Need to set up audio at an event venue.
Refined place. No raves. Just moderate but superb quality sound.
Owners want home audio sound quality.
100 x 30 feet room. Good brick building. Well insulated.
Tested vienna acoustics beethoven(4ohm) and a set of bowers and wilkins dm604 s3 (8ohm). Speakers will be hidden behind the wall or ceiling
I am thinking of hooking them up in series. So Total impedance is 12 ohm.
Power amp is yamaha mx1. 200 in 8 ohm. 260 in 4ohm 320 in 2ohm.
But because interior needs to stay clean of wiris I'll need to run 100-130 feet of wire.
I've read somewhere 50 feet is the max speaker wire length people should use.
On some tables and recomendations I've seen 10-12 gauge wire for 100 feet runs.
What issues should I foresee.. capacitance. Wire resistance. Working on minimizing wiRe length.
Thanks
Refined place. No raves. Just moderate but superb quality sound.
Owners want home audio sound quality.
100 x 30 feet room. Good brick building. Well insulated.
Tested vienna acoustics beethoven(4ohm) and a set of bowers and wilkins dm604 s3 (8ohm). Speakers will be hidden behind the wall or ceiling
I am thinking of hooking them up in series. So Total impedance is 12 ohm.
Power amp is yamaha mx1. 200 in 8 ohm. 260 in 4ohm 320 in 2ohm.
But because interior needs to stay clean of wiris I'll need to run 100-130 feet of wire.
I've read somewhere 50 feet is the max speaker wire length people should use.
On some tables and recomendations I've seen 10-12 gauge wire for 100 feet runs.
What issues should I foresee.. capacitance. Wire resistance. Working on minimizing wiRe length.
Thanks
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The speakers are about the same efficiency, but if connected in series they will differ in output.
If they are connected in parallel, you'll need heavier wire.
The wire will have about 0.3R total resistance for a 100 foot length, if standard #12 wire is used.
That should work well enough for the parallel connection.
Yes yes) basically bw 8ohm will be quieter. That's the idea. Center dance floor area will be vienna..bw a little farther from the center. Loudest is the center. Then quieter as u leave the center. And on the edge people need to talk and socialize.
Reason I want them in series is I want the amp to run cooler.. and make things very difficult for end user to screw up or blow up
Ok, then if connected in series, 100' (or more) of #16 wire should be ok.
Series connection of two different speaker systems will alter their sound,
so check out the results first.
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Interesting. How would thins normally alter sound.. I might do parallel.
If in series I'd think yamaha .will do 140 watts per channel into each 12 ohm
Vienna will get 93 watts.
Bw will get 47watts.
YAmana mx1 is too much power when just viennas are plugged in. Basically if it's bass heavy music woofers are moving too much and might start bottoming out. And that's at a little passed 12 o'clock( 1 -2 o'clock ) pre amp volume level.
Basically I want to avoid the chance of someone cranking volume up too high and damaging apeakers.
Actually bowers and wilkins will go on sale.
Will go with jvc sx-a3. 6ohm, smoother tweeter. 604 s3 is a little too harsh, metalic sounding. Good aluminum tweeter but in this space need sound that is not too burdensome. Laid back, warm.
So 10ohm per channel now. Around 170 watts per channel or 113watts for vienna . 57watts for jvc. Will definitely experiment series connection vs sound characteristics change
Will go with jvc sx-a3. 6ohm, smoother tweeter. 604 s3 is a little too harsh, metalic sounding. Good aluminum tweeter but in this space need sound that is not too burdensome. Laid back, warm.
So 10ohm per channel now. Around 170 watts per channel or 113watts for vienna . 57watts for jvc. Will definitely experiment series connection vs sound characteristics change
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Use a long interconnect and locate the amplifier beside the speaker.
The amp could use automated ON/OFF by detecting if signal is present.
If the environment is electrically noisy then look at using balanced impedance interconnects and a bal to unbal at/in the input to the amplifier.
The amp could use automated ON/OFF by detecting if signal is present.
If the environment is electrically noisy then look at using balanced impedance interconnects and a bal to unbal at/in the input to the amplifier.
This is down to operator training.
A back up to bad operators is to adopt some form of professional PA limiters that can be set up to prevent damage to the speakers.
Not clear, how many speakers do you have in total?
In principle, you can use exact same type speakers in series, impedance which varies all over the place in a real world speaker will match, track each other, so no big deal.
