Hey all,
I've started going down the DIY rabbit hole a little deeper and find myself in the need of additional testing equipment than I've been using for tube builds. Currently in my toolbox are a few cheap-o DMM's, a Fluke 117, Peak LCR45 and a Velleman DCA55 Semiconductor Analyzer. Last summer I saw an old Conar 255 oscilloscope for $20 at a garage sale but now I'm convinced I should just get something modern instead of doing a restoration and questioning everything it spits out. Maybe a fun future project but for now I'd just like to get up and going. Something modern-ish but am Ok with used if its a good bit of kit.
What do you guys recommend for a good testing / electronical / audio bench testing rig? I don't need to spend 10k but would like to start putting together a decent set up that will go for the long haul. Appreciate any recommendations!
I've started going down the DIY rabbit hole a little deeper and find myself in the need of additional testing equipment than I've been using for tube builds. Currently in my toolbox are a few cheap-o DMM's, a Fluke 117, Peak LCR45 and a Velleman DCA55 Semiconductor Analyzer. Last summer I saw an old Conar 255 oscilloscope for $20 at a garage sale but now I'm convinced I should just get something modern instead of doing a restoration and questioning everything it spits out. Maybe a fun future project but for now I'd just like to get up and going. Something modern-ish but am Ok with used if its a good bit of kit.
What do you guys recommend for a good testing / electronical / audio bench testing rig? I don't need to spend 10k but would like to start putting together a decent set up that will go for the long haul. Appreciate any recommendations!
You don't actually need much stuff;
-The entry level scopes are soooooo good anymore - the Rigol DHO802 is amazing for just a bit more than $300. A boatanchor scope like that Conar would be a great project for restoration in order to learn stuff, but at the end wouldn't be a particularly useful tool.
-Quant Asylum QA403, which the equivalent even 10yr ago would cost tens of thousands...
-A good bipolar bench PSU like a rigol DP832 that can power a class-a amp channel
And that's about it.
-The entry level scopes are soooooo good anymore - the Rigol DHO802 is amazing for just a bit more than $300. A boatanchor scope like that Conar would be a great project for restoration in order to learn stuff, but at the end wouldn't be a particularly useful tool.
-Quant Asylum QA403, which the equivalent even 10yr ago would cost tens of thousands...
-A good bipolar bench PSU like a rigol DP832 that can power a class-a amp channel
And that's about it.
Thanks for the recordation's 6l6! Will look into these units. That DHO802 looks slick- lots of features I'll have to check out
A Tektronix 2215 would be a great place to start. If you're going for a new scope, I'd get one from one of the western brands like Keysight (= HP = Agilent) or Tektronix. I use a Keysight DSOX1102 and love it. But if you don't need the ability to store screen shots to USB, an analog scope would be lower cost and every bit as good.
Tom
Tom
For what it's worth, user interfaces are different per manufacturer - I have a DSOX1204G, from that same series, and I constantly bang my head on the interface. It's a fantastic scope, no doubt, no argument, but for me, the UX is a point of constant frustration. YMMV, of course!
I can't argue with that, great scope, fantastic old-school analog.
One advantage of modern digital scopes is they have counters for everything.
I bought a cheap second hand analogue scope and had that for about 10 years now.
The new digital scopes look nice but look too complicated to use so I stick with what I have.
The new digital scopes look nice but look too complicated to use so I stick with what I have.
I mean to shy away from the cheapies out of China. Brands like Keysight and Tektronix have been designing and producing oscilloscopes for longer than I've been alive and they have a clue about how to make them useful and reliable. I would not trust that the Chinese brands are as well protected against mishaps as, say, Keysight, Tektronix, Fluke, R&S, etc.
I also suggest shying away from PC-based scopes. Last I looked, it seemed some of them are getting decent, but they're often not of much use beyond 20-50 kHz and their input sensitivity is a joke. They're often simply DC-coupled sound cards. Get a real scope with a real trigger and a real front-end.
