I thought I would post the results of my attempts to achieve better sound from the Paradigm Reference Studio 100 v.2 multi-way floor-standers (1 tweeter, 1 4" mid, 2 8" woofers -- 110lbs) that I bought a few months ago. They are located in my living room, which is 20'L x 12'W x 8'H and has suspended hardwood floors. I listen across the width of the room, so the range is pretty close.
In this particular room, the speakers have a very prominent bass output that, at higher volumes, can overwhelm the mids and highs, and also transfer mechanical vibrations into the structure of the house, producing very undesirable sound artifacts and killing the sound stage and imaging. This was especially true when I first got the speakers home and used the round brass feet that were screwed tightly to the bottom of the cabinets and placed directly on the floor. Loosening the feet a little did not really help.
My next step was to remove the brass feet and place small aluminum receiving cups under the spikes, which resulted in a *drastic* improvement in clarity, instrument separation, and imaging. I was really taken aback at how much improvement came from that simple change. I then decided to take it further by affixing self-adhesive plastic Magic Sliders under the cups, which improved the sound even more.
Still, at louder (but not ear-shattering) volumes, there was a tendency for the bass output to overwhelm the mids and highs coming from the speaker itself, as well as for mechanical vibrations to turn my living room into a giant subwoofer. So I decided some dampening material might help to minimize energy transfer and also clean up/balance the sound coming from the drivers. I figured the vulcanized rubber that hockey pucks are made of might do the trick, while the reduced friction of furniture sliders attached to the bottom would allow lateral vibration to occur and minimize transfer of mechanical energy into the hardwood floor. It $1 a puck, it could also be done at much lower cost than the beryllium/titanium/plutonium/unobtanium products marketed to audiophiles at great expense.
You would NOT BELIEVE how difficult it is to find hockey pucks in Oklahoma.
At first, I simply cut some furniture sliding felt to fit the pucks, removed the spikes from under the speakers, and placed the speakers on top of the pucks. Bass dominance of the sound output and mechanical transfer were drastically reduced, but clarity, instrument separation, and soundstage suffered woefully.
puck-felt by jeffdrouin, on Flickr
pucks-speaker by jeffdrouin, on Flickr
I then hypothesized that more lateral movement was necessary for allowing mechanical energy to dissipate out of the speaker enclosures, which could be achieved by reintroducing the spikes and placing the receiving cups inside the pucks.
So I bought a 1" forstner drill bit, found the center of each puck by inscribing a rectangle and drawing diagonals across its corners, and then drilled down 1/4" (the thickness of the cups). I inserted the cups, reinserted the spikes, and put them in place on the assembly.
puck-cutting by jeffdrouin, on Flickr
puck-cup-assembly by jeffdrouin, on Flickr
puck-cups-spikes by jeffdrouin, on Flickr
room-setup by jeffdrouin, on Flickr
(also visible in these pictures are my DIY speaker cables and interconnects)
The result is a *MUCH* more balanced and accurate bass response, with clarity restored to the midrange and highs, soundstage as good as I'd had it before, and almost no reverberation from the structure of the house.
Still, I can't help thinking that there might be too much volume taken out of the upper bass and highs. I'll do an A/B comparison with cups/furniture sliders alone, just to see if this is a placebo effect.
Now I'm thinking an even better solution might be to use less absorptive material in the feet and place them on a dense surface between the feet and the floor. Might try going back to cups/sliders -- but on top of granite slabs with a layer of cut doormat or something between them and the floor.
Frankly, the speakers are probably just too large for the room and engineering of the house, so I've been considering a switch to DIY full-range folded horns and a tube amp. But these changes have greatly increased the enjoyment of the music and system that I have. Any new steps will have to wait until we decide whether we're moving or renovating, either one of which will happen within the year.
Also, if anyone has further advice on room placement, dampening, or isolation, I'd really appreciate it!
Thanks, and I hope this documentation is helpful to anyone with large multi-ways looking to get better sound in their small rooms.
In this particular room, the speakers have a very prominent bass output that, at higher volumes, can overwhelm the mids and highs, and also transfer mechanical vibrations into the structure of the house, producing very undesirable sound artifacts and killing the sound stage and imaging. This was especially true when I first got the speakers home and used the round brass feet that were screwed tightly to the bottom of the cabinets and placed directly on the floor. Loosening the feet a little did not really help.
My next step was to remove the brass feet and place small aluminum receiving cups under the spikes, which resulted in a *drastic* improvement in clarity, instrument separation, and imaging. I was really taken aback at how much improvement came from that simple change. I then decided to take it further by affixing self-adhesive plastic Magic Sliders under the cups, which improved the sound even more.
