hi all,
anybody tried Linkwitz Pluto speaker. it looks quite simple to build. no much carpentry work. but the drivers used in original Pluto are very expensive (for me atleast). so i am searching for a possible alternate drivers which can be used in Pluto. however if it makes using Aura tweeter a must (as i read that Aura tweeter actually inspired to design Pluto), then i will go for this one, but if possible i would like find an alternate driver for woofer. please help me regarding this.
regards,
pranam
anybody tried Linkwitz Pluto speaker. it looks quite simple to build. no much carpentry work. but the drivers used in original Pluto are very expensive (for me atleast). so i am searching for a possible alternate drivers which can be used in Pluto. however if it makes using Aura tweeter a must (as i read that Aura tweeter actually inspired to design Pluto), then i will go for this one, but if possible i would like find an alternate driver for woofer. please help me regarding this.
regards,
pranam
if you really want to experiment before building pluto proper have a look at Gainphiles website and 6.283's website:
Platon
Gainphile:
Gainphile: Linkwitz Pluto ... sewer pipe omni-directional loudspeakers
Personally I would strongly recommend building Pluto to the correct specification with the proper bass mid driver (which is excellent VFM) the proper manual, PCB's and full design spec with the recommended 1% tolerance components.
Mr Linkwitz is still working on some new PCB boards for the analogue equalized crossover and amp's Pluto uses. This will use new (currently available) components.
Components for Pluto have to be extremely tight tolerance or you need to extensively test wider tolerance components, this means high quality and relatively expensive testing equipement.
Some people have attempted to model Pluto with dsp systems with some limited success.
Save up, it is worth it.
Have fun with it. 🙂
Platon
Gainphile:
Gainphile: Linkwitz Pluto ... sewer pipe omni-directional loudspeakers
Personally I would strongly recommend building Pluto to the correct specification with the proper bass mid driver (which is excellent VFM) the proper manual, PCB's and full design spec with the recommended 1% tolerance components.
Mr Linkwitz is still working on some new PCB boards for the analogue equalized crossover and amp's Pluto uses. This will use new (currently available) components.
Components for Pluto have to be extremely tight tolerance or you need to extensively test wider tolerance components, this means high quality and relatively expensive testing equipement.
Some people have attempted to model Pluto with dsp systems with some limited success.
Save up, it is worth it.
Have fun with it. 🙂
If you are a "sound novice", it would be good to purchase plans. The PCB is definitely recommended even if you attempt to devise your construction plans from information on the web site.
Go with the genuine SL Pluto...he does an incredible job of refining the performance based on the drivers he chooses. You are highly unlikely to get anywhere close to Pluto's potential if you start fiddling with alternate drivers to save money. Once you consider the time and expense that will go into the build you will realize the false economy of trying to save on the drivers.
Pranam,
Kevin is bang on.
Pluto is a highly refined speaker. It would most definately be a false economy trying to save a little money on the drive units. Once you do this you really have to revoice the speaker, this is definately not trivial even with a passive crossover, an active analogue crossover will be far more involved. Quite a nightmare really, perhaps even for a seasoned pro.
You simply could not receive enough help from the users here to achieve comparable quality, it does not work that way.
The current drive unit wasn't just chosen off the shelf option (as in the first version of Pluto) it was actually designed specifically for Pluto.
SEAS Prestige L16RN-SL (H1480) 5" Aluminum Cone Woofer: Madisound Speaker Store
If you are a speaker novice the proper plans, drive units and PCB's are essential, if you are a seasoned DIY expert (with some understanding of what is involved) then you will know for yourself that having these things is a really good idea.
Kevin is bang on.
Pluto is a highly refined speaker. It would most definately be a false economy trying to save a little money on the drive units. Once you do this you really have to revoice the speaker, this is definately not trivial even with a passive crossover, an active analogue crossover will be far more involved. Quite a nightmare really, perhaps even for a seasoned pro.
You simply could not receive enough help from the users here to achieve comparable quality, it does not work that way.
The current drive unit wasn't just chosen off the shelf option (as in the first version of Pluto) it was actually designed specifically for Pluto.
SEAS Prestige L16RN-SL (H1480) 5" Aluminum Cone Woofer: Madisound Speaker Store
If you are a speaker novice the proper plans, drive units and PCB's are essential, if you are a seasoned DIY expert (with some understanding of what is involved) then you will know for yourself that having these things is a really good idea.
