Hi all, extremely keen on building a tiny tiny listening bar. I’m a visual artist and intend to transform a tiny self built pavilion into a listening bar.
The purpose: set up the bar in exhibition spaces, collaborate with artists, dj’s to concoct weird drinks menus and musical explorations.
The place is already built: 18mm plywood room (floor and walls) with a paper/wood cassette ceiling, dimensions 220x330x230 cm LWH.
It will feature a bar and 4 fixed stools, and a booth for 2. (See plan sketch)
What isn’t there: the bar, sound system, drinks&vinyl shelves etc.
My skills: sculpting, wood.
My interest: building speakers (I like large speakers in a tiny room!), to set up a weird but also nice experience for visitors. Afterwards also building some more if it turns out well.
The speakers could be built into the wall, since there is space around the pavilion, like backpacks hanging from the wall exteriors.
Almost no budget, so looking for diy or assembled parts to build with.
Curious!
The purpose: set up the bar in exhibition spaces, collaborate with artists, dj’s to concoct weird drinks menus and musical explorations.
The place is already built: 18mm plywood room (floor and walls) with a paper/wood cassette ceiling, dimensions 220x330x230 cm LWH.
It will feature a bar and 4 fixed stools, and a booth for 2. (See plan sketch)
What isn’t there: the bar, sound system, drinks&vinyl shelves etc.
My skills: sculpting, wood.
My interest: building speakers (I like large speakers in a tiny room!), to set up a weird but also nice experience for visitors. Afterwards also building some more if it turns out well.
The speakers could be built into the wall, since there is space around the pavilion, like backpacks hanging from the wall exteriors.
Almost no budget, so looking for diy or assembled parts to build with.
Curious!
Do you want large speakers just for the visual effect or is there something else you're after? If you want very low frequency response at highish levels, that needs to be part of the design.
The room is very small, and the listening distance is short. SPL that would run you (or the workers) out of the room would be easy to achieve with relatively small speakers for midrange and up.
Some of this will also come down to what you prefer in general: horn loading, "full range" designs (single driver covering the majority of the audible range), multiway, etc.
The room is very small, and the listening distance is short. SPL that would run you (or the workers) out of the room would be easy to achieve with relatively small speakers for midrange and up.
Some of this will also come down to what you prefer in general: horn loading, "full range" designs (single driver covering the majority of the audible range), multiway, etc.
Thanks! Well, large is relative in this instance, I guess. I love the looks + have enjoyed many jazz kissa visits in Japan. The music won’t be jazz only though..
Since I can implement speakers in the walls anywhere, I suppose the route of multiway w/ potentially low end placed elsewhere, can be taken?
Some horn loaded systems I’ve loved the sound of, but it is not a must of course.
This is Eonta in Matsumoto JP 🙂
This is the space (18mm plywood on wooden frames, 2200mm tall). The “loveseat” by the door at the bottom won’t benefit from the greatest sound in any case, but I nevertheless want to squeeze it in!
Since I can implement speakers in the walls anywhere, I suppose the route of multiway w/ potentially low end placed elsewhere, can be taken?
Some horn loaded systems I’ve loved the sound of, but it is not a must of course.
This is Eonta in Matsumoto JP 🙂
This is the space (18mm plywood on wooden frames, 2200mm tall). The “loveseat” by the door at the bottom won’t benefit from the greatest sound in any case, but I nevertheless want to squeeze it in!
Generally this is a good idea. As long as the cross point is low enough or the subwoofers are near the main speakers you should be OK.
If you want to use horns and a low power amplifier for the main speakers, separate amplified subwoofers are also handy. You can typically get high voltage sensitivity with reasonably sized midranges/tweeters, but in the low bass range things get massive if you want high sensitivity. Modern high excursion subwoofers with high powered amplifiers can be quite small and still produce very low frequencies. Many include built-in equalization features which are also nice.
