Hi !
Repairing or recapping old (circa 1970) amps and receivers, I am confused by the markings of the capacitors.
The photograph shows for instance 4 types of caps found on a Pio SA-5300.
3 ELNA and one Sanyo.
The big Grey ELNA has the markings "CEW(85L)" and 47 with a S in a circle.
The medium grey is marked "CERB" and 53 with a U in a circle.
The orange one shows "CERB" and a 51 with a U in a circle.
I suppose that the second line means a factory or some sort of a datecode.
But what is the meaning of "CEW" or "CERB" ?
Most of the capacitors on this amp are the grey "CEW"
I suppose "CEW" is the standard type (cheaper, lower quality).
And the "CERB" are higher in quality ?
But why a grey "CERB" and a orange one ?
The small blue is a Sanyo 1µF 25V marked M408.
I read somewhere that these Sanyo are solid aluminium ones.
What are the differences between them and the usual electro caps ?
And most important, what new models use to replace them ?
I like the Nichicon, but is it necessary to go to the "Fine Gold" or higher quality caps for a 2x10W amp of 1960 vintage ?
On the SA5500 are four tantalum caps, but they are not a problem, I systematically replace the small ones with film caps, and the larger ones with electro ones or film ones (if space permits).
I am on the process of rejuvenating this small amp (which was working well before) the usual way : changing all the electro caps (I replace the low voltage ones with 50V new ones, 'cause I can't stock all capacities AND voltage, and the new ones are smaller) and the PSU diodes, putting new mica pads and new gease, DeOxit on the switches, selectors and pots.
I thank you for your reponses.
.
Repairing or recapping old (circa 1970) amps and receivers, I am confused by the markings of the capacitors.
The photograph shows for instance 4 types of caps found on a Pio SA-5300.
3 ELNA and one Sanyo.
The big Grey ELNA has the markings "CEW(85L)" and 47 with a S in a circle.
The medium grey is marked "CERB" and 53 with a U in a circle.
The orange one shows "CERB" and a 51 with a U in a circle.
I suppose that the second line means a factory or some sort of a datecode.
But what is the meaning of "CEW" or "CERB" ?
Most of the capacitors on this amp are the grey "CEW"
I suppose "CEW" is the standard type (cheaper, lower quality).
And the "CERB" are higher in quality ?
But why a grey "CERB" and a orange one ?
The small blue is a Sanyo 1µF 25V marked M408.
I read somewhere that these Sanyo are solid aluminium ones.
What are the differences between them and the usual electro caps ?
And most important, what new models use to replace them ?
I like the Nichicon, but is it necessary to go to the "Fine Gold" or higher quality caps for a 2x10W amp of 1960 vintage ?
On the SA5500 are four tantalum caps, but they are not a problem, I systematically replace the small ones with film caps, and the larger ones with electro ones or film ones (if space permits).
I am on the process of rejuvenating this small amp (which was working well before) the usual way : changing all the electro caps (I replace the low voltage ones with 50V new ones, 'cause I can't stock all capacities AND voltage, and the new ones are smaller) and the PSU diodes, putting new mica pads and new gease, DeOxit on the switches, selectors and pots.
I thank you for your reponses.
.
Attachments
I use 3000 hour service life & up electrolytic caps from nichicon, panasonic, rubicon, vishay, kemet. I've received no trash in this category, and I've had to replace none since I started intensive amp & organ maintenance since 2008. Over 400 caps. All 5 vendors make a 1000 hour cap for the prototype builders & repairmen that want the customer to have lowest cost even if he needs to repeat the repair in 3 years. Some distributors let you see the hours service life in the selector table, others make you download the datasheet of every candidate part.
No knowledge of your mystery codes. Some manufacturers buy private label & unlabeled parts to ensure the customer has to send his unit to the authorized repair service when it is past normal life: which repair service pays the manufacturer for the privilege.
If you can't find a schematic diagram & parts list for this unit, move on. I find Peavey's easy to reactivate because the diagrams are readily available, the caps & resistors are marked and there is a semiconductor cross table on the net.
At a minimum find a schematic on a unit you intend to buy or bid on, before you spend money.
No knowledge of your mystery codes. Some manufacturers buy private label & unlabeled parts to ensure the customer has to send his unit to the authorized repair service when it is past normal life: which repair service pays the manufacturer for the privilege.
If you can't find a schematic diagram & parts list for this unit, move on. I find Peavey's easy to reactivate because the diagrams are readily available, the caps & resistors are marked and there is a semiconductor cross table on the net.
At a minimum find a schematic on a unit you intend to buy or bid on, before you spend money.
Yes, go by the schematic!
