Hey all,
I've pondered around now since over a year what to build next.
Currently I'm well equipped with speakers in two rooms of our apartment; one system in my ~11m² home office and the other in the ~40m² living room.
This is the setup in the living room:
Schnuckelchen with Bliesma T25A, Kartesian Mid120_vHE, Satori WO24P driven by a Hypex FA503.
We want to renovate the living room somewhen next year. The low shelf will be removed then, and the TV will go on the wall with a swivel mount. So there will be space again for floorstanders.
And this in my home office setup:
Scandinavian Connection with Seas 27TAC/GB (or DXT), SB15NBAC30, 2x Scan Speak Discovery 26W on a Hypex FA123.
A bit oversized for 11m², but works surprisingly good.
Further i have some small fun speakers here, the Edelstoff:
But most of the time they live stored up on a cupboard in my home office...
I also still have some unused Scan Speak Illuminator neo tweeters and Revelator midranges on the shelf:
I had planned to build a little 3-way speaker with them on a journey back to my roots, but further thoughts led me to the question where to put all the speakers, and that some modular system might fit my needs better.
I made several simulations and CAD construction for a new woofer base module for the living room setup, last status was the desired drivers for the setup are 2x Revelator Alu 22W or 26W in CB.
All the time I have let the "Scandinavian Connections" out of the equation; I build the enclosures in 2015 and changed drivers a few times, retrofitted the Hypex module, rebuild the internal midrange enclosure. 2019 I won the German IGDH DIY contest with them. So until lastly I wanted to keep them in my home office as they have some history.
But I have made now the final decision to save the large expense on the revelator woofers, and to completely reshuffle the cards with all drivers and modules I already own. The Schnuckelchens and the Scandinavian Connections are going to get completely disassembled and enclosures are to be build all new to achieve an architecture that fits better to my needs and possibilities.
This should give an idea of the basic concept I want to have:
A woofer base module with the 2x Scan Disco 26W and FA503 for the living room, another with the single WO24P and FA123 for my home office. And different tops with different taste of sound that can be interchanged.
I'm really keen on the Bliesma mid dome, so I have it fixed on the roadmap for a ultra clear variant together with the T25A I already own. Will focus to build up the dry, smooth and clear tops first as it will take some more time that I also have saved the additional budged for the M74A. Will store the T25A until then, and might build the needed top enclosure together with the other parts in advance.
As replacement for the partner of the Kartesian mid I've chosen the Audax T025A20 with magnesium dome that is regularly available via TLHP france for overall ~250.-€ a pair (that actually cries for a PHL woofer to make the french team complete, LOL...)
The fresh and crisp variants are not decided yet but shall show what else to try I have in my mind, and drive the platform concept; I'm still working on the decision if every mid/tweeter combination shall get its own cabinet, or if few top cabinets with exchangeable front baffles are the better solution, or something between speciffically on the driver combinations. All has pros and cons.
As I'm not more stucked what to build next, the further plan is to make a final design for 2x woofer bases and 4x tasty top combinations incl. all simulations and sizing, detailed BOM and all CAD during this winter, so until march or so that I can build, measure and tune the setups during spring/summer next year. Will post some outcome for review here from time to time.
Best regards
Peter
I've pondered around now since over a year what to build next.
Currently I'm well equipped with speakers in two rooms of our apartment; one system in my ~11m² home office and the other in the ~40m² living room.
This is the setup in the living room:
Schnuckelchen with Bliesma T25A, Kartesian Mid120_vHE, Satori WO24P driven by a Hypex FA503.
We want to renovate the living room somewhen next year. The low shelf will be removed then, and the TV will go on the wall with a swivel mount. So there will be space again for floorstanders.
And this in my home office setup:
Scandinavian Connection with Seas 27TAC/GB (or DXT), SB15NBAC30, 2x Scan Speak Discovery 26W on a Hypex FA123.
A bit oversized for 11m², but works surprisingly good.
