😕 I am going to undertake a once in a lifetime project and build some Line array loudspeakers. I have been studying the data and all the web information including Dr. Griffins work, threads on DiY and other AES papers on the web.
I am designing this for two channel stereo not AV and I already own 2 buggtussel transmission line subs that have adjustable active crossovers (12db &24db) plus phase, and frequency (35 to 200hz). They also have a parametric eq that can be used to help with nulls and hot spots.
I have decided on a 12x12 array and plan a box ht of 72+inches.]
I will use the Foundex 5" ribbon drivers with 12 per side (60"array).
Finally the question: What mid-woofers to use? I have narrowed it down to a few choices based on speed and dispersion with low distortion.
Eton 5" hexacone driver-$100
Seas Excel 5.5" Magnesium cone-$116
Peerless 6.5"hds paper doped cone-$69.50
Vifa PL14W 5" paper cone--$47
I plan to crossover between 2.5 - 1.8k
These are all fairly expensive running but all are of high quality. Has any other DIY used any of the above drivers in a line array.
I have read many threads where inexpensive drivers from parts express overstock were used but I have no way to compare the sound quality. I have also read Selah's and GR-research web sites and they use either 7"metal cones or other expensive drivers. I am planning a sealed cabinet (not ported or open)
I have some maggie 3.6r's which I enjoy and basically I want to keep what they do well (large image, good soundstage, transparent)but add more dynamics.
I have help with the cabinet design so that is not an issue, when in doubt brace more. Again my goal is a once in a lifetime design so I am willing to do the research. Buying Epiphany's at 14k or Maggie 20.1's at 12k is out of the question. I think I can do as good for less than 6k. I have Pass Aleph 1.2's that I built 6 years ago and I will use them or my Pass/tharagard 80w/ch amp that I built 10 years ago to power them. thanks, dave
I am designing this for two channel stereo not AV and I already own 2 buggtussel transmission line subs that have adjustable active crossovers (12db &24db) plus phase, and frequency (35 to 200hz). They also have a parametric eq that can be used to help with nulls and hot spots.
I have decided on a 12x12 array and plan a box ht of 72+inches.]
I will use the Foundex 5" ribbon drivers with 12 per side (60"array).
Finally the question: What mid-woofers to use? I have narrowed it down to a few choices based on speed and dispersion with low distortion.
Eton 5" hexacone driver-$100
Seas Excel 5.5" Magnesium cone-$116
Peerless 6.5"hds paper doped cone-$69.50
Vifa PL14W 5" paper cone--$47
I plan to crossover between 2.5 - 1.8k
These are all fairly expensive running but all are of high quality. Has any other DIY used any of the above drivers in a line array.
I have read many threads where inexpensive drivers from parts express overstock were used but I have no way to compare the sound quality. I have also read Selah's and GR-research web sites and they use either 7"metal cones or other expensive drivers. I am planning a sealed cabinet (not ported or open)
I have some maggie 3.6r's which I enjoy and basically I want to keep what they do well (large image, good soundstage, transparent)but add more dynamics.
I have help with the cabinet design so that is not an issue, when in doubt brace more. Again my goal is a once in a lifetime design so I am willing to do the research. Buying Epiphany's at 14k or Maggie 20.1's at 12k is out of the question. I think I can do as good for less than 6k. I have Pass Aleph 1.2's that I built 6 years ago and I will use them or my Pass/tharagard 80w/ch amp that I built 10 years ago to power them. thanks, dave
Dave,
It looks like you're set on a line array and prepared to spend a lot of money doing it. I noticed that you've mentioned PE's cheap drivers, and I'm guessing that the're the 49 cent NSB 4 inch drivers. Why don't you buy a handful of them and try them out, some stock and some modified. Modding these drivers can make a profound difference, especially after doping the cones and adding phase plugs.
Personally, I wouldn't use anything over 3 inches (2 inches is even better) for a line array and if you get the right drivers, you may not need tweeters. I'm not sure what your goals are, do you want a "social" speaker that sounds pretty good in a wide listening area, or are these to be used primarily for your own use and you demand superior sound at "your" listening position. All speakers are a collection of compromises, you just have to figure what your priorities are.
Using expensive drivers is no guarantee that you will end up with better than average sound. Many of the design parameters of the expensive drivers that account for the higher price, such as high power handling, reduced distortion, controlled cone breakup and etc., are of little importance when considering a line array and may cause a compromised sound compared to a cheaper, simpler driver design.
I would encourage you to take a very close look at some of the small (3 inch or less) fullrange drivers before considering larger and more expensive drivers that will not, IMHO, give you as good performance even if you're able to overcome all their inherent disadvantages.
