Hi All!! I'm pret-ty new to the hobby, and I must say, I'm a bit (read a lot) lost.
To give you guys a bit of a background story: (you can definately skip this part, no worries): My gf and I purchased the house back in 2015. first time buyer not much budget and/or money. I started using my tv as is, couple weeks after, figured I could use the speaker I was using with my computer with the tv. So I hooked up my Kanto with the tv. Couple years later, upgraded to a Jamo 5.1 system this speaker kit with this subwoofer. But I always had in mind since we bought the house to build speaker, always been curious about this. Couple years prior to buying the house, I purchased a subwoofer driver, spoke with people online on a car forum and someone gave me a drawing for the best box for my driver. The subwoofer turned out great. one of the best ive ever heard in a car. Small 10in but migthy.
So last year, I purchased the Criton 1TD and 2TD kit from CSS audio. Finished building and assembling the kit last month. Everything's great. Love the speaker and all. So I lend my jamo 5.0 to a friend, and kept the 10in jamo subwoofer and told him he would have the subwoofer when I'm done building a proper sbwoofer.
Major WAF in this house. Anything and everything need to be pinterest and be pretty. So I went back and forth with the SO on different subwoofer configuration she would accept.
We settled on a table/subwoofer. the table cannot go past 41.5in long x 21.5in wide and 15 or 16in high. Those measurement would be to be confirmed, as its not the dimension we aggreed on, but im sure I could make this work. That box volume gives me rougly 8.26 cubic feet overall volume.
Dimension we aggred on: 41.5 x 15x 20, (And I'm doing custom metal legs of 3in high) which gives me 5.67 internal volume (didnt take anything out for bracing and port) and if I add 25% for port and bracing, it gives me 4.25 cubic feet.
Since its a table, the subwoofer would be down firing, and if port is needed, maybe downfiring too, or on one side but id need to find a way to prevent my 1yo to put thing in there. to be discussed.
And thats where you guys comes in. I dont know where to go from there. I've been suggested go with high Xmax driver, Ive also been tsuggested to go with pro-audio driver, I'm lost and I want you guys input on the topic.
I've been searching the web to find an answer to this question, but Ive not come accross anything satisfying for a newbie like me.
My living room is like 10x10, but open space with the kitchen and hallway, which add a 20x20 surface area (8.5 foot ceiling)
Tonight I'm going to pick up 2 used NU6000DSP to drive the subwoofer. (just one will be use for the subwoofer, but the other is for another future build)
From home theater gurus youtube channel, he says chest kick from movies are around 30hz. My friend from his experience says he get more chest kick at 50-70.
Following this, for a bigger impact at 50-70, PA driver are ''better''. If I follow what HTG says, i'd be better with a high Xmas driver.
Another point: TOID DIY audio just made a video where he built 2 21in SB audience subwoofer into a small sealed box and he was able to get a flat response at 94db down to 5hz.
Following this, PA driver are pretty good at bass extension too.
I also been told that PA driver wouldnt go very well with the Criton speaker.
So yeah. pretty lost here. Can you guys help me out?
I'd say it would be 70% HT use / 30% music. We dont listen movie and or movie very loud but I like to hear the bass.
Hope I didnt forget anything. Let me know if I left any useful information. I dabbled with winisd. I can provide screenshot of what I came up with. Can also link picture of living room space or what would be usefull.
Thanks in advance guys. Looking foward to read you all and learn.
To give you guys a bit of a background story: (you can definately skip this part, no worries): My gf and I purchased the house back in 2015. first time buyer not much budget and/or money. I started using my tv as is, couple weeks after, figured I could use the speaker I was using with my computer with the tv. So I hooked up my Kanto with the tv. Couple years later, upgraded to a Jamo 5.1 system this speaker kit with this subwoofer. But I always had in mind since we bought the house to build speaker, always been curious about this. Couple years prior to buying the house, I purchased a subwoofer driver, spoke with people online on a car forum and someone gave me a drawing for the best box for my driver. The subwoofer turned out great. one of the best ive ever heard in a car. Small 10in but migthy.
