Let me start out by saying, I decided to take this little project upon myself because:
A) I need a lightweight ultraportable cab for gigging (doubling DB and EB)
B) I love woodwork
C) I am capable of basic electrical work
I have a speaker sitting around that I thought would be perfect for this project. It is a Faital 10hp1020
Now this particular woofer has great response between 60hz and 3k. It is 8 ohms and handles 700w RMS.
So I am going to make a 110 cab. Originally I was just going to make a nice ported box, and throw the woofer in it, throw an amp on it and be good. Which probably would be fine for Upright Bass, and maybe even ok for electric. Then I started thinking about harmonic frequencies and thought you know, it might be good to double this over with a tweeter and a crossover for a better experience >2.5k (namely harmonics and slap etc).
I have been looking at compression horns to use in conjunction, but I am not really sure what power rating I should be looking at. The woofer can handle 700 watts AES and Max 1400, but am I ever going to really be pushing that through (probably not). It will start out with an Aguilar 500 Tonehammer amp powering the cab..and likely will rarely receive more than 350 watts.
I already have this particular woofer, and have for a while so I thought this would be a good use for it. Combine it with a nice compression driver/horn (not sure which one yet) I just want something that isn't going to blow, and cost isn't a huge deal. (not for this small of a project)
With a passive crossover at around 1800-2k. (I have been reading on here and various places about building crossovers and I am going to try my hand at it). I suppose I am just posting for thoughts, reflections, and advice?
In case you want to know (Further woofer specs):
Woofer specs
So, thoughts, reflections, advice?
EG: You are crazy, etc etc. / This would be a much better tweeter choice..
A) I need a lightweight ultraportable cab for gigging (doubling DB and EB)
B) I love woodwork
C) I am capable of basic electrical work
I have a speaker sitting around that I thought would be perfect for this project. It is a Faital 10hp1020
Now this particular woofer has great response between 60hz and 3k. It is 8 ohms and handles 700w RMS.
So I am going to make a 110 cab. Originally I was just going to make a nice ported box, and throw the woofer in it, throw an amp on it and be good. Which probably would be fine for Upright Bass, and maybe even ok for electric. Then I started thinking about harmonic frequencies and thought you know, it might be good to double this over with a tweeter and a crossover for a better experience >2.5k (namely harmonics and slap etc).
I have been looking at compression horns to use in conjunction, but I am not really sure what power rating I should be looking at. The woofer can handle 700 watts AES and Max 1400, but am I ever going to really be pushing that through (probably not). It will start out with an Aguilar 500 Tonehammer amp powering the cab..and likely will rarely receive more than 350 watts.
I already have this particular woofer, and have for a while so I thought this would be a good use for it. Combine it with a nice compression driver/horn (not sure which one yet) I just want something that isn't going to blow, and cost isn't a huge deal. (not for this small of a project)
With a passive crossover at around 1800-2k. (I have been reading on here and various places about building crossovers and I am going to try my hand at it). I suppose I am just posting for thoughts, reflections, and advice?
In case you want to know (Further woofer specs):
Woofer specs
So, thoughts, reflections, advice?
EG: You are crazy, etc etc. / This would be a much better tweeter choice..
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I'd try just running the 10". A lot of bassists run 10"s without tweeters. If you've got tone controls on the amp, nudging up the treble control will probably have the effect you're after, without having to add all the complexity of a passive crossover and tweeter.
Chris
Chris
Hi,
A 4" compression driver with suitable horn is a little OTT,
nevermind rather large for a compact 10" speaker.
It looks like you should get away with a simple
horn and high pass only filter at around 3KHz.
Eminence BGH25-8 1" Bass Guitar Horn/Driver 25W
Is an idea. Note that you''ll be knocking output back by at least 10dB,
via an L-pad to match your 96dB driver, 25W is not an issue at all.
rgds, sreten.
Cabinet should be around 0.5cuft tuned to 42Hz (low E)
A 4" compression driver with suitable horn is a little OTT,
nevermind rather large for a compact 10" speaker.
It looks like you should get away with a simple
horn and high pass only filter at around 3KHz.
Eminence BGH25-8 1" Bass Guitar Horn/Driver 25W
Is an idea. Note that you''ll be knocking output back by at least 10dB,
via an L-pad to match your 96dB driver, 25W is not an issue at all.
rgds, sreten.