Further i have some small fun speakers here, the Edelstoff:
But most of the time they live stored up on a cupboard in my home office...
I also still have some unused Scan Speak Illuminator neo tweeters and Revelator midranges on the shelf:
I had planned to build a little 3-way speaker with them on a journey back to my roots, but further thoughts led me to the question where to put all the speakers, and that some modular system might fit my needs better.
I made several simulations and CAD construction for a new woofer base module for the living room setup, last status was the desired drivers for the setup are 2x Revelator Alu 22W or 26W in CB.
All the time I have let the "Scandinavian Connections" out of the equation; I build the enclosures in 2015 and changed drivers a few times, retrofitted the Hypex module, rebuild the internal midrange enclosure. 2019 I won the German IGDH DIY contest with them. So until lastly I wanted to keep them in my home office as they have some history.
But I have made now the final decision to save the large expense on the revelator woofers, and to completely reshuffle the cards with all drivers and modules I already own. The Schnuckelchens and the Scandinavian Connections are going to get completely disassembled and enclosures are to be build all new to achieve an architecture that fits better to my needs and possibilities.
This should give an idea of the basic concept I want to have:
A woofer base module with the 2x Scan Disco 26W and FA503 for the living room, another with the single WO24P and FA123 for my home office. And different tops with different taste of sound that can be interchanged.
I'm really keen on the Bliesma mid dome, so I have it fixed on the roadmap for a ultra clear variant together with the T25A I already own. Will focus to build up the dry, smooth and clear tops first as it will take some more time that I also have saved the additional budged for the M74A. Will store the T25A until then, and might build the needed top enclosure together with the other parts in advance.
As replacement for the partner of the Kartesian mid I've chosen the Audax T025A20 with magnesium dome that is regularly available via TLHP france for overall ~250.-€ a pair (that actually cries for a PHL woofer to make the french team complete, LOL...)
The fresh and crisp variants are not decided yet but shall show what else to try I have in my mind, and drive the platform concept; I'm still working on the decision if every mid/tweeter combination shall get its own cabinet, or if few top cabinets with exchangeable front baffles are the better solution, or something between speciffically on the driver combinations. All has pros and cons.
As I'm not more stucked what to build next, the further plan is to make a final design for 2x woofer bases and 4x tasty top combinations incl. all simulations and sizing, detailed BOM and all CAD during this winter, so until march or so that I can build, measure and tune the setups during spring/summer next year. Will post some outcome for review here from time to time.
Best regards
Peter
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Some thoughts on the modularization of mid/tweeter top parts:
Currently I think that it will be the best way to build up separate own enclosures for the smooth and dry variant. The ultra clear variation with the Bliesma mid dome will get just an own thick baffle. The third pair of enclosures will get then a modular / exchangeable baffle, with an initial setup of the clear driver combination. Then I have 3 fixed setups to compare/use for the two woofer bases, and an additional modular one for testing also new driver combinations. Well, I have used and heared the SB15 Alu + Seas Alu dome extensively over the last years, still own the Edelstoff and have the ultra clear Bliesma setup, so I won't miss the clear variant not that much when the enclosure is needed for testing other combinations. I may decide then later if a new tested variant is so good that it gets its own dedicated box. I will also see that later baffle modifications of the dedicated smooth and dry tops is not impossible, e.g. that when after 3 years I might not more like the smooth setup, but very like the just tested crip setup I may rebuild the formerly "smooth" baffle...
Best regards
Peter
Currently I think that it will be the best way to build up separate own enclosures for the smooth and dry variant. The ultra clear variation with the Bliesma mid dome will get just an own thick baffle. The third pair of enclosures will get then a modular / exchangeable baffle, with an initial setup of the clear driver combination. Then I have 3 fixed setups to compare/use for the two woofer bases, and an additional modular one for testing also new driver combinations. Well, I have used and heared the SB15 Alu + Seas Alu dome extensively over the last years, still own the Edelstoff and have the ultra clear Bliesma setup, so I won't miss the clear variant not that much when the enclosure is needed for testing other combinations. I may decide then later if a new tested variant is so good that it gets its own dedicated box. I will also see that later baffle modifications of the dedicated smooth and dry tops is not impossible, e.g. that when after 3 years I might not more like the smooth setup, but very like the just tested crip setup I may rebuild the formerly "smooth" baffle...