So last year, I purchased the Criton 1TD and 2TD kit from CSS audio. Finished building and assembling the kit last month. Everything's great. Love the speaker and all. So I lend my jamo 5.0 to a friend, and kept the 10in jamo subwoofer and told him he would have the subwoofer when I'm done building a proper sbwoofer.
Major WAF in this house. Anything and everything need to be pinterest and be pretty. So I went back and forth with the SO on different subwoofer configuration she would accept.
We settled on a table/subwoofer. the table cannot go past 41.5in long x 21.5in wide and 15 or 16in high. Those measurement would be to be confirmed, as its not the dimension we aggreed on, but im sure I could make this work. That box volume gives me rougly 8.26 cubic feet overall volume.
Dimension we aggred on: 41.5 x 15x 20, (And I'm doing custom metal legs of 3in high) which gives me 5.67 internal volume (didnt take anything out for bracing and port) and if I add 25% for port and bracing, it gives me 4.25 cubic feet.
Since its a table, the subwoofer would be down firing, and if port is needed, maybe downfiring too, or on one side but id need to find a way to prevent my 1yo to put thing in there. to be discussed.
And thats where you guys comes in. I dont know where to go from there. I've been suggested go with high Xmax driver, Ive also been tsuggested to go with pro-audio driver, I'm lost and I want you guys input on the topic.
I've been searching the web to find an answer to this question, but Ive not come accross anything satisfying for a newbie like me.
My living room is like 10x10, but open space with the kitchen and hallway, which add a 20x20 surface area (8.5 foot ceiling)
Tonight I'm going to pick up 2 used NU6000DSP to drive the subwoofer. (just one will be use for the subwoofer, but the other is for another future build)
From home theater gurus youtube channel, he says chest kick from movies are around 30hz. My friend from his experience says he get more chest kick at 50-70.
Following this, for a bigger impact at 50-70, PA driver are ''better''. If I follow what HTG says, i'd be better with a high Xmas driver.
Another point: TOID DIY audio just made a video where he built 2 21in SB audience subwoofer into a small sealed box and he was able to get a flat response at 94db down to 5hz.
Following this, PA driver are pretty good at bass extension too.
I also been told that PA driver wouldnt go very well with the Criton speaker.
So yeah. pretty lost here. Can you guys help me out?
I'd say it would be 70% HT use / 30% music. We dont listen movie and or movie very loud but I like to hear the bass.
Hope I didnt forget anything. Let me know if I left any useful information. I dabbled with winisd. I can provide screenshot of what I came up with. Can also link picture of living room space or what would be usefull.
Thanks in advance guys. Looking foward to read you all and learn.
Also, Heres some screenshot of the woofer I modeled in winsid.
Would love to hear from you on if I did this right or not.
at 4.25 cubic ft net. Removed 25% for port and braces. Before this I had a 5.67 internal volume for a table of 41.5 long x 15 high x 20 deep
I modeled Nero18-1100D, Dayton Um-18 and Dayton MX-15. I'm open to suggestions.
Would love to hear from you on if I did this right or not.
at 4.25 cubic ft net. Removed 25% for port and braces. Before this I had a 5.67 internal volume for a table of 41.5 long x 15 high x 20 deep
I modeled Nero18-1100D, Dayton Um-18 and Dayton MX-15. I'm open to suggestions.
Attachments
Hmm, wrote this yesterday and 'thought' I'd posted it, so rather than maybe edit/update.............
OK, so we're working with ~4.25 ft^3 sub or ?
Interactive musical instrument chart
Chest 'thump' ('kick') is ~20-35 Hz, so ideally needs to be flat to ~20 Hz = an EQ'd sealed or ~14 Hz vented alignment with 'boom'/'punch' ~100-180 Hz, so with THX LFE 80 or 120 Hz XO options you're limited to 80 Hz plus kind of screwed if you can't time/phase align the LCRs, sub, so hope whatever HT receiver you have or going to buy has this measurement/EQ option.
Prosound (PA) drivers are more robust ($$) to handle long term high power over a wide range of environments, so generally overkill in a typical HT plus generally don't go as low, so not best suited for your app.