Still, at louder (but not ear-shattering) volumes, there was a tendency for the bass output to overwhelm the mids and highs coming from the speaker itself, as well as for mechanical vibrations to turn my living room into a giant subwoofer. So I decided some dampening material might help to minimize energy transfer and also clean up/balance the sound coming from the drivers. I figured the vulcanized rubber that hockey pucks are made of might do the trick, while the reduced friction of furniture sliders attached to the bottom would allow lateral vibration to occur and minimize transfer of mechanical energy into the hardwood floor. It $1 a puck, it could also be done at much lower cost than the beryllium/titanium/plutonium/unobtanium products marketed to audiophiles at great expense.
You would NOT BELIEVE how difficult it is to find hockey pucks in Oklahoma.
At first, I simply cut some furniture sliding felt to fit the pucks, removed the spikes from under the speakers, and placed the speakers on top of the pucks. Bass dominance of the sound output and mechanical transfer were drastically reduced, but clarity, instrument separation, and soundstage suffered woefully.
puck-felt by jeffdrouin, on Flickrpucks-speaker by jeffdrouin, on FlickrI then hypothesized that more lateral movement was necessary for allowing mechanical energy to dissipate out of the speaker enclosures, which could be achieved by reintroducing the spikes and placing the receiving cups inside the pucks.
So I bought a 1" forstner drill bit, found the center of each puck by inscribing a rectangle and drawing diagonals across its corners, and then drilled down 1/4" (the thickness of the cups). I inserted the cups, reinserted the spikes, and put them in place on the assembly.
puck-cutting by jeffdrouin, on Flickrpuck-cup-assembly by jeffdrouin, on Flickrpuck-cups-spikes by jeffdrouin, on Flickrroom-setup by jeffdrouin, on Flickr(also visible in these pictures are my DIY speaker cables and interconnects)
The result is a *MUCH* more balanced and accurate bass response, with clarity restored to the midrange and highs, soundstage as good as I'd had it before, and almost no reverberation from the structure of the house.
Still, I can't help thinking that there might be too much volume taken out of the upper bass and highs. I'll do an A/B comparison with cups/furniture sliders alone, just to see if this is a placebo effect.
Now I'm thinking an even better solution might be to use less absorptive material in the feet and place them on a dense surface between the feet and the floor. Might try going back to cups/sliders -- but on top of granite slabs with a layer of cut doormat or something between them and the floor.
Frankly, the speakers are probably just too large for the room and engineering of the house, so I've been considering a switch to DIY full-range folded horns and a tube amp. But these changes have greatly increased the enjoyment of the music and system that I have. Any new steps will have to wait until we decide whether we're moving or renovating, either one of which will happen within the year.
Also, if anyone has further advice on room placement, dampening, or isolation, I'd really appreciate it!
Thanks, and I hope this documentation is helpful to anyone with large multi-ways looking to get better sound in their small rooms.
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Interesting observations and neat experimentation. So you are saying that too much vibration isolation ruins sound stage? You should take some measurements to see what the difference in frequency response and phase is - that would be cool to see quantifiable effects of spikes - which I have never liked.
Thanks for sharing.
Try sorbothane pads in between granite or concrete pads with felt on bottom concrete pad and floor.
Thanks for sharing.
Try sorbothane pads in between granite or concrete pads with felt on bottom concrete pad and floor.
Interesting problem.
IF I read it correctly.. you have a Floating wood floor of some type? Aftermarket probably?
Often those act as drum skins.. So It's conceivable that one would /could experience odd coupled Speaker side effects.
Wonder if, as suggested above. If sorbothane might be further improvement.
Bit pricey stuff though.
G'luck
IF I read it correctly.. you have a Floating wood floor of some type? Aftermarket probably?
Often those act as drum skins.. So It's conceivable that one would /could experience odd coupled Speaker side effects.
Wonder if, as suggested above. If sorbothane might be further improvement.
Bit pricey stuff though.
G'luck
I think a sheet of sorbothane enough for 8 pucks will run you about $25 from Amazon.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B004LYGHGM/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?qid=1421871931&sr=8-1&dpPl=1&dpID=31wR5nb8nzL&ref=plSrch&pi=AC_SX200_QL40
There is another material to try called 3DO - made of re formulated silly putty in shaped foam used as smart material for impacts. It firms up under rapid stress and is pliable under slow deformation. There is another material similar to sorbothane but thinner and 100% better. Used as shock absorbing insoles on athletic shoes called Noene. That stuff is amazing. A 1mm sheet will completely dissipate energy from a falling steel ball into hard granite with zero bounce. I have some and it boggles the mind. Expensive though.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B004LYGHGM/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?qid=1421871931&sr=8-1&dpPl=1&dpID=31wR5nb8nzL&ref=plSrch&pi=AC_SX200_QL40
There is another material to try called 3DO - made of re formulated silly putty in shaped foam used as smart material for impacts. It firms up under rapid stress and is pliable under slow deformation. There is another material similar to sorbothane but thinner and 100% better. Used as shock absorbing insoles on athletic shoes called Noene. That stuff is amazing. A 1mm sheet will completely dissipate energy from a falling steel ball into hard granite with zero bounce. I have some and it boggles the mind. Expensive though.