I totally agree with Rob and Kevin. I build Plutos (and will probably build Orions) because having heard both, I found them so superior to what I could/might do that it was laughable to consider trying to create my own wheel. I've only heard a couple (extremely expensive) commercial systems that challenge them.
Another thought on purchasing plans: Consider the plans as compensation to Siegfried for the use of his design. It's really a tiny amount in the project budget with the added benefit of saving you significant effort.
Another thought on purchasing plans: Consider the plans as compensation to Siegfried for the use of his design. It's really a tiny amount in the project budget with the added benefit of saving you significant effort.
You know, I looked to find an equivalent driver for less, but I couldn't find one. I thought it would be easy. This was several months ago, but I doubt you'd have much better luck now.
I think it would be hard to duplicate the performance SL has come up with. If you find a way, please let me know.
Dan
I think it would be hard to duplicate the performance SL has come up with. If you find a way, please let me know.
Dan
i am sure with alternate drivers i will be compromising on the sound quality compared to what SL has achieved but i will be happy with 'acceptable' performance. i would still like to continue my hunt for alternate drivers. may be i will have to change bit of active xover design or change the xover points. this would be more of an experimentation/learning project for me.
if i want to search for an equivalent woofer/tweeter then what specifications i should be looking for?
if i want to search for an equivalent woofer/tweeter then what specifications i should be looking for?
Pranam,
I think what needs to be said has been said. Pluto looks easy for a beginner. In fact it is full of smart details that a speaker novice will likely not understand or not even recognize. So every slight deviation from the original could compromise the outcome if you are not sure what you are doing.
Please also understand that everybody, who is helping you with this, would be border-lining SL's Terms and Conditions.
I think what needs to be said has been said. Pluto looks easy for a beginner. In fact it is full of smart details that a speaker novice will likely not understand or not even recognize. So every slight deviation from the original could compromise the outcome if you are not sure what you are doing.
Please also understand that everybody, who is helping you with this, would be border-lining SL's Terms and Conditions.
There are 2 paths;
- Build a set properly, finish, enjoy... Maybe share photos. That means getting proper SL build. "Music" is the hobby.
- The darkside: build, listen, build again...and again ... and again ... and again. 😀. Here, it's not practical to build using the kit. A DSP unit like MiniDSP is more proper. But you really need at least a basic measurement tool. "Building Loudspeakers" is the hobby.
btw. All drivers have limits. It's just a matter of working within the boundaries of those limits. And accept its flaws.
You're not in australia? ... if so, my "Pluto" uses dicksmith woofer ($28 a pair). They do unbelievable bass.
its good to know some one has tried different woofers!
while selecting disksmith woofers what factors/driver specs you considered?
They were not really something that I chose, I just happen to have them.
The specific requirement for a deep-bass pluto is xmax and low Fs really. Knowing it's active the low-end response can be adjusted with LT filter.
You'd find it really hard to get alternative of L16-SL, regardless of cost.
how about going for a bigger woofer say 6.5" or 8" with high xmax and low Fs. L16-SL is having Fs of 40hz. i have seen 8" woofer with around 45hz Fs. how much min.xmax do you prefer?
If 8" is desired, then the crossover point needs to be lowered, let's say 0.5*344/0.2=860hz.
Perhaps the Aura is ok to do this, or perhaps not which then you'd want a 3-way omni. This becomes impractical, and a normal pluto + subs will be more elegant.
Perhaps the Aura is ok to do this, or perhaps not which then you'd want a 3-way omni. This becomes impractical, and a normal pluto + subs will be more elegant.
0.5*344/0.2=860hz.......!?
please explain this formula
going 3-way will deviate from pluto design. pluto+sub surely makes sense then.
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try some "tubes" 😉
my take on a similar construction. 4" dia. X 37" long. (tuned frequency 92Hz.). The apparent bass is at least one full octave lower, so good to about 45 Hz. in-room.
Inexpensive (but good) Vifa co-axial drivers, purchased from ApexJr ), cheap 2nd order passive cross-over (Polk Audio units from ePay), PVC pipe lined with thin hardwood flooring "underlay" foam, stuffed with Dacron.
