I ask in all sincerity: If something like a Firstwatt amp can be built with such high sound quality and so few parts, why are most commercial offerings from all eras so complex in parts count? I understand manufacturing (my profession) and that in the end viable commercial solutions come down to dollars and cents along with being reliable and stupid proof (that alone takes time, energy and resources! A LOT of money goes into stupid proof!). In general, the more parts the higher the cost in both acquiring those parts and labor to install them; unless those more numerous parts are so insanely cheap they can do the job of fewer more expensive parts. Or perhaps those numerous parts make the product more universal to all markets so money is saved by having a single highly numerous product as opposed to variants in a smaller number. Or perhaps something else altogether?
When you pull the covers off most audio components, especially anything that is not "esoteric", you're staring at MANY devices whether they be passive or microchips. That said, what am I overlooking?
When you pull the covers off most audio components, especially anything that is not "esoteric", you're staring at MANY devices whether they be passive or microchips. That said, what am I overlooking?
Power is a big one. FW amps (relatively speaking) are low power.
One of the main reasons for lots of extra circuitry is protection. Electronic nannys to make sure the amp doesn’t melt down of distort heavily. Amps that I build have no such stuff because I know what the proper limits are and build my amps to have a lot of over spec parts and to be well within limits. A commercial amplifier has got to be able to survive idiots doing idiotic things without blowing up!
Features also. Speaker switches. Headphone jacks. Fancy anodized front panel.
Why single out Pass Labs? They were in business long before First Watt.
In fact, their success made First Watt possible.
Anyway, some people really do need more than 30W per channel.
In fact, their success made First Watt possible.
Anyway, some people really do need more than 30W per channel.
That's a good one! I'll just add that I own a great sounding, relatively expensive, and quite complex amp that was produced back in the mid 90's. It really is a wonderful amp...problem is, since I bought it over a year ago it's spent most of the time on, or in transit to and from, a so called "expert technicians" bench. It's now starting the next chapter of its life back at the original factory, cause there's exactly one person in the world that can repair it correctly. Now, it could be another year and possibly cost my child a semester's tuition at a good college before it comes back to me. In all likelihood I'll have completed at least a couple more FW clones before it's shipped to me again.
That's a problem for complicated circuits. I like simple stuff for a small list of reasons - you can easily imagine what those are, but in the end you will appreciate that I was exposed to Picasso at a young and impressionable age...
In a way you answer your own question "reliability and stupid proof". If you are going to push a product into the market place you do not want a whole lot of them coming back again. Another thing is fashion, especially in the 80s and 90s when the big brands were competing. How many knobs and flashing lights can we add. Those who buy first watt have an understanding of what they are getting and how to look after it. Different league to a peice of kit destined for life on the road.
Funny but some of the best sounding equipment I have heard had simple design circuits, might have lots of parts like many parallel outputs, but still simple design. My favorite example of this is the Pass Aleph P preamp, it is simple, minimalistic, elegant, and great sounding, and while I have heard much more expensive equipment that is a bit more detailed sounding, the rich warm sound of the Aleph P from so few parts in a good design is wonderful.
I have had consumer grade receivers that are parts fests that are not all that great sounding, and when they fail are a real PITA to troubleshoot.
I have had consumer grade receivers that are parts fests that are not all that great sounding, and when they fail are a real PITA to troubleshoot.
As above. Small components are cheap, hardware including power tranformers, heatsinks and psu smoothing capacitors aren't.
Switch mode psus and Class D amps don't need large and expensive parts....
Of course, as we know, the Chinese are masters of squeezing a quart out of a pint pot with their 300watt amps that run from a 12v 4amp wall wart.
Switch mode psus and Class D amps don't need large and expensive parts....
Of course, as we know, the Chinese are masters of squeezing a quart out of a pint pot with their 300watt amps that run from a 12v 4amp wall wart.
Looking through the "Post your solid state pics here" thread the other day I thought that it would be fun to see an art exhibit with some of the amplifiers.That's a problem for complicated circuits. I like simple stuff for a small list of reasons - you can easily imagine what those are, but in the end you will appreciate that I was exposed to Picasso at a young and impressionable age...
I could totally see mounting an F7 on the wall
.........If great sounding amps can be built with so few parts, why are most commercial offerings so utterly expensive, considering what (!!) sound quality they're offering?
Because ceo wants new jet to fly to his new beach house in seychelles.