Really, low Fs, high power (Xmax) mobile audio subwoofers are probably best suited for your app.
OK, so we're working with ~4.25 ft^3 sub or ?
Interactive musical instrument chart
Chest 'thump' ('kick') is ~20-35 Hz, so ideally needs to be flat to ~20 Hz = an EQ'd sealed or ~14 Hz vented alignment with 'boom'/'punch' ~100-180 Hz, so with THX LFE 80 or 120 Hz XO options you're limited to 80 Hz plus kind of screwed if you can't time/phase align the LCRs, sub, so hope whatever HT receiver you have or going to buy has this measurement/EQ option.
Prosound (PA) drivers are more robust ($$) to handle long term high power over a wide range of environments, so generally overkill in a typical HT plus generally don't go as low, so not best suited for your app.
Really, low Fs, high power (Xmax) mobile audio subwoofers are probably best suited for your app.
Thank you so much for taking the time to answer me. really appreciate it!
yeah, lets say 4.25, cause even tho I stretch it, I dont quite reach 5ft^3 (4.94). That is with 25% for port and braces.
I have a Denon Avr1600H and I believe Audyssey can time/phase align. Dont believe the Behringer Nu6000 can do that.
So for my 4.25ft^3, the UM18 seems the better choice even tho I loose rougly 6db at 40hz upward vs the Nero driver? I do notice I get quite much low end extension (almost 16db at 20hz). I'm not quite flat to 20hz tho. F3:23.87 hz.
I just dont understand why my friend keeps suggesting me PA driver for my application.
You're welcome!
It can: How does Audyssey MultEQ work?
Well, my pioneer's mono (or multiple for stereo, Todd-AO, etc. soundtracks) cinema theater horn system avatar + my 'BIB' (bigger is better) rules my design mantra screams the 'why' (what I previously wrote) in that historically the low/high XO point was typically anywhere from 800-1200 Hz for small cinemas/early film HTs for the relatively wealthy to as low as 300 Hz for the huge horn cinema/stage palaces that are few and far between nowadays.
Right, since the sub has its own amp with sufficient power to both be EQ'd, level matched to the rest of the system.
But the bottom line is that you strongly imply by room size, system choices that ya'll won't ever listen at anywhere near THX reference + automatically going to XO low enough you only need a decent quality high power 'thumper' for the LFE channel's chest 'kick', Dino foot stomps with the mains covering the (mid) bass higher up, which is where you ideally need more LF/mid-bass speaker performance for upper half of 'boom punch' BW than your current speakers.
In short, down low there's 'no replacement for displacement'. 😉
It can: How does Audyssey MultEQ work?
Well, my pioneer's mono (or multiple for stereo, Todd-AO, etc. soundtracks) cinema theater horn system avatar + my 'BIB' (bigger is better) rules my design mantra screams the 'why' (what I previously wrote) in that historically the low/high XO point was typically anywhere from 800-1200 Hz for small cinemas/early film HTs for the relatively wealthy to as low as 300 Hz for the huge horn cinema/stage palaces that are few and far between nowadays.
Right, since the sub has its own amp with sufficient power to both be EQ'd, level matched to the rest of the system.
But the bottom line is that you strongly imply by room size, system choices that ya'll won't ever listen at anywhere near THX reference + automatically going to XO low enough you only need a decent quality high power 'thumper' for the LFE channel's chest 'kick', Dino foot stomps with the mains covering the (mid) bass higher up, which is where you ideally need more LF/mid-bass speaker performance for upper half of 'boom punch' BW than your current speakers.
In short, down low there's 'no replacement for displacement'. 😉
Your friend judges from a limited number of sound experiences he has made. Of course there are PA driver that can, used right, produce very impressive bass.
This depends on so many parameters, starting with the room, it is impossible to tell what he heard.
As you mentioned "chest kick" this is a very complex, subjective feeling, but usually starts in the tweeter and gets it's impact from the sub.
For your situation, the fun should start with a 15" driver not made for PA, but for HIFI /HT, which usually makes a good car audio sub too.