Separate subwoofers might also let you build them into the bench, counter, or loveseat. Your description makes it sound like this is going to be somewhat portable, so the more you can build in and wire essentially permanently, the better. You don't want to have to dismantle and rebuild a bunch of stuff for each move. Of course things need to be replaceable also in case of failure, so that should figure into how you build and mount things.
What about getting rid of the booth and having central bar, speakers on both sides and service, playback equip at one end or centre the array on the long axis as well and service from both ends?
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One afterthought about the speakers themselves. I have never heard them in the flesh but a few demo videos by Danley and others lead me to believe small synergy or unity horns might be worth checking into.
I would find it disappointing to not be able to find a 'sweet spot' for a decent stereo effect. Also, a little bass goes a long way in a small space like this...
Thanks!
That would mean building bass into the counter at a very low height 0-100cm? Does it not get obstructed by the actual guests sitting? Or behind them in the back wall?
I could build the speakers into cabinets that can be inserted in specific openings in the wall, and unbolt/take em out when dismantling.
In that case: the bass cabs could potentially be massive, since their backs are hanging out of the actual pavilion 🙂
I’m intrigued by the unity horn concept, especially since I love to build cabinets. How to combine w the bass and positioning.. 🙂
Hey!
Well, entrance is at the bottom, and service on the right. I kinda love separation between the crowd and the barman, and the theatricality of these separate entries/exits. (the top left leads you into a large studio space and lets you discover the “backstage” of this pavilion)
So in a way the layout cannot be altered much. The loveseat is more of an idea coming from classic bars such as the Kärntner bar in Vienna by architect Adolf Loos. It’s a reference/sample 🙂
A low wall (120cm) isolates it from the service/bar area, so speakers can be above that horizontal marker anywhere.
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Not to any significant degree, as long as you keep the cross point low. 80-100 Hz is the typical crossover range for subwoofers. Below there, the sound is omnidirectional and difficult to localize. As long as you don't significantly obstruct the speaker with a solid, sealed barrier, the bass tends to just go around any humans or minor obstructions. Down-firing subwoofers are a good example of this in home audio.
Just a thought: keep in mind customer and employee (if there are any) safety. I know some local labor safety regulations and the max allowed continuous "background" music spl is quite low.
For example in most of the local clothing retail shops the music is waaay to loud.
For example in most of the local clothing retail shops the music is waaay to loud.
This fits with what I was thinking about the unity/synergy horn - That (as far as I know) they are very focused/coherent so that change in distance at low volume won't matter much. 'Never built them though so this is just guessing.
A couple of video examples that impressed me. One. Two. There are quite a few other examples on YouTube. I imagine you could optimize the design for your booth .
A couple of video examples that impressed me. One. Two. There are quite a few other examples on YouTube. I imagine you could optimize the design for your booth .
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A line array has the potential to only decrease 3 dB with each distance doubling. That would probably help more than a Synergy/Unit horn if one is worried about people very near the speakers. How either would behave in such a small room is less obvious to me though.
@mattstat thanks. It is a concern I guess when the speakers are placed behind the bar. If this is the case, what could be a suitable setup/build/buy? (Still like the low end under the counter idea)
Synergy sounds like a fun build. Would this make it harder to find a “sweet spot”, say, at the centrally positioned bar stools?
PS am building my first two speakers atm, cobra horn, which will connect an NAD amp1 that I have. Warmup to this bar project!
Synergy sounds like a fun build. Would this make it harder to find a “sweet spot”, say, at the centrally positioned bar stools?
PS am building my first two speakers atm, cobra horn, which will connect an NAD amp1 that I have. Warmup to this bar project!
It depends on what SPL you are targeting in what frequency ranges and the distances from the speakers to each person. Hearing damage estimates and workplace exposure limits are normally based on A-weighted measurements. Ears are damaged more easily by midrange and high frequencies. Most people can take a lot of bass without trouble though.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-weighting
The EU has a bit stricter regulations than the US for noise limits. Here's a snip from Google's AI summary on the topic:
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Both OSHA and ISO have standards related to noise exposure, though they differ slightly in their approach and values:
OSHA (Occupational Safety and Health Administration):
Permissible Exposure Limit (PEL): 90 dBA (A-weighted decibels) averaged over an eight-hour time-weighted average (TWA).