Cabinet should be around 0.5cuft tuned to 42Hz (low E)
Thanks
Like I said, I am an excellent woodworker, and I can put anything together on a board, solder anything, but a little light on the sound engineering angle. Appreciate the device, yeah that other tweeter that for some stupid reason I posted was ridiculously heavy.
I think I will make it similar to a Crazy 8 box with one tweeter above, The 10hp1020 is so odd in it's range I felt like I needed a tweeter with it.
Thank you for taking the time for suggestions guys, open to any and all 🙂
Like I said, I am an excellent woodworker, and I can put anything together on a board, solder anything, but a little light on the sound engineering angle. Appreciate the device, yeah that other tweeter that for some stupid reason I posted was ridiculously heavy.
I think I will make it similar to a Crazy 8 box with one tweeter above, The 10hp1020 is so odd in it's range I felt like I needed a tweeter with it.
Thank you for taking the time for suggestions guys, open to any and all 🙂
Bah, although Chris has me thinking "to tweet or not to tweet" . I hate the 140 character limit, and the stupid look at me responses, but seriously..then with this particular woofer (which I know is an odd sort (although I think it will do very nicely for DB)) to tweet or not to tweet? I have heard many times that a tweeter is unnecessary in a bass cab, and you'd be better off with a mid, but man I was looking at some Faital HF compression curves and sheesh this one (EG🙂 is very flat from 500 hz to 18k..It doesn't seem like (on paper which is divergent from reality many times) that one of these cued in at 2.5 or 3k would leave a 1 or 2k gap with the woofer, and then would be able to handle harmonics, slap, and some gospel a bit better perhaps? Or perhaps I'm overthinking it and just need to either not go with a tweeter or with one like the eminence mentioned above.
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Since weight seems to be an issue how about something like this if you decide to tweet:
Overview
Only weighs 400g with horn.
If you put a switch before the high pass and use a variable L-pad like this LC 57
you've got maximum flexibility in one little box.
If it doesn't move enough air you can just add another 10" in it's own box and it'll still be lightweight and transportable.
Overview
Only weighs 400g with horn.
If you put a switch before the high pass and use a variable L-pad like this LC 57
you've got maximum flexibility in one little box.
If it doesn't move enough air you can just add another 10" in it's own box and it'll still be lightweight and transportable.
Hi,
The Eminence IMO is your best bet. It does what it needs to.
Its recommended x/o frequency of 2.5KHz is ideal for the 10".
X/o then L-pad (I'd recommend 50W), then tweeter.
Frequency response of the tweeter looks poor, but make no
mistake, that is purposeful, its about adding presence but
not being harsh, which can be a major tweeter problem.
rgds,sreten.
The Eminence IMO is your best bet. It does what it needs to.
Its recommended x/o frequency of 2.5KHz is ideal for the 10".
X/o then L-pad (I'd recommend 50W), then tweeter.
Frequency response of the tweeter looks poor, but make no
mistake, that is purposeful, its about adding presence but
not being harsh, which can be a major tweeter problem.
rgds,sreten.
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Hi,
To add to the above, the Eminence, turned up
via the L-pad, will give a huge presence boost.
rgds, sreten.
To add to the above, the Eminence, turned up
via the L-pad, will give a huge presence boost.
rgds, sreten.
Any of these small flared tweeters will work just fine.
There is also a movement in the diy bass cab community to use small fullrange mids instead of tweeters. This requires bigger parts and more accurate sims/real measurements. With a 10" driver I think you'll be plenty satisfied with a tweeter.
There is also a movement in the diy bass cab community to use small fullrange mids instead of tweeters. This requires bigger parts and more accurate sims/real measurements. With a 10" driver I think you'll be plenty satisfied with a tweeter.
Well I believe then I will go ahead and order the Eminence horn, I suppose that was my only concern was that the response curve seemed so peaky. I have a feeling I will turn the tweeter off for DB and back on for EB. Just need to work on building a crossover now 🙂. Thank you guys for all of your suggestions. I'll post pics of progress if anyone is interested.
I am currently estimating that the cabinet will be 18" tall, 12" wide, and 15" deep, with two decent sized ports tuned to 41 hz.