Best regards
Peter
Curious to have your feedback between the said smooth AlMg from Audax and the Bliesma.
To follow your last past temptation reborn around the Revelator (the other thread), I would pursue that feeling... 😊
* with smooth in mind for someething different. No metal drivers...
Often I would like to cop to the mono sound of my TV that I found quite natural, of course no highs or bass, butthe equilibrium is so good that stereo with no full soundstage has no sense VS a good source point like that that spread the room with a different spatiousness feeling....
To follow your last past temptation reborn around the Revelator (the other thread), I would pursue that feeling... 😊
* with smooth in mind for someething different. No metal drivers...
Often I would like to cop to the mono sound of my TV that I found quite natural, of course no highs or bass, butthe equilibrium is so good that stereo with no full soundstage has no sense VS a good source point like that that spread the room with a different spatiousness feeling....
I like it!
I like modular platforms for being less heavy, more upgradeable top... My next will probably be a trio of 8" woofers in sealed enclosure. Or a quad in dipole:
😍
Have you also considered a "skinny base" ?
My "fat base" is 35cm wide and holds two 12" woofers CB in 120L. Designed with complete passive XO in mind- over 110dB in 4 pi per speaker from 50-100Hz- the SPL completely over the top:
I like modular platforms for being less heavy, more upgradeable top... My next will probably be a trio of 8" woofers in sealed enclosure. Or a quad in dipole:
😍
Have you also considered a "skinny base" ?
My "fat base" is 35cm wide and holds two 12" woofers CB in 120L. Designed with complete passive XO in mind- over 110dB in 4 pi per speaker from 50-100Hz- the SPL completely over the top:
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@diyiggy Yes I'm also curious. I very like the T25A because it plays very neutral and open, also very good match with the Kartesian mid. Few years ago I got the T25A for 99,- each, now it's 170-180 you pay. I searched for other hard dome tweeters with flawless FR, low moving mass and strong motor that must not be made of Beryllium or Textreme and do not cost a fortune, so I found the Audax one at TLHP.fr. It's available in several flavors with their egg-shaped silk dome, titanium dome and the magnesium dome.
With the TV sound I perceive the opposite - my main stereo is connected to the TV in the living room, and I cannot more listen to build-in TV speakers as they usually sound so bad in comparison. I do not understand how people can live with just their TV speakers without good speakers connected or at least a good soundbar....
@tktran303 : That looks good, my fatty will become significantly smaller than your fatty - no skinny version planned, with the tiny base all my possible places in the apartment are occupied and all woofers I have are re-used...
This is 2x26W with bucking magnets (set Pmax to 150W and Xmax to 9mm) in 60l CB with 32cm x 70 cm baffle, 1,5mH Coil in series and Linkwitz EQ f=30Hz Q=0,75 applied:
This is 1xWO24P-4 with bucking magnets (set Pmax to 125W of the Hypex module and Xmax to 10mm) in 45l vented tuned to 30Hz with 28cm x 65 cm wide baffle and 1,5mH Coil in series:
Best regards
Peter
With the TV sound I perceive the opposite - my main stereo is connected to the TV in the living room, and I cannot more listen to build-in TV speakers as they usually sound so bad in comparison. I do not understand how people can live with just their TV speakers without good speakers connected or at least a good soundbar....
@tktran303 : That looks good, my fatty will become significantly smaller than your fatty - no skinny version planned, with the tiny base all my possible places in the apartment are occupied and all woofers I have are re-used...
