Hi all
How would you describe the sound characteristics you hear when listening to
1.Open Baffle
2. Di- Pole
3. A classic vented 3-way
Trying to find a good build to give me a good sound anywhere in the room, and something that has nice thick bass even at lower spl.
Cheers!
How would you describe the sound characteristics you hear when listening to
1.Open Baffle
2. Di- Pole
3. A classic vented 3-way
Trying to find a good build to give me a good sound anywhere in the room, and something that has nice thick bass even at lower spl.
Cheers!
As an open baffle tends towards small to zero baffle, you get to a dipole. I find dipole systems, when setup correctly in a relatively live room with a front wall that is reflective, to provide the best imaging and sound stage of any type of speaker. Speakers in boxes can sound good, but always fall short of the best dipole system IMHO.
Taking that approach down to the low end... some claim that dipole subwoofers are better in that they excite fewer room modes. The problem is that they... don't excite your senses like monopole subs do. In any case dipole subs do not eliminate room mode issues, only perhaps make them slightly less bad in general. YMMV.
My solution is this:
nude (that is ZERO baffle folks) tweeter and midrange
Midrange must be able to operate down to about 350Hz
Woofer is made up of a panel (about 20x20" or 0.5x0.5m) of several 8" or 10" low-distortion drivers.
The woofer panel operates from 350Hz down to about 80 Hz.
Sealed subs operate below 80Hz. Use as many as you would like, arranged in the room for the best "bass" response. It's not a new problem, so there are workable solutions out there. IMO sealed subs give the most accurate bass without being flabby.
I am a proponent of dipole systems in general, and I find they can provide the best listening experience. But the room does play a part, and dipole and OB systems do need more space to work best. Keep that in mind.
Taking that approach down to the low end... some claim that dipole subwoofers are better in that they excite fewer room modes. The problem is that they... don't excite your senses like monopole subs do. In any case dipole subs do not eliminate room mode issues, only perhaps make them slightly less bad in general. YMMV.
My solution is this:
nude (that is ZERO baffle folks) tweeter and midrange
Midrange must be able to operate down to about 350Hz
Woofer is made up of a panel (about 20x20" or 0.5x0.5m) of several 8" or 10" low-distortion drivers.
The woofer panel operates from 350Hz down to about 80 Hz.
Sealed subs operate below 80Hz. Use as many as you would like, arranged in the room for the best "bass" response. It's not a new problem, so there are workable solutions out there. IMO sealed subs give the most accurate bass without being flabby.
I am a proponent of dipole systems in general, and I find they can provide the best listening experience. But the room does play a part, and dipole and OB systems do need more space to work best. Keep that in mind.
there is something lacking - but also special - about dipole bass. the frequency is there to hear, but the pressurization is absent.
IMO this works very well with classical, jazz, other acoustic genres. also it doesn't rattle your windows and dishes in the cupboard.
for people who have close neighbors, apartment dwellers, etc I think it's a very civilized solution.
but you do need quite a bit of driver displacement to get to the point where dipole bass is satisfying.
as for the rest, CharlieLaub has it right: minimal baffle is the way to go for real "dipole" sound
to do this well usually demands 3 way + subs with DSP/active filters and very capable drivers.
not to say you have to do this to make an enjoyable open baffle speaker
you can thoughtfully screw a few drivers to a plank
the lack of box resonance and presence of delayed rear wall reflections is nice in itself.
IMO this works very well with classical, jazz, other acoustic genres. also it doesn't rattle your windows and dishes in the cupboard.
for people who have close neighbors, apartment dwellers, etc I think it's a very civilized solution.
but you do need quite a bit of driver displacement to get to the point where dipole bass is satisfying.
as for the rest, CharlieLaub has it right: minimal baffle is the way to go for real "dipole" sound
to do this well usually demands 3 way + subs with DSP/active filters and very capable drivers.
not to say you have to do this to make an enjoyable open baffle speaker
you can thoughtfully screw a few drivers to a plank
the lack of box resonance and presence of delayed rear wall reflections is nice in itself.
..... or like both the above posts have recommended, as long as you dont have neighbours, go sealed subs < 80Hz and dipole >80hz
my room consist of :
among those 3 different configurations, each of them have different strong and weakness, but i can choose which one to hear based on my mood and music preferences. Fullrange and OB is perfect for slow classizal jazz music, but lack of midbass slam for modern hip hop rock ska genre which is covered by ported type
- 4way active dsp Open Baffle with 21"+12"+5"+dipole ribbon
- 8" fullrange in bass reflex + fostex t90a super tweeter
- 3 way active dsp Dynaudio ported 9"+5"+dome tweeter
- plus additional dual-opposed sealed 2x12" infinity kappa perfect 12VQ in 150L box and there are 2 of them for left and right
among those 3 different configurations, each of them have different strong and weakness, but i can choose which one to hear based on my mood and music preferences. Fullrange and OB is perfect for slow classizal jazz music, but lack of midbass slam for modern hip hop rock ska genre which is covered by ported type
I will be lucky to get one pair of speakers in a room. I would love to be in a position to have more!