I reckon that I will use 3/4 birch ply, and coat with duratex, although I have played with the idea of a stained finish (just reticent due to gig damage and scratching etc). Tweeter crossover at 2500 hz with a 50 watt L-Pad. I also think I might put in a switch to bypass the crossover (If I wanted everything to come through woofer for DB), that way it would give me great flexibility in using the tweeter, turning it down but still having rolled off crossover, or cutting it completely out. I plan on putting in two parallel wired Neutrik Speakon Jacks. If it turns out well I might make one more 110 in the case that I need more sound.
I am currently estimating that the cabinet will be 18" tall, 12" wide, and 15" deep, with two decent sized ports tuned to 41 hz.
I reckon that I will use 3/4 birch ply, and coat with duratex, although I have played with the idea of a stained finish (just reticent due to gig damage and scratching etc). Tweeter crossover at 2500 hz with a 50 watt L-Pad. I also think I might put in a switch to bypass the crossover (If I wanted everything to come through woofer for DB), that way it would give me great flexibility in using the tweeter, turning it down but still having rolled off crossover, or cutting it completely out. I plan on putting in two parallel wired Neutrik Speakon Jacks. If it turns out well I might make one more 110 in the case that I need more sound.
Hi,
Your cabinet at 1.35cuft is rather large for a 0.5cuft Vas driver with a low Qts.
It will give a loose one-note peak. 0.5cuft is ideal, maximum I'd say is 0.75cuft.
You could easily fit two of your 10" drivers in that cabinet volume tuned to 41Hz.
FWIW nearly all guitar and bass speakers have a pronounced presence peak.
I really can't see the tweeter making DB worse, quite the opposite.
FWIW for good reasons music cabs are never deeper than they are wide.
Bigger wider baffles help with lowering the inevitable baffle step loss.
rgds, sreten.
Your cabinet at 1.35cuft is rather large for a 0.5cuft Vas driver with a low Qts.
It will give a loose one-note peak. 0.5cuft is ideal, maximum I'd say is 0.75cuft.
You could easily fit two of your 10" drivers in that cabinet volume tuned to 41Hz.
FWIW nearly all guitar and bass speakers have a pronounced presence peak.
I really can't see the tweeter making DB worse, quite the opposite.
FWIW for good reasons music cabs are never deeper than they are wide.
Bigger wider baffles help with lowering the inevitable baffle step loss.
rgds, sreten.
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This driver isn't the most suitable for bass but it'll work ok. If possible, consider selling it and getting something like the Faital 12pr300, Eminence s2012, deltalite 2512, kappalite 3012.
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I will shorten the depth of the box, it isn't 1.35 cubic feet though, that is the total size of the box, the tweeter is actually in a separate section in my current design and part of the area is slot port...WHICH
is what I am having a problem with.
I am using WinISD, but it is screwy with the port. I am having a problem figuring what size/volume the port needs to be in order to tune a .51 cubic ft enclosure area to 41 hz, WinISD is throwing ridiculous numbers at me like 100 inch port length. What are the equations for this (math I can do). I would think that the smaller the enclosure volume the smaller the port needed.
It seems that I ignored some math and physics, as the larger the area of the port opening, the greater the length required for appropriate tuning, in shrinking the area, it shrinks the required length. Back to crazy box design.
is what I am having a problem with.
I am using WinISD, but it is screwy with the port. I am having a problem figuring what size/volume the port needs to be in order to tune a .51 cubic ft enclosure area to 41 hz, WinISD is throwing ridiculous numbers at me like 100 inch port length. What are the equations for this (math I can do). I would think that the smaller the enclosure volume the smaller the port needed.
It seems that I ignored some math and physics, as the larger the area of the port opening, the greater the length required for appropriate tuning, in shrinking the area, it shrinks the required length. Back to crazy box design.
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ISDonline (haven't got Windows) gives me a length of 35cm for port area of 40cm^2 for a 15L box with a tuning frequency of 45Hz.
In ye olde measurements that is 13.77 inch, 6.2 square inch and 0.53cubic ft respectively.
The response drops gently below 200Hz by a few dB and steeply (obviously) below 45Hz.
Could be made up by boundary reinforcement (ie plonk them on the floor) or eq but I don't think it is a major issue in your application.
I wouldn't obsess too much about tuning to below 42Hz unless you play the E string open a lot!
In ye olde measurements that is 13.77 inch, 6.2 square inch and 0.53cubic ft respectively.
The response drops gently below 200Hz by a few dB and steeply (obviously) below 45Hz.
Could be made up by boundary reinforcement (ie plonk them on the floor) or eq but I don't think it is a major issue in your application.