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Thanks for the tip on sorbothane. Looks like really effective stuff, with a number of products ready-made for audio applications that might be worth a try.
A number of points made in my original post are unclear. Re: isolation and sound stage, I was saying that the cabinets resting directly on the hockey pucks ruined the sound stage because (I think) it did not allow the lateral mechanical vibrations to dissipate out of the cabinets. Not being a physicist, my best guess is that resting directly on the pucks caused mechanical vibrations to rebound back up into the cabinets and mess with the driver output, even though a lot of the excessive bass was reduced.
Inserting the aluminum cups into the pucks and then placing them under the spikes restored the sound stage and instrument separation to the (good) quality that had been achieved with cups and Magic Sliders -- but with the added benefit of a much better bass response and balance with the mids and highs. My thinking about the cups/pucks assembly was that the vibrations would travel through the spikes into the cups, which would allow that lateral energy to continue away from the cabinets, and would then be largely absorbed by the pucks instead of being transmitted directly into the floor.
I do believe I hear an audible, overall improvement over the best arrangement I had achieved before trying the hockey pucks.
Of course I've measured none of this, so your suggestion is well taken. I've started reading Ray Alden's Speaker Building 201, which covers measurement and suggests free/commercial software. I might pick up an inexpensive microphone and try taking measurements once I think I understand the mathematics a little better.
A number of points made in my original post are unclear. Re: isolation and sound stage, I was saying that the cabinets resting directly on the hockey pucks ruined the sound stage because (I think) it did not allow the lateral mechanical vibrations to dissipate out of the cabinets. Not being a physicist, my best guess is that resting directly on the pucks caused mechanical vibrations to rebound back up into the cabinets and mess with the driver output, even though a lot of the excessive bass was reduced.
Inserting the aluminum cups into the pucks and then placing them under the spikes restored the sound stage and instrument separation to the (good) quality that had been achieved with cups and Magic Sliders -- but with the added benefit of a much better bass response and balance with the mids and highs. My thinking about the cups/pucks assembly was that the vibrations would travel through the spikes into the cups, which would allow that lateral energy to continue away from the cabinets, and would then be largely absorbed by the pucks instead of being transmitted directly into the floor.
I do believe I hear an audible, overall improvement over the best arrangement I had achieved before trying the hockey pucks.
Of course I've measured none of this, so your suggestion is well taken. I've started reading Ray Alden's Speaker Building 201, which covers measurement and suggests free/commercial software. I might pick up an inexpensive microphone and try taking measurements once I think I understand the mathematics a little better.
Cost constrained mic is Panasonic WM61A capsule - same OEM used by many calibrated mics. $2ea.
Or buy a calibrated Dayton UMM-6 for $70. Go USB and not deal with sound card calibration or noise pickup.
Download REW software for free. Best free software - amazing it is free actually.
Or buy a calibrated Dayton UMM-6 for $70. Go USB and not deal with sound card calibration or noise pickup.
Download REW software for free. Best free software - amazing it is free actually.
jdourin,
I had a similar problem with setting my parents hifi up in their new conservatory a few years ago with a 3/8" Oak (solid) clip together floor. The guy who laid the floor put it down over 34mm of foam first, 25mm of insulating foam and 3 layers of 3mm laminate backing.
I didn't bother with trying to find cute ways to stop the 'drum skin' effect (as Bare describes it), it reared its head, I made longer spikes then caused outrage by drilling through the oak / foam so I could spike to the concrete slab.
Problem solved in less than 40 mins and cost less than the way your heading..... though a measuring mic is an Investment (am waiting for mine to delivered).
I had a similar problem with setting my parents hifi up in their new conservatory a few years ago with a 3/8" Oak (solid) clip together floor. The guy who laid the floor put it down over 34mm of foam first, 25mm of insulating foam and 3 layers of 3mm laminate backing.
I didn't bother with trying to find cute ways to stop the 'drum skin' effect (as Bare describes it), it reared its head, I made longer spikes then caused outrage by drilling through the oak / foam so I could spike to the concrete slab.
Problem solved in less than 40 mins and cost less than the way your heading..... though a measuring mic is an Investment (am waiting for mine to delivered).
Interesting... I have hockey pucks under my 200LB (approximate) Horn speakers and I drilled a hole through them and screwed them to my cabinets. I originally tried sliders but when I was moing the speakers I found the speakers were moving, but not the sliders...which was a problem.