Any name brand capacitor of good quality found at a real distributor will do fine. Do not buy capacitor kits off Ebay, or any other components for that matter. If you need semiconductors, but currently manufactured parts from an authorized distributor. With nonauthorized sellers there is a very high degree of fake parts marked like real ones, and remarked semiconductors. Lately there are factories manufacturing semiconductors with original part numbers, but you are way further ahead with current manufacture parts sold through proper channels.
-Chris
Any name brand capacitor of good quality found at a real distributor will do fine. Do not buy capacitor kits off Ebay, or any other components for that matter. If you need semiconductors, but currently manufactured parts from an authorized distributor. With nonauthorized sellers there is a very high degree of fake parts marked like real ones, and remarked semiconductors. Lately there are factories manufacturing semiconductors with original part numbers, but you are way further ahead with current manufacture parts sold through proper channels.
-Chris
+1 with anatech
and then we are talking about a pioneer 5300, we have to put it into perspective, it's a popular little device that works and does the job but it is not worth putting racing capacitors in there.
At Conrad there are still capacitors referenced by brand and quality for a reasonable price.
choose models with a higher voltage grade, switch the voltage selector to 240v, adjust the quiescent currents, it will already be good.
and then we are talking about a pioneer 5300, we have to put it into perspective, it's a popular little device that works and does the job but it is not worth putting racing capacitors in there.
At Conrad there are still capacitors referenced by brand and quality for a reasonable price.
choose models with a higher voltage grade, switch the voltage selector to 240v, adjust the quiescent currents, it will already be good.
Regarding 1uF caps and similar small polarized types, the size reduction of film caps since 1970, often means we can buy and fit superior PP film caps rather than electrolytic types or the expensive, solid aluminium types and at lower prices too. For significantly larger values, previous advice here is best followed because you don't want the signal path exposed to noise sources by oversized caps acting as an aerial for EMI.
You might possibly find the orange cap is a low leakage type and these would be marked on the circuit diagram or referred to as such in the parts lists in the service manuals.
Always be sure you know what each is. Very very occasionally a cap might be a bipolar type and would be marked as such on the cap itself (usually B.P. or obvious by having no polarity markings).
The blue Sanyo cap is probably just an ordinary electrolytic. Look at what it does and how it is referred to in the manual and parts lists.
Make sure you note the polarity of any caps you remove, do not just rely on board markings as these can sometimes be incorrect. Fit caps the same way around as they came out. If in doubt check the voltage across the cap to be sure.
Modern high quality commercial grade parts should exceed the specs of anything from the 70's and 80's although to be fair a lot of original stuff still tests OK in my experience, particularly where they have not seen high temperatures in use.
Always be sure you know what each is. Very very occasionally a cap might be a bipolar type and would be marked as such on the cap itself (usually B.P. or obvious by having no polarity markings).
The blue Sanyo cap is probably just an ordinary electrolytic. Look at what it does and how it is referred to in the manual and parts lists.
Make sure you note the polarity of any caps you remove, do not just rely on board markings as these can sometimes be incorrect. Fit caps the same way around as they came out. If in doubt check the voltage across the cap to be sure.
Modern high quality commercial grade parts should exceed the specs of anything from the 70's and 80's although to be fair a lot of original stuff still tests OK in my experience, particularly where they have not seen high temperatures in use.
and also pay attention to offers of capacitors on amazon (especially the offers with several values), I tried, tested a sample, and it is a bit of the big thing in the values displayed compared to what I measured in real life
Thank you all for your replies.
But my "problem" in fact is a rather "philosophic" one.
I have the SM of the amp, I note all the caps for capacity and orientation before unsoldering.
But my questions are :
What are the differences between a 220µF 35V grey marked CEW85L (I suppose 85 is for 85° and L for long ?) and another 47µF 25V one marked CERB ? Different quality (like for instance a Nichicon FG and a standard one) ?
And why a grey 47µF 25V CERB and an orange 47µF 16V CERB ?
And what is the Sanyo light blue ? I read somewhere they might be solid aluminium type?
I am seaarching for datasheets, notices or catalogs for these old caps. But I don't have found some, only new ones.
I know the SA5300 is not a top of the shelf amp, and I don't intent to spend too much for the recapping.
Am I right in saying that any new cap of a reputable brand, coming from a reputable supplier, is able to replace any of the old ones, disregarding color or "manufacturing" markings ?
I am in fact very doutful about the proliferation of companies making caps nowadays, and proliferations of types and qualities of caps.
Looking the catalog of ELNA, one can find more than 50 types of caps.
Same for Pana, Nichicon, ...
Isn't there a marketing overflow ?
Have a nice day !
But my "problem" in fact is a rather "philosophic" one.
I have the SM of the amp, I note all the caps for capacity and orientation before unsoldering.
But my questions are :
What are the differences between a 220µF 35V grey marked CEW85L (I suppose 85 is for 85° and L for long ?) and another 47µF 25V one marked CERB ? Different quality (like for instance a Nichicon FG and a standard one) ?