No, not Plutos but very impressive for what they are. See a pix here (third pix down). I intend to attach a plastic sphere above the driver, as per the Duevel Planet loudspeakers, or a conical reflector (think like a large paper cup). I have the spheres, and can make the "cups".
Including everything, much less than CAD$100.00 a pair. about as simple as it can get. The biggest hassle is creating a plinth for them to be anchored to and then raising that off the floor.
my take on a similar construction. 4" dia. X 37" long. (tuned frequency 92Hz.). The apparent bass is at least one full octave lower, so good to about 45 Hz. in-room.
Inexpensive (but good) Vifa co-axial drivers, purchased from ApexJr ), cheap 2nd order passive cross-over (Polk Audio units from ePay), PVC pipe lined with thin hardwood flooring "underlay" foam, stuffed with Dacron.
No, not Plutos but very impressive for what they are. See a pix here (third pix down). I intend to attach a plastic sphere above the driver, as per the Duevel Planet loudspeakers, or a conical reflector (think like a large paper cup). I have the spheres, and can make the "cups".
Including everything, much less than CAD$100.00 a pair. about as simple as it can get. The biggest hassle is creating a plinth for them to be anchored to and then raising that off the floor.
Pluto is meant to be a small point source, this means keeping the driver and enclosure as small as possible while maximizing bass performance.
The Bass mid driver should be at least as small as the Seas linkwitz driver or go for something even smaller and marry this to a seperate bass driver for three way option.
This way you could intentionally build the speaker as a three way and use a 4 inch drive unit.
8 inch will require a greater listening distance. This will mean you will be listening to more of the room, less of the direct sound. Generally conisdered not a good idea. At this point maybe better to consider dipoles.
You could go for a 6 1/2 inch bass mid, the jack of all trades option. You will have to extensive re-equalize the Aura tweeter driver for this. Inevitably it will not be a smooth when pushed harder at lower frequencies, especially where the drivers output is more ragged anyway. This will also reduce the ultimate output capability as you require more xmax from the tweeter the lower you drive it.
The Bass mid driver should be at least as small as the Seas linkwitz driver or go for something even smaller and marry this to a seperate bass driver for three way option.
This way you could intentionally build the speaker as a three way and use a 4 inch drive unit.
8 inch will require a greater listening distance. This will mean you will be listening to more of the room, less of the direct sound. Generally conisdered not a good idea. At this point maybe better to consider dipoles.
You could go for a 6 1/2 inch bass mid, the jack of all trades option. You will have to extensive re-equalize the Aura tweeter driver for this. Inevitably it will not be a smooth when pushed harder at lower frequencies, especially where the drivers output is more ragged anyway. This will also reduce the ultimate output capability as you require more xmax from the tweeter the lower you drive it.
SL's terms and conditions...6.283
All: My "wannabees" or ("tubes") are my own take on a PVC type enclosure. This type of enclosure had been used by DIYers prior to SL's Pluto build. Originally I had planned on using 4" heavy cardboard tubing as I believe the dampening properties would out perform the PVC pipe. I am still trying to procure some. If an actual "knock off" of the Pluto is being suggested, then I would agree whole-heartedly: one ought to pay the price, even for the manual/plans and respect Siegfried Linkwitz's intellectual property. But furthermore, don't worry if you want to try something mounted in a pipe. Whether Sonotube, PVC pipe or cardboard, find some sort of tubing that you have access to. Find some drivers and a crossover that can work together and with a convenient length tube to work with those drivers. Choose components that are in your desired budget range and available to you, and try it yourself. Can't get much simpler than that. In the end one gets more satisfaction designing and building one's own design. If you want Plutos, buy 'em.
In my case I came across the little Vifa coaxials, and sought a project to build. I based my build on similar dimensions, but came to it independently of SL's design. I think the "toobz" or "Laying Pipe with Audio Lego" located at t-linepeakers were more of an influence.