I still have the Tek 2215 that I picked up while I was in high school. It was used then. It works as well now as it did then. I only upgraded because I found a Tek 2465B in the surplus pile at work and fixed it. I then "side-graded" when I got the DSOX1102. I need it for screen shots ... and it's a very nice scope also.
Tom
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I'd say Rigol and Siglent are probably ok brands from China. The no names on alibaba and amazon are at your own risk. I've got a number of things from Rigol (2 scopes, 2 P/S, DMM and waveform generator) and all have worked fine except the waveform gen. It failed almost immediately. Rigol paid shipping both ways and fixed no charge. I could have returned it for full refund if I wanted. So so far, Rigol has had excellent service for me. I know others here with good experiences with Siglent.
You should always question everything a scope spits out. Lots of ways to get fooled regardless of analog digital.
Hi blue360cuda,
I'm going to disagree with some folks here. You really want a good analogue oscilloscope. Digital models have a number of issues as they sample and can lie to you. You really need to be familiar with how a normal scope works, then maybe get a digital one. They are good for screen captures (so is a digital camera). Some measurements, but the traces are noisy and limited in detail. That and if you are looking for intermittents and some other things, many digital scopes are blind a significant amount of time. They are not sampling the signal all the time. You also need about 5x the bandwidth, so to properly see a 100 MHz signal, you need a 500 MHz digital scope.
So what do I use? I have several great analogue scopes, including a Tek 2465B CT (which I do not like), some Philips dual trace 100 MHz scopes (my favorites) and an Agilent 54642D and a Keysight MSOX3104T. Pricey. The analogue scopes show CD eye patterns much better. For the hobbyist or service person, there is nothing better than a nice analogue oscilloscope. A digital scope is the second scope, the analogue is really the workhorse that gets more of everything else done. Tek 2235 scopes are great. Cleaner, sharper trace than the 2465B (I had such high hopes for that one).
I'm going to disagree with some folks here. You really want a good analogue oscilloscope. Digital models have a number of issues as they sample and can lie to you. You really need to be familiar with how a normal scope works, then maybe get a digital one. They are good for screen captures (so is a digital camera). Some measurements, but the traces are noisy and limited in detail. That and if you are looking for intermittents and some other things, many digital scopes are blind a significant amount of time. They are not sampling the signal all the time. You also need about 5x the bandwidth, so to properly see a 100 MHz signal, you need a 500 MHz digital scope.
So what do I use? I have several great analogue scopes, including a Tek 2465B CT (which I do not like), some Philips dual trace 100 MHz scopes (my favorites) and an Agilent 54642D and a Keysight MSOX3104T. Pricey. The analogue scopes show CD eye patterns much better. For the hobbyist or service person, there is nothing better than a nice analogue oscilloscope. A digital scope is the second scope, the analogue is really the workhorse that gets more of everything else done. Tek 2235 scopes are great. Cleaner, sharper trace than the 2465B (I had such high hopes for that one).
I agree with tomchr. However, I just purchased a Brymen (Taiwan) BM789 which meets several safety regulations throughout the EU and Canada. Not sure if it fits into the "cheapies" category though (at about $200 USD) so maybe doesn't fit what he was saying. What Fluke does for long-term certification and usage is more useful to those in the trade. For me (a hobbyist) the specs on the Brymen are outstanding for the price: the equivalent Fluke would cost me over $450. As always, YMMV.
To note: The Rigols have a well-known history of being easily hacked to enable functionality of higher models. Worth a little bit of web searching and reading.
To note: The Rigols have a well-known history of being easily hacked to enable functionality of higher models. Worth a little bit of web searching and reading.