Even after using a 21" driver you are not getting midbass. sad to know that. I was under impression 21' will be enough
I also have Alpair 10P in mini onken enclosure, still enjoyable with it's limitation
at first i was enjoying the midbass from 21", sometimes i switch to 3way by not using 12" so higher xo around 320Hz for 21" and 5". different character.
but after having familiar with it's sound, my mind and ears says something was missing especially when playing music with alot of drums. adding eQ did not help either. that's where ported box gave me what i was missing in the range of around 100-300Hz.
maybe also the fact that I'm using pro Audio driver with low qts around 0.3, I had a thought to try higher qts 15" or 12" driver but never did it
you have to try several combinations to get what you expected, and that's the power of using DSP and building several amplifier really help me. because until now i had never any good luck designing my own passive XO even if i had tried several times.
my info/remarks
-loudspeaker "designs" for a certain genre of music do NOT work
-dipole effect is only applicable in open baffle designs, it is mostly accepted as a "side effect" of open baffle
-a good loudspeaker design stays neutral, any unwanted "amplification" of either frequencies, bass-mid-treble , means you have to go back to the drawing board
-material and construction of your baffle can play a significant role, as much as your crossover design(or the absence of it)
-and last but not least , the synergie(with your audio setup-amp!) , room placement and size of your room , play an important role in your hearing experience
-loudspeaker "designs" for a certain genre of music do NOT work
-dipole effect is only applicable in open baffle designs, it is mostly accepted as a "side effect" of open baffle
-a good loudspeaker design stays neutral, any unwanted "amplification" of either frequencies, bass-mid-treble , means you have to go back to the drawing board
-material and construction of your baffle can play a significant role, as much as your crossover design(or the absence of it)
-and last but not least , the synergie(with your audio setup-amp!) , room placement and size of your room , play an important role in your hearing experience
you are totally wrong, there is not 1 single speaker that can cover all genres
some like Fullrange like Lowther,Fostex,Feastrex with so many iteration on the box type call it Horn loaded, Nude Baffle, TL etc. and some like multiway Wilson Audio, Avalon,Magico and many other brand.
even the new comer of OB by Kyron Kronos started with only 2x12" but later additional subwoofer was introduced, it was not fot nothing.
this DIY anyway, build what you want & what you can. only sky and your wallet is the limit. after having several types of speaker and amplifier, I'm still going to build another projects. and upgrade my dsp is also in my list.
notes : I'm enjoying to listen with different types of speaker driver/size and amplifier class, different crossover point & slope, different type of boxes. look at how many permutations are available for me. same way with my hobby with cooking, different types of meats and veggies along with cooking method will give different taste, even different meal name.
ymmv
As Charlie pointed out, the room is a huge factor. The best thing about DIY is that you can design the system optimally for your room.
Is it a small room and the speakers will be shoved into the corners on either side of the TV close to the rear wall? Is it a large room and you're going to be sitting 15 feet away from speakers that are 3 feet away from any walls? When do room modes start kicking in and does the bass match the room? Too much bass gain can mask detail and sound one note fart box boomy just as a speaker can.
Many factors determine the size and type of speakers that will perform best in a given space.
Is it a small room and the speakers will be shoved into the corners on either side of the TV close to the rear wall? Is it a large room and you're going to be sitting 15 feet away from speakers that are 3 feet away from any walls? When do room modes start kicking in and does the bass match the room? Too much bass gain can mask detail and sound one note fart box boomy just as a speaker can.
Many factors determine the size and type of speakers that will perform best in a given space.
Sitting about 8 feet away from speakers. The [living] room is 15ft x 10ft, with an 8ft ceiling, 3 walls, that then opens out into a kitchen 25ft x 12 ft which has a 20ft vaulted ceiling. Tiled floor throughout. Speakers will be placed against the walls
This bit of kit would meet all your needs and rock the kitchen too. And probably the basement, garage, etc. lol
I'm not affiliated with Zaph or Madisound whatsoever, but it's a helluva value and the subs are built in. Bass o'plenty
I'm not affiliated with Zaph or Madisound whatsoever, but it's a helluva value and the subs are built in. Bass o'plenty
Since space and size are a concern, a compact TMWW will make the most sense…..but NOT easy to design ground up…best to build a proven design or purchase full assembled commercial system……Polk R7 is quite the gold standard of 2021/2022…..the design is simply spectacular for the $$$ and would be near impossible to surpass if you quantified your DIY efforts from research,design, components, construction and finish.
Open Baffles tend to be poor dipoles. But an OB with VC drivers is classified as a dipole. Poor dipole is not exclusive to VC OBs, but the worst are OBs with no rear radiation at higher frequencies
Where a 2-way closed box (or an any-way closed box) vrs a dipole/OB is hugely dependent on execution.
An box has to deal with a box (don’t think that some of the issues do not exist in an OB) and in an OB/dipole you have to deal wit hthe backwave and the problems that cause.
Pick you poison. Trust your ears (they are the only thing you need to satisfy).
dave
Where a 2-way closed box (or an any-way closed box) vrs a dipole/OB is hugely dependent on execution.
An box has to deal with a box (don’t think that some of the issues do not exist in an OB) and in an OB/dipole you have to deal wit hthe backwave and the problems that cause.
Pick you poison. Trust your ears (they are the only thing you need to satisfy).
dave
Probably took me a longer time to fully appreciate this than any other aspect. A great speaker doesn't sound great if it's put in a room that it's not suited for.