Action Level: 85 dBA 8-hour TWA.
Employers must implement a hearing conservation program when noise exposure equals or exceeds this level.
Maximum Continuous Noise: Limited to a maximum of 115 dBA for continuous steady-state noise.
Impulse Noise: Should not exceed 140 dB peak sound pressure level.
ISO (International Organization for Standardization):
Equivalent Sound Pressure Level (Lequ, 8h): ISO 1999:1990 recommends 85 dB(A) as the exposure limit for occupational noise.
European Directive 2003/10/EC (Noise at Work Regulations):
Upper Action Value: 85 dBA.
Lower Action Value: 80 dBA.
Key Points:
A-weighting (dBA): This is used to reflect how the human ear perceives sound.
Time-Weighted Average (TWA): This considers both the sound level and the duration of exposure.
Hearing Conservation Programs: OSHA mandates these programs to prevent hearing loss in workers exposed to noise at or above the action level.
Exchange Rate: OSHA uses a 5 dB exchange rate, meaning that for every 5 dB increase in noise level, the allowed exposure time is halved.
NIOSH: The National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health also recommends limiting 8-hour exposure to less than 85 dBA and uses a 3 dBA exchange rate.
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Back to me:
I don't have a feel for enough of your variables to give a solid recommendation. Some general ideas though:
You don't want the speakers to be like 6 inches from one person's ears, and 8 feet from another's.
If we assume 6 dB SPL decrease for each distance doubling, the SPL difference is 20*log(D1/D2). So for half a foot and 8 feet, you'd have a 24 dB difference between the two listeners. If you improve that to 3 feet and 8 feet, it's only an 8.5 dB difference, so pushing the speakers back a bit can help significantly, and may be all the mitigation you need if levels aren't too high. Having more speakers spread around the space can equalize the SPL's further. But again, with a room this small, you're probably going to have quite a few reflections that decrease the differences.
If you don't have a scientific calculator handy, this page will help with distance/SPL calculations:
https://sengpielaudio.com/calculator-distance.htm
In a case like this, I'd be inclined to set up 2 convenient speakers (of about the size you're considering) in the space and take some measurements while moving around and listening at your intended level. Once you get through some initial listening/placement tests, get another person in there with you and try to have a conversation from the various positions of workers and patrons with music playing.
iPhone SPL apps are pretty accurate using the built-in microphones. Other brands have more microphone variability so aren't as reliable. You can get affordable calibrated external microphones to fix that deficiency.
Depends on the design. Most horns have narrow-ish dispersion, but they aren't all the same. Unless you're going to use someone else's design, I'm not sure I'd go down the Synergy path unless you're very interested in learning about them. A lot more details to get right than a typical speaker design.
My gut feel is that very wide dispersion may be helpful in your case, since the listening positions have the potential to be way off axis depending on where your speakers land.
I'm not familiar with the Cobra Horn. If that's based on a full-range driver, those often have relatively narrow dispersion at high frequencies. Might be a good test to determine if narrower dispersion is an issue in practice for your application.
Topic change: are you going to have open doors all the time or is this essentially a sealed room? If sealed, you may need some ventilation. Each person is like a 100-watt heater.
@mattstat wow this is back to school! Great. Since it’s a listening bar and tiny, also ppl will talk a bit. Seems spl is in the 60-80db range from what I searched? If the speakers are wide dispersion and positioned about 6ft apart, the distance to the stools is 5-8ft depending on your spot.
The Cobra Horn is nOt intended for this space, just a first attempt at building.
The Cobra Horn is nOt intended for this space, just a first attempt at building.
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Familiar with the Japan scene. Very much early vintage American Altec / Western Electric inspired
Low level speaker not to hard. 2 way 1x8 with horn 1x12 with horn or 1x15 with horn.
Plenty of bass for a small place. SPL not even a issue.