And why a grey 47µF 25V CERB and an orange 47µF 16V CERB ?
And what is the Sanyo light blue ? I read somewhere they might be solid aluminium type?
I am seaarching for datasheets, notices or catalogs for these old caps. But I don't have found some, only new ones.
I know the SA5300 is not a top of the shelf amp, and I don't intent to spend too much for the recapping.
Am I right in saying that any new cap of a reputable brand, coming from a reputable supplier, is able to replace any of the old ones, disregarding color or "manufacturing" markings ?
I am in fact very doutful about the proliferation of companies making caps nowadays, and proliferations of types and qualities of caps.
Looking the catalog of ELNA, one can find more than 50 types of caps.
Same for Pana, Nichicon, ...
Isn't there a marketing overflow ?
Have a nice day !
If you want to push the unit out the door and don't care if a new cap fails in 7 years, buy any panasonic nichicon rubicon vishay or kemet cap. I wouldn't recommend low ESR caps for this unit, they are for switching power supplies. I do recommend film for 1 & .47 uf electrolytics.
Some caps are taller, some caps are fatter. Buy ones that fit your unit. Check the dimensions.
If you intend to listen to the unit 2000 hours a year and don't want to do the job again 3 or 4 times in your life, use caps with service life of 3000 hours up. It is not just the 105C vs 85 C, the longer life caps have better sealant and in some cases more electrolyte. They only cost ~30% more than 500 hour or 1000 hour caps or unrated caps. Note CDE & chemicon had looser end of life ripple spec than brands listed above when I read the datasheet. Every cap I received from CDE & Epcos were made in a country known for falsifying QA paperwork. Buying store shelf caps including sprague predecessor of vishay, they failed in my ST70 every 7 years. Watts out would measurably become limited to 7-10/ch .
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It's good to ask and question but try not to get to hung up on the type markings. The amp is 100% conventional and it does not need exotic caps.
As I said earlier, I have a feeling that some orange sleeved caps might be very low leakage types. Rotel used to use those but they were marked as such.
Look at the blue Sanyo cap carefully. Does it have a + and - marking?
If you post the circuit location reference numbers of the two 47uF caps and the Sanyo one I'll look on the circuit and see whether anything stands out. _
Hi alcha,
The questions you are asking are really pointless. Pioneer did not use good capacitors for starters, so any brand of currently available name-brand capacitors will be better by a large margin. Never forget that the parts installed in a product have more to do with availability and price than anything else. It's best not to obsess over capacitor types in commercial products in general. In better products often may be a reason, but not in a Pioneer.
Now for the important thing. The leads go through a rubber seal in the bottom of a radial electrolytic capacitor. You must form the leads, supporting the lead between the rubber seal and the bend point. If you just jam the leads through (like 99.9% of people out there do) you may well break the seal between the rubber and the lead. This will lead to accelerated failure of the capacitor. Try and be careful to buy replacements that have the correct spacing. You will often be well advised to buy a higher voltage rated part. That also helps you get into parts that fit as most parts have become smaller over the years.
The low leakage caps I have seen have a layer of epoxy over the rubber seal. Mooly is right about everything he posted, as have been others.
So take a deep breath, get decent capacitors and most importantly - install them properly.
-Chris
The questions you are asking are really pointless. Pioneer did not use good capacitors for starters, so any brand of currently available name-brand capacitors will be better by a large margin. Never forget that the parts installed in a product have more to do with availability and price than anything else. It's best not to obsess over capacitor types in commercial products in general. In better products often may be a reason, but not in a Pioneer.
Now for the important thing. The leads go through a rubber seal in the bottom of a radial electrolytic capacitor. You must form the leads, supporting the lead between the rubber seal and the bend point. If you just jam the leads through (like 99.9% of people out there do) you may well break the seal between the rubber and the lead. This will lead to accelerated failure of the capacitor. Try and be careful to buy replacements that have the correct spacing. You will often be well advised to buy a higher voltage rated part. That also helps you get into parts that fit as most parts have become smaller over the years.
The low leakage caps I have seen have a layer of epoxy over the rubber seal. Mooly is right about everything he posted, as have been others.
So take a deep breath, get decent capacitors and most importantly - install them properly.
-Chris
I want to thank Mooly and anatech for their replies which confirm what I was thinking !
With reference to tne service manual list of components and an article in an old Tuning Fork, I have found that some caps (the big ones for instance) are in the "aluminium electrolytics" category, some are "tantalum capacitors" and the blue ones are "solid aluminium" types.