There are many that may not agree, but it works for me.
Best Regards,
TerryO
It looks like you're set on a line array and prepared to spend a lot of money doing it. I noticed that you've mentioned PE's cheap drivers, and I'm guessing that the're the 49 cent NSB 4 inch drivers. Why don't you buy a handful of them and try them out, some stock and some modified. Modding these drivers can make a profound difference, especially after doping the cones and adding phase plugs.
Personally, I wouldn't use anything over 3 inches (2 inches is even better) for a line array and if you get the right drivers, you may not need tweeters. I'm not sure what your goals are, do you want a "social" speaker that sounds pretty good in a wide listening area, or are these to be used primarily for your own use and you demand superior sound at "your" listening position. All speakers are a collection of compromises, you just have to figure what your priorities are.
Using expensive drivers is no guarantee that you will end up with better than average sound. Many of the design parameters of the expensive drivers that account for the higher price, such as high power handling, reduced distortion, controlled cone breakup and etc., are of little importance when considering a line array and may cause a compromised sound compared to a cheaper, simpler driver design.
I would encourage you to take a very close look at some of the small (3 inch or less) fullrange drivers before considering larger and more expensive drivers that will not, IMHO, give you as good performance even if you're able to overcome all their inherent disadvantages.
There are many that may not agree, but it works for me.
Best Regards,
TerryO
Good drivers all. As you have a couple of subs to handle the lows, I'd suggest you also check out the Vifa PW13 5.5" mid-bass, as used in Lynn Olson's Ariel Transmission Lines. Less bass than the others, but that's what your subs are for, high sensitivity, which is always good to have, and, unlike just about every other mid-bass driver available (still, after 10 years +!) it requires no eq at all, and only a minimal crossover. One of the most transparent drivers ever made, regardless of price.
line array speaker project
Terry O, If I could find some of these cheaper drivers with the right parameters some R&D would be helpfull. There are just so many to choose from so where do you start. My goals are great sound for a stereo system and not AV, the system will be in a big room which allows others to enjoy. I don't listen at rocket ship take off levels but I do enjoy dynamics. You are correct in that I don't want much distortion and looking at driver specs for the less expensive drivers (especially chinese) that distortion is spec't
at 5-7%. The drivers I mentioned are really for stand alone use but have been used by others in line arrays here in the midwest with good results. If you have some model numbers I would be happy to test them for consideration-thanks again
Terry O, If I could find some of these cheaper drivers with the right parameters some R&D would be helpfull. There are just so many to choose from so where do you start. My goals are great sound for a stereo system and not AV, the system will be in a big room which allows others to enjoy. I don't listen at rocket ship take off levels but I do enjoy dynamics. You are correct in that I don't want much distortion and looking at driver specs for the less expensive drivers (especially chinese) that distortion is spec't
at 5-7%. The drivers I mentioned are really for stand alone use but have been used by others in line arrays here in the midwest with good results. If you have some model numbers I would be happy to test them for consideration-thanks again
line array speaker project
Scottmoose, the vifa line here is quite popular and there is a company called Meniscus Audio that sells the line so I will see if I can get a PL 13 to test in my rig. thanks, daly2k
Scottmoose, the vifa line here is quite popular and there is a company called Meniscus Audio that sells the line so I will see if I can get a PL 13 to test in my rig. thanks, daly2k
daly2k said:
Dave,
It appears to me reading this "12x12" that you plan to build two square arrays each consisiting of 144 FR drivers . If this is the case you I really do suggest serious R&D with cheap FR drivers like the NSB's. It would not make sense to commit as much as $30K in drivers alone to a highly experimental design.
I have an idea to try an array not unlike this myself and have the suitable driver inventory already in stock. I just have way too much already on my plate and have some smaller, perhaps more practical speaker design ideas to try first.
Don't be quick to dismiss the open baffle dipole concept design. It eliminates one of the biggest bugaboos of conventional speaker boxes, that being cabinet coloration. The results in even a simple, low cost lash-up can be remarkable.
Luck,
Rob
I would contact Rick Craig at Selah for advice, if you are considering using such expensive drivers. He designed my speakers using the fountek ribbons and the dayton RS drivers which i think makes a phenomenal combo. If you dont want to spend $116 on the seas, I would definitely look into the dayton RS at $25 a piece as a replacement. If cost is no object then hey go for the seas, but im not sure that 5x the price is worth the little difference in quality. The other thing I would consider is what type of equipment and music you will be using/playing. If you try to play mp3's that are poor quality the aluminum drivers will really show it and it doesnt sound very good. I think If you were to use paper cones instead they would sound better in this case.
