz, and take it from the manufacturer's graph. If you measure the final box, I'd expect it to look like the data sheet plus some diffraction and baffle step effects. Maybe a port resonance which can be killed off with some squishy stuff.
Also, make sure you sim in 4pi for top speakers. On a stand in a field, that's about what you'll be getting. If you manage to get near a boundary, you'll get a little gain, which is nice to have, but can't be relied on.
Chris
Also, make sure you sim in 4pi for top speakers. On a stand in a field, that's about what you'll be getting. If you manage to get near a boundary, you'll get a little gain, which is nice to have, but can't be relied on.
Chris
ohh nice thanks! in 4pi all get a lot less acoustic power right? how will I get il back? by doubling the speakers?
might be a plan to ask potential manufacturers of both horns and compression drivers for some physical info. If you don't match up the exit angle of the driver with the entrance angle of the horn you will have significant reflections. Otherwise it is willy nilly and if you cannot get the data then you should arrange an audition before you purchase.
You might also want to look into the DIYSoundGroup SEOS horns, drivers, and designs:
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