Do not put different speakers in series, it´s a mess you can´t control, avoid that.
Again: still not sure about how many of each type you have, but you may use 2 x 4 ohm speakers in series, in parallel with a single 8 ohm one, per channel .
That will give you a 4 ohm combined load, each speaker type will sound like if it were alone, and you can drive that through a long wire, as thick as you can.
Even if you end up with, say, 1 ohm resistance in series with a 4 ohm load, the sky won´t fall because of that, and I bet you can get lower resistance, I´m just stating a "worst case" possibility.
Will all speakers receive same power? No.
Are there technically better ways to solve this? Yes.
But you have what you have, this suggestion makes best use with what´s available and with a minimum complication.
Strongly agree with idea of adding some kind of limiter to the system.
Nothing will happen while refined customers use the place, but any day it can be rented for some party and a heavy handed DJ can blow it to pieces.
In theory worst would be sending 130W into the 8 ohms speakers (pair 4 ohm ones in series would share power, so no big deal) and it might stand that kind of power .... while clean ..... heavily overdrive the amplifier and he´ll nuke al tweeters for sure, probably a couple midrange too.
A properly set limiter which never ever lets the amp clip will be a lifesaver.
In principle, you can use exact same type speakers in series, impedance which varies all over the place in a real world speaker will match, track each other, so no big deal.
Do not put different speakers in series, it´s a mess you can´t control, avoid that.
Again: still not sure about how many of each type you have, but you may use 2 x 4 ohm speakers in series, in parallel with a single 8 ohm one, per channel .
That will give you a 4 ohm combined load, each speaker type will sound like if it were alone, and you can drive that through a long wire, as thick as you can.
Even if you end up with, say, 1 ohm resistance in series with a 4 ohm load, the sky won´t fall because of that, and I bet you can get lower resistance, I´m just stating a "worst case" possibility.
Will all speakers receive same power? No.
Are there technically better ways to solve this? Yes.
But you have what you have, this suggestion makes best use with what´s available and with a minimum complication.
Strongly agree with idea of adding some kind of limiter to the system.
Nothing will happen while refined customers use the place, but any day it can be rented for some party and a heavy handed DJ can blow it to pieces.
In theory worst would be sending 130W into the 8 ohms speakers (pair 4 ohm ones in series would share power, so no big deal) and it might stand that kind of power .... while clean ..... heavily overdrive the amplifier and he´ll nuke al tweeters for sure, probably a couple midrange too.
A properly set limiter which never ever lets the amp clip will be a lifesaver.
It sounds as if you could do better with Active speakers, running the signal from the mixer or preamp the 150 '. Many active speakers have their own internal limiter.
Certainly cheaper in terms of wire, if mains power is located near the speaker locations already. A second pair of 22 ga wires controlling 24 VDC input relays is required to turn the speakers AC on & off from the console. Organ speakers from Rodgers & Allen have this turn off/on function built in. Plenum rated wire (non-poisonous in fire) is certainly cheaper in 22 ga 2 pair as opposed to 12 or 10 gauge speaker wire.
Three serious PA speaker manufactures are Peavey, JVC, and Yamaha.
I test speakers for sound fidelity by playing piano CD's. I know what a grand piano is supposed to sound like, and most speakers can't do it. Some two way speakers with 15" woofer & horn can IMHO. You see what I finally bought in my tag line. SP2 without the XT suffix post 2005 build sounds even better. As these are better sounding at 1 W level than any home audio speaker stocked in my small city market, I don't sense any penalty to at home to using PA speakers that would produce 126 db in a noisy bar at 300 W drive, with less fidelity. Your friends may have different opinion. I find many people are impressed by the suit the salesman wears and the decor of the showroom, by contrast with the actual sound quality (especially detectable in purchase of pianos). Similar horn + 15' woofer design speakers are available active, with internal amps, although I haven't listened to any.
Certainly cheaper in terms of wire, if mains power is located near the speaker locations already. A second pair of 22 ga wires controlling 24 VDC input relays is required to turn the speakers AC on & off from the console. Organ speakers from Rodgers & Allen have this turn off/on function built in. Plenum rated wire (non-poisonous in fire) is certainly cheaper in 22 ga 2 pair as opposed to 12 or 10 gauge speaker wire.
Three serious PA speaker manufactures are Peavey, JVC, and Yamaha.