Dave stated:
Finding the right drivers is really the trick. On my focused array speakers, I used Radio Shack 2 inch close-out speakers that cost me about $1.00 each. Dan Wiggins measured them and found that their FR was 1.5 dB plus or minus from 275 Hz to 20KHz. They're a great sounding little unit, but as you might suspect, a single driver just won't play very loud. However with 12 per side they have great dynamics with very little strain, the Reviewers use the term "effortless" which actually seems to be appropriate. No crossover at all and because they're in a focused array, no phase problems either. Those drivers are long gone, but there are several 3 inch drivers that have been touted as sounding "very" good on this and other forums. If I get some time later today I'll see what I can come up with.
If you have a large room and want wide coverage with dynamics and minimal distortion there is another path. I'm reluctant to use a four letter word in this august forum, but being the plebian I am at heart, I will anyway. The four letter word? Horn. I'm sure that many will offer an opinion on horns, some well founded, some based on little more than something they read somewhere.
I believe that in a "well designed" horn system, the advantages of absolutely minimal distortion, extraordinary dynamics and outstanding sensitivity coupled with the ability to tailor the directivity give them a lot of pluses. The minuses? Well, what always bugged me was the time and phase differences between a Bass Horn and the midrange. In my K-Horns (long gone) the difference was several feet. With the advent of cheaper, better, etc., digital delays it may be possible to eliminate what has always been a major problem. It also allows you the freedom to use some of the low powered tube or solid state amps that really have excellent sound , but are incapable of driving "normal" speakers.
I wouldn't usually go on for so long, but you seem be sincere in your quest for an outstanding system, so I felt obligated to mention some options (like Horns) that are often overlooked. I don't have any horns myself due to the fact that I don't have enough house and too many kids. Actually the kids are OK, I just have a small house so space is a prime consideration. If your circumstances are different, then you have few limits standing between you and your goal.
Anyhow, these are just some thoughts, hope some of it is useful.
Best Regards,
TerryO
Finding the right drivers is really the trick. On my focused array speakers, I used Radio Shack 2 inch close-out speakers that cost me about $1.00 each. Dan Wiggins measured them and found that their FR was 1.5 dB plus or minus from 275 Hz to 20KHz. They're a great sounding little unit, but as you might suspect, a single driver just won't play very loud. However with 12 per side they have great dynamics with very little strain, the Reviewers use the term "effortless" which actually seems to be appropriate. No crossover at all and because they're in a focused array, no phase problems either. Those drivers are long gone, but there are several 3 inch drivers that have been touted as sounding "very" good on this and other forums. If I get some time later today I'll see what I can come up with.
If you have a large room and want wide coverage with dynamics and minimal distortion there is another path. I'm reluctant to use a four letter word in this august forum, but being the plebian I am at heart, I will anyway. The four letter word? Horn. I'm sure that many will offer an opinion on horns, some well founded, some based on little more than something they read somewhere.
I believe that in a "well designed" horn system, the advantages of absolutely minimal distortion, extraordinary dynamics and outstanding sensitivity coupled with the ability to tailor the directivity give them a lot of pluses. The minuses? Well, what always bugged me was the time and phase differences between a Bass Horn and the midrange. In my K-Horns (long gone) the difference was several feet. With the advent of cheaper, better, etc., digital delays it may be possible to eliminate what has always been a major problem. It also allows you the freedom to use some of the low powered tube or solid state amps that really have excellent sound , but are incapable of driving "normal" speakers.
I wouldn't usually go on for so long, but you seem be sincere in your quest for an outstanding system, so I felt obligated to mention some options (like Horns) that are often overlooked. I don't have any horns myself due to the fact that I don't have enough house and too many kids. Actually the kids are OK, I just have a small house so space is a prime consideration. If your circumstances are different, then you have few limits standing between you and your goal.
Anyhow, these are just some thoughts, hope some of it is useful.
Best Regards,
TerryO
I would throw the dayton rs125 or the seas L12/15 and possibly the aura ns3 into the mix. They all have the xmax and low distortion.
Personally, I'd go with the dayton rs125 or the aura ns3 + customed built ribbons. It would considerably cut the cost down and you can save that $ toward something else.
Just a suggestion, if you want a wide stage, consider a dipole array.
Personally, I'd go with the dayton rs125 or the aura ns3 + customed built ribbons. It would considerably cut the cost down and you can save that $ toward something else.