Needs very little power, home stereo 60 to 100 watts.
The look somewhat easy, large simple utility plywood type boxes paint it gray.
The horn not mounted inside the box, external so the driver and horn fully visible.
All done.
If sub is later added, same old thing 1x12 sub in corner. crossover same old 60 to 80 Hz.
Same old active system to match levels. Active crossover 2 way rack mount, same old behringer CX2310
Stereo amp to mains, mono amp to sub. Adjust levels for music type.
To make it actually cheap and easy with decent sound. 1x8" mid /bass with horn.
Visaton BG20 2 cubic feet, grey box. Visaton HTH 8.7 horn mounted external. crossover passive.
Sub 1x12 GRS 12SW4HE. Crossover active, done.
Or buy a cheap 1x12 sub with plate amp. Typical easy one is the Klipsch things.
A environment where people can connect meaningfully, whether they’re artists sharing inspiration, young lovers looking for a real connection, or individuals searching for new friends—all through face-to-face interaction, not through digital filters.
Sounds good to me, promote it as anti AI anti Digital Social connection.
No swipe left , swipe right fake interactions that end judgmentally on a screen.
People probably donate funding if presented well enough.
In a world where technology often dictates our social interactions, A bold return to human connection. A space where creativity flourishes, music ignites inspiration, and meaningful relationships are born—not through a screen, but through shared experiences in real time.
bah blah blah give me money ,everyone is lonely, lets DRINK!!!
Low level speaker not to hard. 2 way 1x8 with horn 1x12 with horn or 1x15 with horn.
Plenty of bass for a small place. SPL not even a issue.
Needs very little power, home stereo 60 to 100 watts.
The look somewhat easy, large simple utility plywood type boxes paint it gray.
The horn not mounted inside the box, external so the driver and horn fully visible.
All done.
If sub is later added, same old thing 1x12 sub in corner. crossover same old 60 to 80 Hz.
Same old active system to match levels. Active crossover 2 way rack mount, same old behringer CX2310
Stereo amp to mains, mono amp to sub. Adjust levels for music type.
To make it actually cheap and easy with decent sound. 1x8" mid /bass with horn.
Visaton BG20 2 cubic feet, grey box. Visaton HTH 8.7 horn mounted external. crossover passive.
Sub 1x12 GRS 12SW4HE. Crossover active, done.
Or buy a cheap 1x12 sub with plate amp. Typical easy one is the Klipsch things.
A environment where people can connect meaningfully, whether they’re artists sharing inspiration, young lovers looking for a real connection, or individuals searching for new friends—all through face-to-face interaction, not through digital filters.
Sounds good to me, promote it as anti AI anti Digital Social connection.
No swipe left , swipe right fake interactions that end judgmentally on a screen.
People probably donate funding if presented well enough.
In a world where technology often dictates our social interactions, A bold return to human connection. A space where creativity flourishes, music ignites inspiration, and meaningful relationships are born—not through a screen, but through shared experiences in real time.
bah blah blah give me money ,everyone is lonely, lets DRINK!!!
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Id get a 3 way car system. 6.5 inch midbass, 2 inch mid, 1 inch tweet. Build it into the walls, put each driver on a MDF ring with metal pipe strapping holding it so you can flex it,,, , take out all the bass so you don't blow the woofer, and build a coherent image inside the space. Then get 2 sealed 12s and put them in the same wall. Cross over everything as well as possible, then EQ rhe whole thing by ear using a 31 band eq. You can use a pioneer car head unit for this, or some sort of DSP. The key is to build the sound into the space. Rotating a driver will change its sound; even the tweeter disperses sound with the top giving off the highest frequencies ... Because the lower part has the lead wires, drivers will resonate most highest frequencies opposite the lead wires. This is going to be your key. Put on Beatles Lonely hearts club band and other recordings including live ones, and get your best sound. Then eq it for a good average sound. Image dynamics makes some great sealed subs. Ct sounds has a good 3 way system for about 300 bucks