I think analog or DSO depends heavily on what you plan to use it for. If you are doing any digital, the DSO is required. You'll need to think about what you want the scope for. Analog's as anatech says are great for eye patterns. But if you need to capture that once every few seconds or worse, just once events, the DSO is the only choice. They also can trigger on stuff like I2C or SPI or 232 etc. And if you can afford it, 4 channels is better than 2 for digital. SPI as an example is a 4 wire protocol. I've a 4 and a 2 and sometimes I use one to externally trigger the other to grab 6 channels of one-off capture. Another thing the DSO's can do usually is export the captured data. So if you want to further analyze the data that was captured with some software you wrote, you can.
So think about what you want to use the scope for. For audio is a relatively small usage portion for my equipment. I do way more stuff with pi's and other digital.
So think about what you want to use the scope for. For audio is a relatively small usage portion for my equipment. I do way more stuff with pi's and other digital.
This is a bunch of excellent information to digest - thank you all! It seems like a good 'scope is a piece of gear that will be very useful and makes sense to splurge a bit on something quality. For doing 90% audio work would a 100mhz be ok or does it make sense to step up into something better? I read a bit on the DSOX1204G @6L6 recommended, it seems very solid and punches above its weight. Used analog scopes can be had pretty cheap so if an analog would help in some situations I may pick one up down the road just to have but for a first time one I'm leaning towards digital and decent quality. I could even use a digital one to restore my garage sale Conar 255 boat anchor.
If you guys wanted to stay under the 1k price range or ideally under $500 what would you buy in my shoes? I know, I know, its situational but I'd like some specific models to compare since it's pretty overwhelming with so many options. If I could narrow it down to 3 or 4 that'd help me a ton. Other than analog vs digital, what specific features would be useful for audio work? Any specific models stand out as good "bang for buck" without getting too crazy?
Again, thanks everyone!! Very much appreciate the help!
If you guys wanted to stay under the 1k price range or ideally under $500 what would you buy in my shoes? I know, I know, its situational but I'd like some specific models to compare since it's pretty overwhelming with so many options. If I could narrow it down to 3 or 4 that'd help me a ton. Other than analog vs digital, what specific features would be useful for audio work? Any specific models stand out as good "bang for buck" without getting too crazy?
Again, thanks everyone!! Very much appreciate the help!
100 MHz is excellent for audio and analogue work. I did most of my digital stuff using an analogue scope long before digital products were available,
For advanced triggering and capture, a DSO is the way to go. A mixed signal scope is the best if you want to decode serial bus stuff. My MSOX3104T is fully loaded and can ever reply captured signals, and store them.
Sub $1K? Go used analogue. You cannot get decent analogue performance in a DSO for any reasonable money. Mine was purchased for the analogue performance and I still reach for an analogue scope at times. Look at what mine is worth for a wakeup call.
Absolutely, determine what most of your work will be and purchase accordingly.
For advanced triggering and capture, a DSO is the way to go. A mixed signal scope is the best if you want to decode serial bus stuff. My MSOX3104T is fully loaded and can ever reply captured signals, and store them.
Sub $1K? Go used analogue. You cannot get decent analogue performance in a DSO for any reasonable money. Mine was purchased for the analogue performance and I still reach for an analogue scope at times. Look at what mine is worth for a wakeup call.
Absolutely, determine what most of your work will be and purchase accordingly.
As you can see, there is not much opinion convergence.
On your shoes, I'd buy a digital scope below $500.00 for the functionalities you will have at your hands.
That's what I have for me as for my DIY projects ($200.00 Hantek DSO2C10).
You don't need to go that cheap since you leave in US and you have better options.
This was my option since things here where I live are extremelly expensive due to high import taxes.
Anyways, even this cheap one allows me to do everything I need such as pre-amps, EQ's, loudspeakers, power amps, inverters, passive/active crossovers etc.
Functionalites that you greatly help you:
FFT for distortion or S/N measurement, RMS, average, peak measurements, non cyclical events, such as inrush current/voltage event capture (you can leave the scope capturing a signal for 20sec for example and observe it) etc.
Easy to handle, small footprint, very lightweigth and cheap. 100Mhz for audio is more than enough.