The Denon (used right) does a great job in adjusting the sound. On the other hand, it has no inteligence, which limits it's abilities in the sub range. So a combination of Audessey XT and the DSP will get the most out of your system. The DSP inside the iNuke works very well, by the way.
This depends on so many parameters, starting with the room, it is impossible to tell what he heard.
As you mentioned "chest kick" this is a very complex, subjective feeling, but usually starts in the tweeter and gets it's impact from the sub.
For your situation, the fun should start with a 15" driver not made for PA, but for HIFI /HT, which usually makes a good car audio sub too.
The Denon (used right) does a great job in adjusting the sound. On the other hand, it has no inteligence, which limits it's abilities in the sub range. So a combination of Audessey XT and the DSP will get the most out of your system. The DSP inside the iNuke works very well, by the way.
If you are a beginner, start with a project that will work in 99% of all cases. For me this would mean a closed box.
On the other hand, you can always close a vent if it does not match up.
Anyway, learn how to use REW, a great tool to find problems that may bug you.
You have already found Dayton drivers, one of the 15" should fit your available volume. If you do not listen very loud, you can extend the low end with the DSP, the iNuke even has variable limiter/ equalizer functions, which can be matched to the sub's x-max.
On the other hand, you can always close a vent if it does not match up.
Anyway, learn how to use REW, a great tool to find problems that may bug you.
You have already found Dayton drivers, one of the 15" should fit your available volume. If you do not listen very loud, you can extend the low end with the DSP, the iNuke even has variable limiter/ equalizer functions, which can be matched to the sub's x-max.
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If you want a complete instruction, build a volume with 140 liter /5 cubic feet inside. Fill with poly or rock wool.
Install a Dayton UM15-22 or UM18-22. You are done. 15 and 18" do work in the same volume, 18" should give 3dB more low end and take more power.
Anway, with both you will get the room shaking.
There is one point I may add, which is often ignored. If you mount a woofer with the cone to the floor, the full wheigt of it will pull the suspension down. This may not be a problem with the 15" at 280 Gramm, but matter with 655 Gramm moving in the 18".
Personally I do not like "down fire" constructions that much, as beside from the cone weight problem, with high power sub's, the floor may resonate in an unfavorable way. Exactly what may help smallish woofers.
You probably have no idea what a well constricted 15” combined with a 1000W amp will do in a mid sized room. Your PA friend will get a real surprise...
Install a Dayton UM15-22 or UM18-22. You are done. 15 and 18" do work in the same volume, 18" should give 3dB more low end and take more power.
Anway, with both you will get the room shaking.
There is one point I may add, which is often ignored. If you mount a woofer with the cone to the floor, the full wheigt of it will pull the suspension down. This may not be a problem with the 15" at 280 Gramm, but matter with 655 Gramm moving in the 18".
Personally I do not like "down fire" constructions that much, as beside from the cone weight problem, with high power sub's, the floor may resonate in an unfavorable way. Exactly what may help smallish woofers.
You probably have no idea what a well constricted 15” combined with a 1000W amp will do in a mid sized room. Your PA friend will get a real surprise...
So what you guess suggest looking when I load drivers into winisd. I've watch so many youtube tutorial, but yet, I find that tutorial only show how they do. they dont show or explain when you have volume constraint.
I have like 8 driver loaded.
from what you guys said, I be better with lower end extension. In order to make sure i have the ''best'' low end extension, I look at the transfer magnitude function? or max SPL?
So I cleaned up a bit (see second screenshot)
Also, its only 1x UM12, not 2.
From transfer function magnitude, id go with UM18 vented.
From Maximum SPL too.
but the Um18 sealed respone's is very smooth
UM18 vented F3:24hz
UM sealed F3: 27hz QTC 0.817
Also, not that I will never listen to the system louder, just maybe 5 to 10 time per year. Definetely not on a daily basis. But I do like to know that I could if I would. if that make sense.
Any, thanks again guys. your help is really appreciated!
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You're right, I dont know what a 15 with 1000w can do.