This is 2x26W with bucking magnets (set Pmax to 150W and Xmax to 9mm) in 60l CB with 32cm x 70 cm baffle, 1,5mH Coil in series and Linkwitz EQ f=30Hz Q=0,75 applied:
This is 1xWO24P-4 with bucking magnets (set Pmax to 125W of the Hypex module and Xmax to 10mm) in 45l vented tuned to 30Hz with 28cm x 65 cm wide baffle and 1,5mH Coil in series:
Best regards
Peter
My front wall is particular. I have a one meter width dart wall that was a fireroom place and the TV in a low furniture there at 40 cm of the front dart.
Then at each side of the dart wall, the real wall is so splitted in two niches, L & R.
I think there is something here that profits to the TV that fires to the rear sides toward the dart wall then speads on the niches.
The loudspeakers are in front of those niches but farer from the front dart wall. The fireroom front dart wall as I call it, is a plus of 32 cm (for the fire place-closed here) in front of the main concrete wall which is so, splitted in two niches at each side of that central dart. Total width of the room : 5 meters.
The TV is a mid level LG, I tuned the sound with the embeded controls. Many people trained to the sound or not are finding the TV sounds very fine w/o I ask on the subject. For sure a room layout thing ! Room is full of true parquet on sand, wood classic furnitures, orient carpets, very classic wood furnitures and difusor everywhere (lamps, paintings on wall, ceramics on the firnitures as high as 2.7 m, etc. The extra terristrial in the room is the hifi that is really dominated by the external layout, lol ! You imagine having a full sound stero well equilibred is a nightmare there ! But I can hear a simple resitor change or wire in the crossover... A nigthmare ! I purchase an headphone for christmass (I joke of course, no cans, but Fostex maybe).
Also the recess treble extension makes me think to try a tweeter I have, the cheap BC25TG from peereless ex Vifa. As well as my hyibrid 22 TAF/G ! But the 25 has just a so cool off axis pattern ! (that can be odd as one of the music I like most is Jazz, so brass needs Al tweeters (much better than Be here).
But I am in for a relaxed loudspeaker à la Kef 104/2 with good soundstage ! A keeper in my book own tastes.
I must purchase an Wavecor AW30 horned tweeter too, imo ! Cause those WG third party needs some cares I can't rule.
Then at each side of the dart wall, the real wall is so splitted in two niches, L & R.
I think there is something here that profits to the TV that fires to the rear sides toward the dart wall then speads on the niches.
The loudspeakers are in front of those niches but farer from the front dart wall. The fireroom front dart wall as I call it, is a plus of 32 cm (for the fire place-closed here) in front of the main concrete wall which is so, splitted in two niches at each side of that central dart. Total width of the room : 5 meters.
The TV is a mid level LG, I tuned the sound with the embeded controls. Many people trained to the sound or not are finding the TV sounds very fine w/o I ask on the subject. For sure a room layout thing ! Room is full of true parquet on sand, wood classic furnitures, orient carpets, very classic wood furnitures and difusor everywhere (lamps, paintings on wall, ceramics on the firnitures as high as 2.7 m, etc. The extra terristrial in the room is the hifi that is really dominated by the external layout, lol ! You imagine having a full sound stero well equilibred is a nightmare there ! But I can hear a simple resitor change or wire in the crossover... A nigthmare ! I purchase an headphone for christmass (I joke of course, no cans, but Fostex maybe).
Also the recess treble extension makes me think to try a tweeter I have, the cheap BC25TG from peereless ex Vifa. As well as my hyibrid 22 TAF/G ! But the 25 has just a so cool off axis pattern ! (that can be odd as one of the music I like most is Jazz, so brass needs Al tweeters (much better than Be here).
But I am in for a relaxed loudspeaker à la Kef 104/2 with good soundstage ! A keeper in my book own tastes.
I must purchase an Wavecor AW30 horned tweeter too, imo ! Cause those WG third party needs some cares I can't rule.
