Does anyone know where I can find information on replacing the filters of a pair of B&W Matrix 803 speakers (the old series)? I am looking for info about opening the enclosure.
Thanks! 🙂
Thanks! 🙂
Have you played engineered test tone tracks, or engineered test music?
Do you hear something "off" ?
Where does it hurt?
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Not one single resistor in this 2.5 way crossover!
I suspect that the inductors in the crossover use small gauge wire to create the resistance required to balance SPLs. So, you probably cannot substitute larger, lower resistance inductors in this circuit.
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TYPICALLY, a 3-way crossover allows a "cleaner" midrange since the (yellow)midbass driver is no longer required to play bass tones, and upper midrange tones from the heavier cone woofer are attenuated and no longer contribute to the output. If you decide to model/build a new 3-way crossover you will need to accept the lower SPL/watt starting around 400Hz of just the (yellow)midbass driver solo covering a wider range of low frequencies, and attenuate the entire circuit to match... a lower SPL/watt speaker. Resistors 🙂
Do you hear something "off" ?
Where does it hurt?
=============
Not one single resistor in this 2.5 way crossover!
I suspect that the inductors in the crossover use small gauge wire to create the resistance required to balance SPLs. So, you probably cannot substitute larger, lower resistance inductors in this circuit.
============
TYPICALLY, a 3-way crossover allows a "cleaner" midrange since the (yellow)midbass driver is no longer required to play bass tones, and upper midrange tones from the heavier cone woofer are attenuated and no longer contribute to the output. If you decide to model/build a new 3-way crossover you will need to accept the lower SPL/watt starting around 400Hz of just the (yellow)midbass driver solo covering a wider range of low frequencies, and attenuate the entire circuit to match... a lower SPL/watt speaker. Resistors 🙂
@LineSource: I hadn't noticed that.
Now, though I have some electronics experience, I am anly a aspirant DIYer. So most of what you said I have no experience with. However, I can say that my aim was to remove the crossovers and let them enjoy a service update in the store.
What is the significance of the lack of resistors in the filter?
Thanks.
Now, though I have some electronics experience, I am anly a aspirant DIYer. So most of what you said I have no experience with. However, I can say that my aim was to remove the crossovers and let them enjoy a service update in the store.
What is the significance of the lack of resistors in the filter?
Thanks.
Circle,
This is probably very different from what you are planning, but please consider replacing the passive filters and turning it into an active system. I have done that with an 804S and the difference is very noticeable. Of course this means a major change in system architechture, so not saying this necessarily your best alternative, but rather one that yields very good sound and should be considered.
Just in case: an active system is one where your source or preamp feeds an active crossover, which divides the full bandwidth into 3 streams and puts treble/midrange/bass on different cables than feed independent amps that are directly connected to the speaker drivers. No inductors, capacitors, etc. This has many technical advantages, and the clear disadvantage of complexity to set up right.
The above can be implemented in the analog domain, or digital. In my case I decided to specialize the system on the best posible sound using only digital as source, so I use a super optimized PC, purpose-built for audio. This PC peocesses the audio and the same software has the capability to work as a digital crossover. So the PC outputs 8 channels through USB (for a 4-way stereo) to a Lynx Hilo DAC, which drives two subwoofers below 80Hz, two Hypex UcD400 (inexpensive and very good for midbass/bass) directly connected to the 804S woofers, and tube amp driving midrange and tweeter.
I used to be a purist and was abiding by that credo - heck, I still haven't gotten to sell my beloved Lamm preamp! - but after switching I'm not going back. I've been switching incrementally, so not suggesting you throw everything away and start anew, but rather develop a plan and execute it step by step.
I'll get off my soap box now 🙂
Of course there are a lot of details to it, but thought I should put the idea out and let you digest.
Cheers!
This is probably very different from what you are planning, but please consider replacing the passive filters and turning it into an active system. I have done that with an 804S and the difference is very noticeable. Of course this means a major change in system architechture, so not saying this necessarily your best alternative, but rather one that yields very good sound and should be considered.
Just in case: an active system is one where your source or preamp feeds an active crossover, which divides the full bandwidth into 3 streams and puts treble/midrange/bass on different cables than feed independent amps that are directly connected to the speaker drivers. No inductors, capacitors, etc. This has many technical advantages, and the clear disadvantage of complexity to set up right.
The above can be implemented in the analog domain, or digital. In my case I decided to specialize the system on the best posible sound using only digital as source, so I use a super optimized PC, purpose-built for audio. This PC peocesses the audio and the same software has the capability to work as a digital crossover. So the PC outputs 8 channels through USB (for a 4-way stereo) to a Lynx Hilo DAC, which drives two subwoofers below 80Hz, two Hypex UcD400 (inexpensive and very good for midbass/bass) directly connected to the 804S woofers, and tube amp driving midrange and tweeter.
I used to be a purist and was abiding by that credo - heck, I still haven't gotten to sell my beloved Lamm preamp! - but after switching I'm not going back. I've been switching incrementally, so not suggesting you throw everything away and start anew, but rather develop a plan and execute it step by step.