I test speakers for sound fidelity by playing piano CD's. I know what a grand piano is supposed to sound like, and most speakers can't do it. Some two way speakers with 15" woofer & horn can IMHO. You see what I finally bought in my tag line. SP2 without the XT suffix post 2005 build sounds even better. As these are better sounding at 1 W level than any home audio speaker stocked in my small city market, I don't sense any penalty to at home to using PA speakers that would produce 126 db in a noisy bar at 300 W drive, with less fidelity. Your friends may have different opinion. I find many people are impressed by the suit the salesman wears and the decor of the showroom, by contrast with the actual sound quality (especially detectable in purchase of pianos). Similar horn + 15' woofer design speakers are available active, with internal amps, although I haven't listened to any.
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I use Behringer models with DSP for my home theater and for some live audio as well. (I mod the fans for quieter more efficient cooling.)
1000w models are less than $200
3000w less than $300
6000w under $400
12000w under $800
(All DSP)
The DSP will handle EQ/Crossover/Limiting as needed. Limiting is key for me as I tend to buy more power than I currently need. (Part of this is to ensure cool easy running, and it is also partly for expansion.)
I run a mix of 1000/3000/6000w models at home, 12 in total, fed balanced from my surround preamp, a (now discontinued?) Marantz 8802 I got second-hand. The fans are all modded, but not in the listening area.
For PA work I mainly use 2x3000w, 2x6000w, and 4x12000w Behringer DSP models -- highs/lows/subs respectively. It's overkill perhaps, but they stay cool and don't stress. Haven't modded all the fans. They are in 4 racks, one large FOH rack on one side and a smaller one on the other side by the main stacks (two subs, one on either side on the bottom) and two small SKB cases for the fill subs (two more) in the room. Depending on the room size everything is either older Danley or older EAW gear. (I've always had the best luck with the shortest speaker cable runs possible!)
Berhingers may not be the best in the world, but they have never died on me, and the DSP functions make them pretty fool-proof if I'm not there to run them. (They are also easier to lug around than anything I used before also!)
I started out just using them for sub stuff...but, I'm now satisfied with them running everything now at home and in mobile PA.
I've not yet used them in fixed installs, FWIW...but can't think of a good reason not to.
Good luck!
Cheers,
-bjl
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
1000w models are less than $200
3000w less than $300
6000w under $400
12000w under $800
(All DSP)
The DSP will handle EQ/Crossover/Limiting as needed. Limiting is key for me as I tend to buy more power than I currently need. (Part of this is to ensure cool easy running, and it is also partly for expansion.)
I run a mix of 1000/3000/6000w models at home, 12 in total, fed balanced from my surround preamp, a (now discontinued?) Marantz 8802 I got second-hand. The fans are all modded, but not in the listening area.
For PA work I mainly use 2x3000w, 2x6000w, and 4x12000w Behringer DSP models -- highs/lows/subs respectively. It's overkill perhaps, but they stay cool and don't stress. Haven't modded all the fans. They are in 4 racks, one large FOH rack on one side and a smaller one on the other side by the main stacks (two subs, one on either side on the bottom) and two small SKB cases for the fill subs (two more) in the room. Depending on the room size everything is either older Danley or older EAW gear. (I've always had the best luck with the shortest speaker cable runs possible!)
Berhingers may not be the best in the world, but they have never died on me, and the DSP functions make them pretty fool-proof if I'm not there to run them. (They are also easier to lug around than anything I used before also!)
I started out just using them for sub stuff...but, I'm now satisfied with them running everything now at home and in mobile PA.
I've not yet used them in fixed installs, FWIW...but can't think of a good reason not to.
Good luck!
Cheers,
-bjl
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
In this size venue and without positive limiting control it is virtually certain that the speakers will be blown sooner rather than later. You would be better advised to seek out speakers designed for PA that meet your sound quality target rather than using home audio speakers in a role they are not up to.
You might consider a LF cut filter for this application. Home speakers aren't really intended
for such demanding use. Speaker fuses are the most effective protection, though.
You could rent some PA speakers instead.
Just saw all replies.. thanks for feedback.
I was thinking of pro audio stuff.
I did bring viennas into the space. And turned them on at moderate levels. Owners said volume level is fine.
It's mostly rich people driving nice cars that will be there.
70% of the space is round tables. Only about 20 x 30 feet of space is sort of dance area, speech area.
90% of the time its restaurant bar scene. Every wedding will have maybe 3 hours of dancing max..