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If you like AL tweeters (like me) Bliesma T25A seems to be best at least I could find some. Audax Mg or Ti dome seem to behave very similar (and good) as Seas AL domes, and i like the very strong nearly saturated neo motor, read somewhat about 1,8 Tesla. Sica LP90.28/N92TW is also nice 1,8 Tesla but soft dome.
BTW talking about Sica, there is something coming:
https://www.costruirehifi.net/7716/...ver-hifi-dallesperienza-di-sica-altoparlanti/
https://rsspeakers.it/wp-content/uploads/2024/08/ZH02800-8.pdf
https://rsspeakers.it/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/ZH08000-8.pdf
(tweeter is first driver that utilizes silver instead of copper for pole cap that I know beside the Borresen drivers that are not available to DIY)
Here is some distortion plot of the "Scandinavian Connection" with the Seas 27TAC/GB, also a very nice AL tweeter:
Just a hip shot on original location of the right speaker in my home office from ~0,5m distance between mid and tweeter, so SPL@1m is ~6dB less then shown. There is room influence especially at 120Hz and 50Hz. Note the low THD >k2 from 2kHz up, and the low THD also <200 and <100Hz. I would not hesitate to fit a M74A in between instead of the SB15NBAC.
As I have just a new mic i will do some more distortion measurements on the drivers and speakers I have for project preparation during this winter. I'm especially interested to analyze distortion reducing effects by passive networks e.g. notches or coils and resistors in series of mid and tweeter for suppressing and shaping distortion FR, and coils in series of the woofers for the same purpose. I did some of that measures before, but was not able to see much in the noisefloor because my old mic was bad at that.
Best regards
Peter
BTW talking about Sica, there is something coming:
https://www.costruirehifi.net/7716/...ver-hifi-dallesperienza-di-sica-altoparlanti/
https://rsspeakers.it/wp-content/uploads/2024/08/ZH02800-8.pdf
https://rsspeakers.it/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/ZH08000-8.pdf
(tweeter is first driver that utilizes silver instead of copper for pole cap that I know beside the Borresen drivers that are not available to DIY)
Here is some distortion plot of the "Scandinavian Connection" with the Seas 27TAC/GB, also a very nice AL tweeter:
Just a hip shot on original location of the right speaker in my home office from ~0,5m distance between mid and tweeter, so SPL@1m is ~6dB less then shown. There is room influence especially at 120Hz and 50Hz. Note the low THD >k2 from 2kHz up, and the low THD also <200 and <100Hz. I would not hesitate to fit a M74A in between instead of the SB15NBAC.
As I have just a new mic i will do some more distortion measurements on the drivers and speakers I have for project preparation during this winter. I'm especially interested to analyze distortion reducing effects by passive networks e.g. notches or coils and resistors in series of mid and tweeter for suppressing and shaping distortion FR, and coils in series of the woofers for the same purpose. I did some of that measures before, but was not able to see much in the noisefloor because my old mic was bad at that.
Best regards
Peter
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1st Baseline for FattyBase Design:
Best regards
Peter
Best regards
Peter
Peter, did you think to sided bass drivers with the ScanSpeak for bass vibration cancelation ? Usefull for the ribbon ligther diaphragm like the AUrum Cantus for instance, or less large box design (but deeper) ?
Hi, no I do not consider sidebass because I want to provide clean bandwidth up to 500-600Hz LR4, so both woofers were put close on the front baffle.
Internal net volume after subtracting brackets, driver, amp chamber etc. volumes is 56 liters (CB). Both cuts in the vertical mid panel to the little volumes next and above the amp are sized so, that the volumes have a Helmholz resonance that is equal to the standing half wave resonance in the enclosure height direction (budgeting with the help of formulas from the Hobby Hifi magazine, author Bernd Timmermanns validated them with measurements multiple times). Well the use of such resonator is limited in a closed box as you can stuff it nicely in the middle. I also started not intentionally with the need to have such, but if you can just adjust the area of the anyhow demanded cutout a bit to some optimum, and so perhaps achieve a bit improvement, why not...