So, they all are going to be replaced by good ones, of serious brands for serious retailers, and f**k the models !! 🙂
With reference to tne service manual list of components and an article in an old Tuning Fork, I have found that some caps (the big ones for instance) are in the "aluminium electrolytics" category, some are "tantalum capacitors" and the blue ones are "solid aluminium" types.
So, they all are going to be replaced by good ones, of serious brands for serious retailers, and f**k the models !! 🙂
Hi indianajo,
Can you clarify what you are saying please? There may be some misunderstanding here.
Can you clarify what you are saying please? There may be some misunderstanding here.
Post #2. 1000 hour & 500 hour caps are volume sellers. For people that build then test an amp then put it in the closet. Or repair an amp and give it back to the owner, hoping for another $$ service call when the next cap fails. The 1000's are "quality" caps from reputable manufacturers, but not long life. I re-e-capped an amp 4 times in 22 years for low power using parts store caps like sprague atomlytic or CDE yellow. 3000 hour up caps costing 30% more can last 20 years. 12000 hr caps are available under 100 uf. Even at my age (71), I might be listening to recorded music 35 more years. One of my current amps cs800s is **** good, .03% HD, 260 w/ch. Another amp has no fan, is .1% HD but there is a plan to get it to .05%. The M-2600 is running 18 hours some days. Full of new long life caps. I donate other reworked amps to churches running ****ese **** amps that failed in 8 to 15 years. Others won't take anything used, it has to be new however many times that purchase has to be repeated. See sentence 3 about the reputation of "repaired" equipment.
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Hi indianajo,
Well, you can't judge other service people over their choice of a 2,000 or 3,000 hour capacitor for equipment in intermittent use in a normal consumer setting. For one, running temperatures are generally lower in solid state equipment compared to tube gear. Another is that the temperatures in equipment closets are typically higher (especially in Churches) compared to many home installations after you talk to the home owner about stacking equipment or small stereo racks. In those cases, very high reliability capacitors really don't buy you much or anything. Most good quality capacitors will greatly exceed their rated service life.
If I am repairing equipment that runs all the time, like paging or Church equipment, they will get the longer rated parts, and they will pay for the higher cost of same. Its all about matching the product to the customer.
I see some equipment every 10 years or so (people forget) after I repair it as suggested maintenance. I have yet to see a single capacitor fail that I installed - ever. Mind you, I form the leads properly and always have. If you just jam in a high reliability capacitor, you will damage the seal and it will fail before its time just like a lower rated capacitor.
So with the reality of economics that affect the price you charge for a repair, I don't think you can rightfully look down on someone else's work that used a good quality part just because it wasn't the very most reliable one you could buy. I would say they are better matching the part to intended use and that their work is no less reliable as long as they install the parts properly.
Your workmanship is the final arbiter as to whether you've done a good job or not as long as you are using decent, good quality parts for the intended application. Its easy to take the high road, but you cost your customers a lot more money that way when it might not matter one little bit.
As for 500 hour caps, never even bought one or knew they existed. Even 1,000 hour caps are something I have never bought. For all my prototypes I have used the same quality parts I use in good repairs. They all still work today, even stuff I designed and built in 1977 and 1976.
Where does one even buy a 500 hour rated capacitor???
-Chris
Well, you can't judge other service people over their choice of a 2,000 or 3,000 hour capacitor for equipment in intermittent use in a normal consumer setting. For one, running temperatures are generally lower in solid state equipment compared to tube gear. Another is that the temperatures in equipment closets are typically higher (especially in Churches) compared to many home installations after you talk to the home owner about stacking equipment or small stereo racks. In those cases, very high reliability capacitors really don't buy you much or anything. Most good quality capacitors will greatly exceed their rated service life.
If I am repairing equipment that runs all the time, like paging or Church equipment, they will get the longer rated parts, and they will pay for the higher cost of same. Its all about matching the product to the customer.
I see some equipment every 10 years or so (people forget) after I repair it as suggested maintenance. I have yet to see a single capacitor fail that I installed - ever. Mind you, I form the leads properly and always have. If you just jam in a high reliability capacitor, you will damage the seal and it will fail before its time just like a lower rated capacitor.
So with the reality of economics that affect the price you charge for a repair, I don't think you can rightfully look down on someone else's work that used a good quality part just because it wasn't the very most reliable one you could buy. I would say they are better matching the part to intended use and that their work is no less reliable as long as they install the parts properly.
Your workmanship is the final arbiter as to whether you've done a good job or not as long as you are using decent, good quality parts for the intended application. Its easy to take the high road, but you cost your customers a lot more money that way when it might not matter one little bit.
As for 500 hour caps, never even bought one or knew they existed. Even 1,000 hour caps are something I have never bought. For all my prototypes I have used the same quality parts I use in good repairs. They all still work today, even stuff I designed and built in 1977 and 1976.
Where does one even buy a 500 hour rated capacitor???
-Chris