My "Spirit" loudspeakers are a direct visual clone of the Orions, but they are conceptually different, using a sealed Sub and enclosure with a plate amp, and a fullrange driver instead of a tweeter/mid-bass compliment. The fullrange drivers are powered from a main stereo amplifier, while each of the two subs is driven by it's own plate amp/cross-over. I did contact SL directly who stated he was OK with me calling them the "Spirit of Orion" loudspeakers, as long as I did not try to suggest that they were in fact Orions or similar in performance. As I have never heard a pair of Orions, I can't comment on that. I've truncated the project name to "the Spirits" so as to not suggest in any way, that the performance or result is on par with SL's design, I just really liked the aesthetics of the Orions. In "spirit" they may appear to be similar, but in design and implementation they are not. The only actual detail (other than the aesthetics, and credit for that belongs to SL's wife) that is similar is that the Spirits use a fullrage driver, and the Orion uses a tweeter/mid-bass pair, both mounted on a small OB. The subs/woofers are completely different types, SL's Orions having dual "W" frame whilst mine are 12" subwoofers designed for use with a 200 watt per channel amplifier and either a ported or sealed cabinet. Oh, and SL's design has way more specialized electronics that is beyond the scope of pretty much everyone else out there. The specialized/custom electronics is what makes SL's projects significant and I am sure one of the reasons his designs perform above their weight class.
All: My "wannabees" or ("tubes") are my own take on a PVC type enclosure. This type of enclosure had been used by DIYers prior to SL's Pluto build. Originally I had planned on using 4" heavy cardboard tubing as I believe the dampening properties would out perform the PVC pipe. I am still trying to procure some. If an actual "knock off" of the Pluto is being suggested, then I would agree whole-heartedly: one ought to pay the price, even for the manual/plans and respect Siegfried Linkwitz's intellectual property. But furthermore, don't worry if you want to try something mounted in a pipe. Whether Sonotube, PVC pipe or cardboard, find some sort of tubing that you have access to. Find some drivers and a crossover that can work together and with a convenient length tube to work with those drivers. Choose components that are in your desired budget range and available to you, and try it yourself. Can't get much simpler than that. In the end one gets more satisfaction designing and building one's own design. If you want Plutos, buy 'em.
In my case I came across the little Vifa coaxials, and sought a project to build. I based my build on similar dimensions, but came to it independently of SL's design. I think the "toobz" or "Laying Pipe with Audio Lego" located at t-linepeakers were more of an influence.
My "Spirit" loudspeakers are a direct visual clone of the Orions, but they are conceptually different, using a sealed Sub and enclosure with a plate amp, and a fullrange driver instead of a tweeter/mid-bass compliment. The fullrange drivers are powered from a main stereo amplifier, while each of the two subs is driven by it's own plate amp/cross-over. I did contact SL directly who stated he was OK with me calling them the "Spirit of Orion" loudspeakers, as long as I did not try to suggest that they were in fact Orions or similar in performance. As I have never heard a pair of Orions, I can't comment on that. I've truncated the project name to "the Spirits" so as to not suggest in any way, that the performance or result is on par with SL's design, I just really liked the aesthetics of the Orions. In "spirit" they may appear to be similar, but in design and implementation they are not. The only actual detail (other than the aesthetics, and credit for that belongs to SL's wife) that is similar is that the Spirits use a fullrage driver, and the Orion uses a tweeter/mid-bass pair, both mounted on a small OB. The subs/woofers are completely different types, SL's Orions having dual "W" frame whilst mine are 12" subwoofers designed for use with a 200 watt per channel amplifier and either a ported or sealed cabinet. Oh, and SL's design has way more specialized electronics that is beyond the scope of pretty much everyone else out there. The specialized/custom electronics is what makes SL's projects significant and I am sure one of the reasons his designs perform above their weight class.
Nanook,
I think you are being a little over protective. SL never lay any claim to Dipole designs or drive units in pipes. It sounds like your designs are extremely different.
Sl enjoys seeing his work influence other designers. This is entirely different to someone who may for instance, closely or exactly copy the crossover, use exactly the same drivers and configuration then market this as a commercial product!
I too would argue that it is only just and fair to pay SL a little respect and buy the proper pcb's and manual/plans for Pluto or Orion. They certainly are not expensive in the grand scheme.
I think you are being a little over protective. SL never lay any claim to Dipole designs or drive units in pipes. It sounds like your designs are extremely different.
Sl enjoys seeing his work influence other designers. This is entirely different to someone who may for instance, closely or exactly copy the crossover, use exactly the same drivers and configuration then market this as a commercial product!
I too would argue that it is only just and fair to pay SL a little respect and buy the proper pcb's and manual/plans for Pluto or Orion. They certainly are not expensive in the grand scheme.
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