I think the reality of the commercial world, is having skilled but general electronics engineers and product deadlines. There are many amplifiers that I consider 'a bit pointless' as the same tired old designs are used again and again: but I think that's the reality of the market.
Even today, well, especially today when there's no money in HiFi - unlike the 1970s, finding a good audio electronics designer who would take the time to contemplate various simple, elegant designs is tricky, and then there's the pressures - time and money.
Which is ironic, because so much stuff for leisure is made with great care to minimise the leisure of those who built it 😀.
I think in 1970s Sansui, Japan, engineers had a bit more time, and pushed new concepts and ideas - because the environment allowed it. Having said that, the Sansui 1000x is a bit over complicated too LOL
Yeh jets are expensive and more so with hot chicks serving fancey drinks. Commercial made stuff needs a profit,diy does not so much more fredom in building gd sounding audio.
Well, so many reasons, for a large percentage of people who want a beautiful music system they need to go to stores to audition various components to find what works for them. Now you have a network that needs profit as well as products that hopefully are reliable but if there is a failure a service network needs to be in place. As a company you might often have to repair products that failed, through no fault of the component, at no charge inclusive of shipping back, more expense. Also, the manufacturer probably has to have a stash of parts to last through the warranty and legal limits.
If you were making products to sell how many hours do you factor in for each unit, so many potential time sinks. What is your time worth?
I also have to add that I really like my current system, which is certainly not inexpensive, Naim Supernait 3 w/ HiCap DR. Functionality, feel, fit, finish all excellent. Is it worth it? Not really the point, I really love listening to music and find these components very satisfying.
That all being said, I have a Tubes4HiFi SP14 preamp, a P3 and some other stuff waiting to be built and am patiently 😉 waiting for the F5M with the intent of selling my Naim set.
If you were making products to sell how many hours do you factor in for each unit, so many potential time sinks. What is your time worth?
I also have to add that I really like my current system, which is certainly not inexpensive, Naim Supernait 3 w/ HiCap DR. Functionality, feel, fit, finish all excellent. Is it worth it? Not really the point, I really love listening to music and find these components very satisfying.
That all being said, I have a Tubes4HiFi SP14 preamp, a P3 and some other stuff waiting to be built and am patiently 😉 waiting for the F5M with the intent of selling my Naim set.
There is also the Rolls Royce / Jaguar effect and satisfying snobbish buyer aspirations..........If great sounding amps can be built with so few parts, why are most commercial offerings so utterly expensive, considering what (!!) sound quality they're offering?
Buying something with an extremely high price means:-
a) 'I've made it/ look at me I am wealthy and successful...
b) If something costs a fortune it must be really good.
c) I want exclusivity and don't buy mass market products.
Naim are a succesful UK company still in business because they cater for the 'more money than sense' customer and some of their products really are 'mutton dressed as lamb'.
Some of their amps I've come across, the Ixo crossover and the SBL speakers I own are all extremely unimpressive under the surface and in performance terms to justify the prices.
There's a general 'thing' in marketing, presumably drilled into marketroids at university, that every 1-2-3 years some flashy new design is needed.
Take the BMW E30, that car was almost perfect, and if BMW had simply retired most of their designers and done the old Japanese trick on 'incremental improvement' they's be perfect today, too. Same as the Peugeot 206/306/406 series, Pininfarina styled - replaced a couple of years later by some hideous monsters, messing up the spares system too as now everything is different - 'progress'.
Just look at how many different types of rear light cluster exist in the world: madness. Marketing 1 : People 0.
Same with HiFi - well, HiFi is simpler than cars, and really only has one task - to allow people to enjoy music, so in a perfect world, away from marketing and inflation, only a handful of designers would be needed to gradually finesse the best designs - and everything would be both cheap and good.
Naim I have mixed feelings about, they appear to charge an awful lot of currency for few components, and their electronic designs are for me, rather boring - but it's nice they still exist.
What I see in the (surviving) department stores now is a rash of 'sound boxes', Naim included, that appear to be regressing to the 1960s radiograms idea, but with inferior sound.. I've not managed to get an acceptable sound out of any of them, a Ruark was the closest, but at £1400 not sounding anywhere near as good as my cheap class D chinese amp into some old Grundig Box 550s - I wasn't impressed.
Now HMV is filling up with Vinyl records again at £30 a pop, and cheap plastic turntables of the sort I laughed at in the mid 1970s... 😀