I've heard 3 'real' sub in my life:
10in I build the box for, box was designed by a guy online, 12in Klipsch one of my friend have, and my 10in jamo - that's it
If down firing subs are not ideal. What are the option ? Having on one of the sides with a cloth grill ? To do this I dont quite have the height for a 18''
Not that I have maybe other choice, but maybe I should make sure the placement is good at that place ?
I thought about your cabinet size, this is why I would take the 15". It may fit on a side and work as down fire too, The 18" makes problems in any configuration.
Please do not only look on a simulation program, keep in mind what you need for your situation. You will not find even a trace of the predicted response in your room. The room and sub interact. Very often the measured (and heard) response is lower than the f3 point a program calculates, 10Hz are not unrealistic. Which explains what some people post on the net.
Your room is hopefully not that bad for bass, as it has irregularities and open sides. The way to go ist to measure at the listening spot and use a DSP to flaten out the rollercoaster you will find. Then run Audessey and finally spice to taste.
Please do not only look on a simulation program, keep in mind what you need for your situation. You will not find even a trace of the predicted response in your room. The room and sub interact. Very often the measured (and heard) response is lower than the f3 point a program calculates, 10Hz are not unrealistic. Which explains what some people post on the net.
Your room is hopefully not that bad for bass, as it has irregularities and open sides. The way to go ist to measure at the listening spot and use a DSP to flaten out the rollercoaster you will find. Then run Audessey and finally spice to taste.
Re the UM 18's down firing sag: 24,849 / ( 22 × 21.5²) = ~2.443%, so well below the long term 5% rule.
OK, based on your open format room, vented is out per Hornresp for the UM18 since EQ'd flat to 20 Hz for 'chest thump' requires ~420 W and the vent sims 7.5" dia. x ~56.65" long, so EQ'd sealed and better overall to use dual opposed lowest Fs, most Xmax 15" you can afford.
A quick look-see of the Criton speaker's 100 W power handling isn't enough to reach THX reference, but probably plenty loud enough compared to typical TV action/music movie volumes and as already noted, the room's acoustics is going to really tax Audyssey's ability to get its acoustics all sorted out good enough for a coherent enough soundfield.
Many years ago I built a sealed box sub from a Wireless World design into a coffee table about 30" square and 10" deep, with 2" legs.
I used two KEF B139 drivers driven from a 100watt and active crossover.
It shook the house.
You can still buy the B139 but they are very expensive but that's what I'd use.
https://www.falconacoustics.co.uk/falcon-b139-8-ohm-kef-b139-sp1044-replacement-woofer.html
Thank you for the link to the formula for sagging. Didn’t even think it was a thing before.
Just want to make sure I understand what you’re telling me right.
So vented 18 is not good because it didn’t eq’ed flat in horn resp. Also port was too long?!
Better to use sealed 15. Better to build a box for dual opposed 15 if I can.
If I go dual 15, I would need to put them in the end of the table as having on the top of the table and the other on the bottom would be weird?!
I guess that opposed doesn’t necessarily mean really on opposed surface? Does opposed can mean, opposed in “phase”?
Also, Could I build the 5ft^3 with one sub, and when I have monye for the second woofer, i cut the hole, and install the other one ?
I'd wanted to spend 600$ max on the driver.
2 15'' would set me back of 800$, so 200$ more than waht I wanted to spend.
I'd wanted to spend 600$ max on the driver.
2 15'' would set me back of 800$, so 200$ more than waht I wanted to spend.
You're welcome!
Only because the vent takes up too much space, to the point where it ideally needs to be a proper TQWT. The UM18 + your amp has gobs of power handling to EQ it flat in room.
All things considered, yes.
Correct.
Opposed means just that 🙂 and required to get a measure of rocking/coupling balance ideally required for somewhat cancelling out high Xmax vibrations that otherwise require adding mass quantities of removable weight (at least 2x the speaker's weight IME) to keep the down-firing UM/whatever from 'drumming' your house and every resonant piece of it if not somehow isolated, i.e. fine china, knic-knacks, wall hung pics the first to go. 🙁