I'll get off my soap box now 🙂
Of course there are a lot of details to it, but thought I should put the idea out and let you digest.
Cheers!
Which means typically you should measure the inductor resistance (DCR). However based on where the are in the circuit, the resistance would only affect the base level and the knee of the tweeter filter response.
@LewinskiH01: That is a very good idea indeed! However, I am unfit for work and have to save means to afford this kind of bussiness. However, it sounds like music to my ears! I'll consider it! 🙂
1) B&W has very good speaker design engineers and measurement systems.
2) Your model 803 speaker has proven "good" SPL measurements for a simple 2.5-way design.
3) B&W uses good quality capacitors. UNLESS YOUR CAPACITORS ARE DAMAGED--->
4) If you upgrade the capacitors with "EXOTIC" brands you will likely hear very little difference.
-------probably $250 for Exotic Capacitors experiment
5) It you upgrade to low resistance inductors, you will significanlty change the SPL measurements
IF THE CAPACITORS ARE NOT DAMAGED, You could save money for new(nifty used) 3-way speakers.
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---Do your speakers sound ODD to you, such that you want to change the sound?
Have you played engineered test tone tracks, or engineered test music?
Have you studied room placement whitepapers?
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Meh, you can get good B&W approved caps for less than $250. 🙂
B&W goes from unbranded, to Mundorf MKP to Mundorf Supremes or something like that.
The MKP's are inexpensive ($7-12) and very good sounding, so worth doing for tweets and maybe even mids.
B&W goes from unbranded, to Mundorf MKP to Mundorf Supremes or something like that.
The MKP's are inexpensive ($7-12) and very good sounding, so worth doing for tweets and maybe even mids.
I used the phrase "Exotic" brand capacitors and got the $250 figure from Mundorf Supreme Cap prices from Madisound.
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If the caps in the B&W speakers are "bad" a typical DIY_owner would pull out a soldering iron and probably use a grade similar to the Solen PB 400V at $13.40/speaker.
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Mundorf Supreme Caps from Madisound =my example=
10uF $46.70
6uF $37.60
4.7uF $28.80
$113.10 per speaker
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Mundorf Silver Gold from Madisound
10uF $258
6uF $178
4.7uF $162
$598 per speaker
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Clarity Cap MR from Madisound
10uF $98.80
6uF $76.60
4.7uF $62.20
$237.60 per speaker
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Clarity Cap ESA 250V from Madisound
10uF $15.45
6uF $11.75
4.7uF $9.45
$36.65 per speaker
======== Example of Typical B&W grade
Solen PB 400V - Made in France
10uF $6.10
6uF $3.90
4.7uF $3.40
$13.40 per speaker
I definitely hear you! Same thing here. Although the active configuration sounds more expensive at first sight, it might not be. I'm doing without an expensive cd player and preamp and the additional stuff I need is less expensive than those. In fact my plan is to eventually sell the 804S as I'm working on a DIY speaker.
In my mind the critical piece is how you listen to your music today? Vinyl, CDs, computer? If either vinyl or CDs are a must have, then the configuration might not be cheaper.
My current multichannel DAC costs about 30-40% of what my pre + DAC were, which had me wondering if going active could indeed sound better. Having tried it I now have no further questions. You can start rather cheap. A Focusrite DAC card, a used SS or class D amp for bass, and keep the passive xo between tweeter and midrange for now. I realize it sounds overwhelming.
If interested you can look at my posts at audiogon under the same used ID, from about 2 years. Lately I stopped posting as folks there seem to be more interested in how expensive can expensive components become...
🙂
I guessed that the 'mumbling' sound my speakers produce could be due to worn caps, but I am not sure that phenomenon is a sign of that. The 803's don't sound 'fresh' and 'lively' anymore. The positioning is still awesome though. Could it be the capacitors? (or inductors?) Or is it rather something else?
🙂
I guessed that the 'mumbling' sound my speakers produce could be due to worn caps, but I am not sure that phenomenon is a sign of that. The 803's don't sound 'fresh' and 'lively' anymore. The positioning is still awesome though. Could it be the capacitors? (or inductors?) Or is it rather something else?
🙂
Do your friends also notice this "mumbling" sound on both speakers? Just one speaker?
Can you borrow a different CD player and amp from a friend?
If your amplifier "clipped" it could have destroyed the crossover parts or drivers in one speaker, and in rare situations both speakers. The crossover parts are typically much more rugged than the drivers. A child's finger can do equal damage. A Google search shows no major reliability issues with your B&W 803.
For $15 - $80 you can purchase a good microphone and use free software to make basic measurements. There are several tutorials on how to make measurements. I find the $60-80 USB connection microphones the most versatile.
Can you borrow a different CD player and amp from a friend?
If your amplifier "clipped" it could have destroyed the crossover parts or drivers in one speaker, and in rare situations both speakers. The crossover parts are typically much more rugged than the drivers. A child's finger can do equal damage. A Google search shows no major reliability issues with your B&W 803.
For $15 - $80 you can purchase a good microphone and use free software to make basic measurements. There are several tutorials on how to make measurements. I find the $60-80 USB connection microphones the most versatile.
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