I wouldn't obsess too much about tuning to below 42Hz unless you play the E string open a lot!
Yep, having a port with a large cross-sectional area in a small box and tuned low will mean the port will be very long.
If you reduce the area, the required length shortens, but you also run the risk of chuffing at high volumes.
If you picture the ported system as a spring-mass system...
- the air inside the cabinet is the spring
- the lump of air inside the port is the mass
- if you make the cabinet smaller, the air spring is stiffer
- a stiffer spring needs a larger mass to maintain a given resonant frequency
- therefore, you need a larger lump of air.
Its more complicated than that, since the ratio of width to length of the port contributes to the tuning frequency, but hopefully now you'll see why smaller cabinets need longer ports.
Chris
If you reduce the area, the required length shortens, but you also run the risk of chuffing at high volumes.
If you picture the ported system as a spring-mass system...
- the air inside the cabinet is the spring
- the lump of air inside the port is the mass
- if you make the cabinet smaller, the air spring is stiffer
- a stiffer spring needs a larger mass to maintain a given resonant frequency
- therefore, you need a larger lump of air.
Its more complicated than that, since the ratio of width to length of the port contributes to the tuning frequency, but hopefully now you'll see why smaller cabinets need longer ports.
Chris
I can see the physics behind it now surely, thank you.
With such a small enclosure area, and large excursion of this small speaker, I am a bit worried about "chuffing". I would think that would be a lot of air movement, which has me debating whether to do one flared port or two ports perhaps to reduce this a bit. As I said earlier, my audio engineering knowledge leaves some to be desired sure, but I can make anything woodwork wise. Thank you guys for all your valuable help.
With such a small enclosure area, and large excursion of this small speaker, I am a bit worried about "chuffing". I would think that would be a lot of air movement, which has me debating whether to do one flared port or two ports perhaps to reduce this a bit. As I said earlier, my audio engineering knowledge leaves some to be desired sure, but I can make anything woodwork wise. Thank you guys for all your valuable help.
A flared port would be a good idea for chuffing. I built a 1x12 bass cab with a 4" port and I do get chuffing at high volume.
If I were using this speaker I would use a .5ft box tuned to 60. A 4"x15" pvc or abs pipe with an elbow joint or two would help it fit inside and take approximately .12ft in volume. Air speed comes in at about 27m/s at 350w. A little high but should be fine with a flare. Actual tuning may need to be measured and adjusted. My experience with winisd is that tuning usually comes in a little lower than predicted. Should be close enough in either case.
If I were using this speaker I would use a .5ft box tuned to 60. A 4"x15" pvc or abs pipe with an elbow joint or two would help it fit inside and take approximately .12ft in volume. Air speed comes in at about 27m/s at 350w. A little high but should be fine with a flare. Actual tuning may need to be measured and adjusted. My experience with winisd is that tuning usually comes in a little lower than predicted. Should be close enough in either case.
Alright then, I have made the cab a bit smaller, accounting for port and speaker volume it is right at .50 cubic feet inside. 2 Triangular ports along the bottom.
Looking good.
I think in your case the ports should probably a wee bit shorter than calculated.
There will be a stub of air confined by the inside box corners that will add to the effective port air mass.
Happens with free standing port tubes as well but less so.
Problem is I know of no way to calculate that so if you want to be really precise about it you may have to screw the pieces in, test and trim the length off until you get where you wanna be. Once there glue them.
Personally I'm not sure such precision is necessary for an instrument speaker. If it sounds good it is good in this case.
A bit of open cell foam might help with chuffing.
I think in your case the ports should probably a wee bit shorter than calculated.
There will be a stub of air confined by the inside box corners that will add to the effective port air mass.
Happens with free standing port tubes as well but less so.
Problem is I know of no way to calculate that so if you want to be really precise about it you may have to screw the pieces in, test and trim the length off until you get where you wanna be. Once there glue them.
Personally I'm not sure such precision is necessary for an instrument speaker. If it sounds good it is good in this case.
A bit of open cell foam might help with chuffing.
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This is a very small cab, however, experts like Bill Fitzmaurice recommend lining all sides of every box with foam. (I believe he would also say if the box is sized properly stuffing is un-needed). Most acoustic and open cell foam is at least 1 inch thick, in this small of a box, woshould I try and get something more like 1/2 inch?
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