Internal net volume after subtracting brackets, driver, amp chamber etc. volumes is 56 liters (CB). Both cuts in the vertical mid panel to the little volumes next and above the amp are sized so, that the volumes have a Helmholz resonance that is equal to the standing half wave resonance in the enclosure height direction (budgeting with the help of formulas from the Hobby Hifi magazine, author Bernd Timmermanns validated them with measurements multiple times). Well the use of such resonator is limited in a closed box as you can stuff it nicely in the middle. I also started not intentionally with the need to have such, but if you can just adjust the area of the anyhow demanded cutout a bit to some optimum, and so perhaps achieve a bit improvement, why not...
Have you considered the Purifi tweeter? Personally, I wouldn't venture down such an ambitious road without at least enquiring about it.
Purify tweeter? No, have not considered this.
Have enough good tweeters here now to build some nice speakers, and may have other tweeters in mind that I find more exciting for my taste and preferred speaker design patterns.
Audax TW25A20Mg arrived few time ago. Nicely made driver, hopefully gives a fiery french team with the Kartesian Mid120_vHE - from the build style and parameters they should match well:
Best regards
Peter
Have enough good tweeters here now to build some nice speakers, and may have other tweeters in mind that I find more exciting for my taste and preferred speaker design patterns.
Audax TW25A20Mg arrived few time ago. Nicely made driver, hopefully gives a fiery french team with the Kartesian Mid120_vHE - from the build style and parameters they should match well:
Best regards
Peter
1st Baseline for CLEAR design:
Yep this is an interpretation of the ASR Directiva r2 cardioid concept for the SB15NBAC30-4. Have decided to go for the DXT I also have here instead of the TAC/GB. Front baffle design oriented on Heissmann Acoustics DXT mon. Still not decided on the exact baffle shape...
Best regards
Peter
Yep this is an interpretation of the ASR Directiva r2 cardioid concept for the SB15NBAC30-4. Have decided to go for the DXT I also have here instead of the TAC/GB. Front baffle design oriented on Heissmann Acoustics DXT mon. Still not decided on the exact baffle shape...
Best regards
Peter
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Are you not concerned about the diffraction caused by the width distance between the cabinets? Why not consider making the sides of the upper cabinet sloped so that it's bottom width matches the bass cabinet? After all, you are concerned enough about diffraction to bevel the upper cabinet near the tweeter. Just a thought ....
Hi, thanks for your feedback. If the top speaker would be of usual design I would give your objection a serious chance. But the top is designed with the slots on the side so it will give cardiod radiation pattern down to 200-250Hz, and it achieves more/better beaming in the fundamentals than I would get with a wider baffle and closed box.
The slot design is taken from shared design by @ctrl in the ASR forums:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-project-market-requirements-gathering.27212/
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...s/directiva-r2-monitor-prototype-build.30132/
I'm just a copycat here without own FEA simulations, but I use the combination SB15NBAC + Seas DXT since long time and think the cardioid slot design might be the best utilization of these drivers 1) if used with a separate woofer in a 3-way 2) when the mid-hi unit can stand separately on the woofer enclosure. So I decided to take the concept over here to get the best out of my implementation. Otherwise I had just taken my Edelstoff and put them on the woofer base.
The slot design is taken from shared design by @ctrl in the ASR forums:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-project-market-requirements-gathering.27212/
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...s/directiva-r2-monitor-prototype-build.30132/
I'm just a copycat here without own FEA simulations, but I use the combination SB15NBAC + Seas DXT since long time and think the cardioid slot design might be the best utilization of these drivers 1) if used with a separate woofer in a 3-way 2) when the mid-hi unit can stand separately on the woofer enclosure. So I decided to take the concept over here to get the best out of my implementation. Otherwise I had just taken my Edelstoff and put them on the woofer base.
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