There are 12-bit scopes under $500.00 now. So it's worth to take a look. This will allow you to measure S/N or THD in the range of -70dB or 0.02% which is very interesting. 8-bit scopes are limited to -48dB or 0.3%, which is not that much but still will help a lot for most circuits (mine is 8-bit and it's ok for me).
To give you model options, take a look on this YT channel - that guy is an EE and makes good reviews. You can actually see what the equipment does.
Here is an example. You can searh other videos with other scopes - there are many options.
EEVblog 1566 - Rigol DHO800 12 Bit Oscilloscope FULL REVIEW
I recently gave away all my analog scopes, including a nicely fitted out Tek 7000 series, and replaced everything with a single Siglent SDS800X series. It's a joy to use and does just about everything better. I'd never buy an 8-bit digital scope, only the newer 12-bit like these. They start at $339, but I recommend going a bit higher. Or, there's are hacks to change the firmware to the wider bandwidth models; all the hardware is the same. Personally, I don't believe in doing that. Now, normally, this would be my recommendation to most people, but this is the tube forum. The problem with tubes is you routinely look at high voltage points. IMO, it's too easy to blow the front end of digital scopes unless you're careful to always use a 10:1 probe. The input of the Siglents is 400 volts peak. IMO, that would be the only reason to consider an older scope, maybe even tubes. I always loved my boat anchor Tektronix 500 series, though I've gotten old enough I can't lift or service them, one reason I went modern.
That's another great point Conrad.
Many probes are only good for 350 VDC. You must check! I bought some 100:1 probes to deal with tube products (still make certain on the voltage ratings). Older oscilloscope front ends are designed to deal with higher input voltages, and they normally don't get killed when you apply a bit too much. Modern front ends are probably not repairable if you do that.
Input noise is another area where analogue scopes excel over digital products. Since I have both analogue and digital oscilloscopes, and I deal with service, I get to see where each has it's strengths.
I've got two 7000 series mainframes. They take up real-estate.
Many probes are only good for 350 VDC. You must check! I bought some 100:1 probes to deal with tube products (still make certain on the voltage ratings). Older oscilloscope front ends are designed to deal with higher input voltages, and they normally don't get killed when you apply a bit too much. Modern front ends are probably not repairable if you do that.
Input noise is another area where analogue scopes excel over digital products. Since I have both analogue and digital oscilloscopes, and I deal with service, I get to see where each has it's strengths.
I've got two 7000 series mainframes. They take up real-estate.
@Conrad Hoffman Good info re: tubes - Ive built a dozen or so tube projects but have gotten by without a scope so far - would like to learn more and see how I could improve things with the help of a scope. Using my test record and "ear scope" for everything thus far - just the fluke DMM to measure and that LCR45 to match caps.
Also agree to buy what you need instead of fiddling. What specifically do you like about the Siglent SDS800X scopes?
So I got votes for the following -- I'll poke around at specs / reviews but I find it best to get hands-on advice - what, if any, are the major differences between these guys that you find useful in the real world ? Not asking you guys to do my homework for me, I just think there's only so much one can learn reading specs / features and its best to talk to someone who's worked with one or some of them. Again, thank you all!
Siglent SDS800X ----------$300-400ish
Rigol DHO802 -------------$350ish
Keysight DSOX1102 -------$1000ish
(analog) Tektronix 2215 ---$100ish used
Also agree to buy what you need instead of fiddling. What specifically do you like about the Siglent SDS800X scopes?
So I got votes for the following -- I'll poke around at specs / reviews but I find it best to get hands-on advice - what, if any, are the major differences between these guys that you find useful in the real world ? Not asking you guys to do my homework for me, I just think there's only so much one can learn reading specs / features and its best to talk to someone who's worked with one or some of them. Again, thank you all!
Siglent SDS800X ----------$300-400ish
Rigol DHO802 -------------$350ish
Keysight DSOX1102 -------$1000ish
(analog) Tektronix 2215 ---$100ish used