Just a suggestion, if you want a wide stage, consider a dipole array.
Since you're going to spend the bucks, I'd go with the CSS WR125ST and use 16 per side for your 72" line. Ultimately it will give you the most flexibility in achieving outstanding results. The closer spacing allowed by the line array frame and a driver with a very wide range of FR will permit you to cross low or high, or even run the mids full range and and use a simple first order on the tweets.
I too would highly recommend splitting a sheet of plywood in half and giving them a shot on OB before closing them up in a box. It's a real eye opener, especially since you have the low bass covered already.
I too would highly recommend splitting a sheet of plywood in half and giving them a shot on OB before closing them up in a box. It's a real eye opener, especially since you have the low bass covered already.
Dear RCAvictim, my 12x12 means 12 tweeters and 12 mids per side so it will be 48 total drivers. Sorry for the mix up
JohninCR--I will try to find you suggested driver specs on the web and yes I will experiement with an open baffle, I do intend to listen to some various drivers in a two way box that I built years ago just to get some sense on how they sound, I have an electronic cross over that I built which I will use to experiement with the driver testing but I will build passive crossovers.
Terry O--horns are my next project, I have been reading about them in Audioxpress and the cabinent work scares me a bit as I don't have all the wood working tools. Really I made the decision on the line arrays because the box is a straight forward design for me. T-lines were considered but again the box design was more challenging. I feel more comfortable with drivers and electronics. I absolutely will start collecting less expensive drivers to test but I have not found these magical $1-- 3"-4" drivers yet. I am getting some Silver Flute drivers from Miniscus to try out which are made in China! By the way I have built all my electronics, Borbely tube design phono and pre amp, and Pass Aleph's-daly2k
JustinC--got a Parts express catalog and they carry the dayton drivers, I am investigating. I have talked to Selah audio-great people and have talked to some of their customers, who all have been very happy and if I can get down to a driver choice they can help me. I have Aleph 1.2 amps and tube balanced line stage and phono stage. I built all of these from schematics published in AudioXpress and the Pass Labs web site. I am currently using Maggie 3.6r's but I would like more dynamics than these speakers can provide. Daly2k
JohninCR--I will try to find you suggested driver specs on the web and yes I will experiement with an open baffle, I do intend to listen to some various drivers in a two way box that I built years ago just to get some sense on how they sound, I have an electronic cross over that I built which I will use to experiement with the driver testing but I will build passive crossovers.
Terry O--horns are my next project, I have been reading about them in Audioxpress and the cabinent work scares me a bit as I don't have all the wood working tools. Really I made the decision on the line arrays because the box is a straight forward design for me. T-lines were considered but again the box design was more challenging. I feel more comfortable with drivers and electronics. I absolutely will start collecting less expensive drivers to test but I have not found these magical $1-- 3"-4" drivers yet. I am getting some Silver Flute drivers from Miniscus to try out which are made in China! By the way I have built all my electronics, Borbely tube design phono and pre amp, and Pass Aleph's-daly2k
JustinC--got a Parts express catalog and they carry the dayton drivers, I am investigating. I have talked to Selah audio-great people and have talked to some of their customers, who all have been very happy and if I can get down to a driver choice they can help me. I have Aleph 1.2 amps and tube balanced line stage and phono stage. I built all of these from schematics published in AudioXpress and the Pass Labs web site. I am currently using Maggie 3.6r's but I would like more dynamics than these speakers can provide. Daly2k
The answer you seek is a very easy one.
If you are going to -> undertake a once in a lifetime project
and you know you want the Fountek 5" ribbon, then you already
made a list of midwoofer driver candidates;
Eton 5" hexacone driver-$100
Seas Excel 5.5" Magnesium cone-$116
Peerless 6.5"hds paper doped cone-$69.50
Vifa PL14W 5" paper cone--$47
... so, a lifetime project deserves a R&D budget to guarantee
that you won't make any error, therefore the answer is;
By one Fountek and one of each midwoofer candidate and do
some synergy testing. Hook it up on the 'test bench' and do
some auditions to see which midwoofer gives you the best SQ
for the crossover frequency chosen mated to the Fountek.
Keep, return, or resell the unused drivers.
This remove any future doubt.
Driver budget is? If you can go higher in midwoofer budget
I'd look into PHL1340 {or 1240 as it's 16 ohm}, 6.5".