And 90% of the time they'll have their playlist on iPhone.
Music initially was not considered. Last minute thought to have something nice that's always there. For wild events they may bring pro audio gear. Home audio I am looking to install is more like background. Moderate levels or jazz, lounge, light rockenroll
And home audio prices I am offering them is many times cheaper than new pro audio
I was thinking of pro audio stuff.
I did bring viennas into the space. And turned them on at moderate levels. Owners said volume level is fine.
It's mostly rich people driving nice cars that will be there.
70% of the space is round tables. Only about 20 x 30 feet of space is sort of dance area, speech area.
90% of the time its restaurant bar scene. Every wedding will have maybe 3 hours of dancing max..
And 90% of the time they'll have their playlist on iPhone.
Music initially was not considered. Last minute thought to have something nice that's always there. For wild events they may bring pro audio gear. Home audio I am looking to install is more like background. Moderate levels or jazz, lounge, light rockenroll
And home audio prices I am offering them is many times cheaper than new pro audio
My nephew played the music for his brothers wedding, last week.
When he started the electronic stuff later in the evening, the dance floor suddenly "filled up" with ravers jumping to the music. It was loud. Domestic speakers would probably have died fairly quickly.
It's just such a situation where a slightly drunk "guest" decides it's not loud enough and adjusts to too loud !
You said weddings?
Then forget these speakers, they will never ever work in that role.
3 hours dancing? They´ll blow on the first song.
My earlier suggestions pointed at a Lounge scene, or Restaurant *background* music, think glorified Muzak, and nothing else.
Not even Jazz or Acoustic "unplugged" live Music, go figure.
Those Hi Fi speakers are designed for a typical modern Living Room; you must fill 10X or 20X the volume .
Go straight for PA type speakers or to have less harsh sound and more even coverage, without hot spots, you might distribute 6 or 8 active Recording Monitors: small size, Hi Fi sound as opposed to harsh bold PA type, and you can get very good ones for less than you´ll spend in those high quality Home speakers.
Just as a reference, check these.
8" woofers, biamplified, limiters built-in , reasonable price, distribute 4 around the dance area, pointing in, and extra 4 evenly around the room.
https://www.sweetwater.com/c405--Be...6eyJTcGVha2VyIFNpemUiOlsiOFwiIHRvIDEwXCIiXX19
of course, feel free to choose the brand you prefer ... but these are as good as any.
Wire 2 separate audio lines, one for the dance area, so you can rise its volume when/if needed, another to the dining area, so you don´t blast them.
Then forget these speakers, they will never ever work in that role.
3 hours dancing? They´ll blow on the first song.
My earlier suggestions pointed at a Lounge scene, or Restaurant *background* music, think glorified Muzak, and nothing else.
Not even Jazz or Acoustic "unplugged" live Music, go figure.
Those Hi Fi speakers are designed for a typical modern Living Room; you must fill 10X or 20X the volume .
Go straight for PA type speakers or to have less harsh sound and more even coverage, without hot spots, you might distribute 6 or 8 active Recording Monitors: small size, Hi Fi sound as opposed to harsh bold PA type, and you can get very good ones for less than you´ll spend in those high quality Home speakers.
Just as a reference, check these.
8" woofers, biamplified, limiters built-in , reasonable price, distribute 4 around the dance area, pointing in, and extra 4 evenly around the room.
https://www.sweetwater.com/c405--Be...6eyJTcGVha2VyIFNpemUiOlsiOFwiIHRvIDEwXCIiXX19
of course, feel free to choose the brand you prefer ... but these are as good as any.
Wire 2 separate audio lines, one for the dance area, so you can rise its volume when/if needed, another to the dining area, so you don´t blast them.
Ideally you would use application-correct professional speakers.
Home speakers suitable for this application would be something like Klipsch La Scala (which are actually designed for sound reinforcement applications, but most buyers did use them in the home, so the Sound Quality (SQ) is closer to HiFi than PA).
If you are judicious with the volume control there won't be any issues with the speakers you've chosen, however I would recommend a sound level meter and set the SPL at a 1 meter distance from the speakers to, say, maximum 95 dB. Use "White Noise" to set the SPL ... inter-station hiss on an FM tuner, or make a CD/mp3, download the track from the internet (many sources) and use that.
90 would be better if that is loud enough, but remember you will be testing in an empty room; fill it with people and the SPL in the room will be lower (bodies "absorb" sound in the far field).