If you are going to -> undertake a once in a lifetime project
and you know you want the Fountek 5" ribbon, then you already
made a list of midwoofer driver candidates;
Eton 5" hexacone driver-$100
Seas Excel 5.5" Magnesium cone-$116
Peerless 6.5"hds paper doped cone-$69.50
Vifa PL14W 5" paper cone--$47
... so, a lifetime project deserves a R&D budget to guarantee
that you won't make any error, therefore the answer is;
By one Fountek and one of each midwoofer candidate and do
some synergy testing. Hook it up on the 'test bench' and do
some auditions to see which midwoofer gives you the best SQ
for the crossover frequency chosen mated to the Fountek.
Keep, return, or resell the unused drivers.
This remove any future doubt.
Driver budget is? If you can go higher in midwoofer budget
I'd look into PHL1340 {or 1240 as it's 16 ohm}, 6.5".
Daly
I would without question look to making a DIY ribbon
you could easily make one that's around 55" in a nice steel frame that would perform just as good as all those fountek's... but be around $4000 cheaper overall
this would offer you quite a bit of ability to change efficency, low end etc all to your personal tastes with the design... and that one day you burn up a ribbon or one tears... you can just replace it for a minute cost cause you will already have all the parts
😉
I would without question look to making a DIY ribbon
you could easily make one that's around 55" in a nice steel frame that would perform just as good as all those fountek's... but be around $4000 cheaper overall
this would offer you quite a bit of ability to change efficency, low end etc all to your personal tastes with the design... and that one day you burn up a ribbon or one tears... you can just replace it for a minute cost cause you will already have all the parts
😉
The new Peerless 4" or 5" might be worth listening to. With the cut sides you will be able to get them very close together, and the x-o would be very simple.
The old hds 5" (850488) is a very nice driver !!
And do investigate using the mids in an open back cabinet, you will notice the difference !!
My arrays actually have a 2" thick poly wadding layer behind the drivers, but are still open back. I'm using the Vifa P11WH x10 each side + a single Vifa DX25 with 2 component x-o, active x-o to bass units.
Very nice to listen to !!!
The old hds 5" (850488) is a very nice driver !!
And do investigate using the mids in an open back cabinet, you will notice the difference !!
My arrays actually have a 2" thick poly wadding layer behind the drivers, but are still open back. I'm using the Vifa P11WH x10 each side + a single Vifa DX25 with 2 component x-o, active x-o to bass units.
Very nice to listen to !!!
I am wondering if this Audax driver might work in an open baffle line array. Paper cone has a natural sound. The price is good. Would this be a good choice? Does anyone have experience with this driver?
Audax AP170M0 Shielded 6.5" paper cone.
http://www.madisound.com/pdf/audax/ap170m0.pdf
t
Audax AP170M0 Shielded 6.5" paper cone.
http://www.madisound.com/pdf/audax/ap170m0.pdf
t
Scottmoose said:
Keep in mind there are 2 versions of this driver. the one Lynn uses and another that gives up a bit of bottom (a no care in your case) for an even smoother top end.
For a 3" i've not seen anything better than the Aura NS3 (a very pretty driver too... listening to a pair as we speak).
The WR125 was my 1st thought when i looked at your list, so i 2nd JohninCR's suggestion. The 16 ohm ST version has the trimmed basket exactly for reducing centre-to-centre spacing in line arrays.
The new FR/WR 125 datasheets can be downloaded here:
http://p10hifi.net/tlinespeakers/FAL/downloads/WR-FR125-measurements.pdf
http://p10hifi.net/tlinespeakers/FAL/downloads/WR-FR125-tech.pdf
A "tweeter" that i don't see mentioned hardly at all, that is the 1st thing that pops into my head when i think od arrarys is the Newform Research. A pair of 30" units would do and they give more XO flexibility being able to reach down to 1k.
Given the amount of money you plan to invest in this, biamping should be a very serious consideration.
dave
tomcat9 said:
It has some significant ringing up high -- unexpected for a paper cone. When i see that sort of thing i usually go looking elsewhere.
dave
Guys, I have recently completed a new array with 12 CSS WR125S and 9 Aurum Cantus G3i-130 ribbon drivers. It is actively crossed (DEQX crossover). Very good sound. You don't need the truncated WR125ST driver if you crossover low enough (say in the 2000 Hz area) as the center to center spacing is tight enough with the round flange. I'll post more detail in the next few days and demo the unit at the Dayton, OH DIY Speaker event this weekend.
An mentioned above, if you are seriously considering an array with top notch drivers be sure to contact Rick Craig at Selah Audio (www.selahaudio.com) for help.
Jim
An mentioned above, if you are seriously considering an array with top notch drivers be sure to contact Rick Craig at Selah Audio (www.selahaudio.com) for help.
Jim
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