DO NOT use a "loudness" control if available on your gear. DO NOT turn up the bass or treble; a bass / treble cut, if it sounds right to you, is OK, and in fact I would encourage you to use it, even if only a small turn of the knob.
Sound Reinforcement applications are mostly about the midrange anyway. True SR speakers have relatively little output below 100 Hz or above 12 KHz. There is a reason for that.
Andrew has it correct; long interconnects and amp nearest the speakers is the way to go. This is not simply a matter of getting the most power to the speakers; with the load you are thinking of (long speaker wire = high inductance, added resistance, plus however you hook up the speakers) will mean early clipping of the power amplifier, and possibly amplifier instability, engaging of protection circuitry just when you want it to just play music, etc).
Clipping WILL destroy the High Frequency drivers and possibly all the drivers. AVOID.
Balanced lines are also recommended as he also suggested for the run length you are requiring (you can rent this type of cable and the Single-ended > Balanced and Balanced > Single Ended interface boxes from Music Stores).
You may also be able to rent a Sound Level Meter from the Music Store, and if in an pinch, you can download one for your smartphone.
While you are at it, seriously consider renting some proper Sound Reinforcement speakers at the same time. You can then switch to those from your SQ speakers for the dance portion, and save much potential grief. Your bride and groom will be happy with the SQ portion, your party crowd will be happy with the dance portion; everyone will be happy. No-one will notice the different SQ much once the place gets swinging, but they will notice if your original plan means the music is too quiet.
The last three are highly recommended if you want this to go smoothly. The No1 priority in an event like this is to keep the guests happy and avoid, at all costs, equipment breakdown. There is never enough money in the budget for a wedding, yet there is always enough money in the budget for a wedding. Renting gear for 1 night is inexpensive.
Home speakers suitable for this application would be something like Klipsch La Scala (which are actually designed for sound reinforcement applications, but most buyers did use them in the home, so the Sound Quality (SQ) is closer to HiFi than PA).
If you are judicious with the volume control there won't be any issues with the speakers you've chosen, however I would recommend a sound level meter and set the SPL at a 1 meter distance from the speakers to, say, maximum 95 dB. Use "White Noise" to set the SPL ... inter-station hiss on an FM tuner, or make a CD/mp3, download the track from the internet (many sources) and use that.
90 would be better if that is loud enough, but remember you will be testing in an empty room; fill it with people and the SPL in the room will be lower (bodies "absorb" sound in the far field).
DO NOT use a "loudness" control if available on your gear. DO NOT turn up the bass or treble; a bass / treble cut, if it sounds right to you, is OK, and in fact I would encourage you to use it, even if only a small turn of the knob.
Sound Reinforcement applications are mostly about the midrange anyway. True SR speakers have relatively little output below 100 Hz or above 12 KHz. There is a reason for that.
Andrew has it correct; long interconnects and amp nearest the speakers is the way to go. This is not simply a matter of getting the most power to the speakers; with the load you are thinking of (long speaker wire = high inductance, added resistance, plus however you hook up the speakers) will mean early clipping of the power amplifier, and possibly amplifier instability, engaging of protection circuitry just when you want it to just play music, etc).
Clipping WILL destroy the High Frequency drivers and possibly all the drivers. AVOID.
Balanced lines are also recommended as he also suggested for the run length you are requiring (you can rent this type of cable and the Single-ended > Balanced and Balanced > Single Ended interface boxes from Music Stores).
You may also be able to rent a Sound Level Meter from the Music Store, and if in an pinch, you can download one for your smartphone.
While you are at it, seriously consider renting some proper Sound Reinforcement speakers at the same time. You can then switch to those from your SQ speakers for the dance portion, and save much potential grief. Your bride and groom will be happy with the SQ portion, your party crowd will be happy with the dance portion; everyone will be happy. No-one will notice the different SQ much once the place gets swinging, but they will notice if your original plan means the music is too quiet.
The last three are highly recommended if you want this to go smoothly. The No1 priority in an event like this is to keep the guests happy and avoid, at all costs, equipment breakdown. There is never enough money in the budget for a wedding, yet there is always enough money in the budget for a wedding. Renting gear for 1 night is inexpensive.
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Agree that you won't have enough level. Listening to the system in an empty venue is no way to tell how "loud" it will be. You add the noise and absorption of 60 people and you'll need at least 10db more volume, then you get the drunk bride hearing her favorite song and turning it up to max.
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