Hi Thanks for reading What do you think is a fair price to pay for a quality drive unit before it gets into the territory of rapidly diminshing returns.
Recently I had to chance to audition a load of speaker cables. The most expensive was van den hul at £50 a meter which sounded no better / revealing / detailed than my current cable which is van damme at £7 a metre. Van den hul has been selling for years worldwide, what are these people paying all this money for
With drive units, some people post that they purchased a visaton drive unit for £100 and it sounded fantastic, others post they purchased seas excel for £700 and it sounded brilliant.
At what point does it get to when a drive unit is well made enough that it can give good performance and spending a ton of money more would give little benefits
Recently I had to chance to audition a load of speaker cables. The most expensive was van den hul at £50 a meter which sounded no better / revealing / detailed than my current cable which is van damme at £7 a metre. Van den hul has been selling for years worldwide, what are these people paying all this money for
With drive units, some people post that they purchased a visaton drive unit for £100 and it sounded fantastic, others post they purchased seas excel for £700 and it sounded brilliant.
At what point does it get to when a drive unit is well made enough that it can give good performance and spending a ton of money more would give little benefits
By your reckoning, £7 mtr for speaker cable and £100 for drive units.
Leave it at that. Others will not believe you can get high quality wire for £7mtr, while I personally think £7 is a lot to spend on wire.
This will just unfold into an argument.
Hth
Rik..
i did a search before purchase and the van damme cable is popular, couldn't find anything negative about it
There are good units for far less than £100 and mediocre ones for far over that kind of money. That would be the technical pov.
But since the audio business isn’t only about ‘technically good’, your question, isolated as is, does not make that much sense. Define what is important for you, and someone here might come up with better advice.
But since the audio business isn’t only about ‘technically good’, your question, isolated as is, does not make that much sense. Define what is important for you, and someone here might come up with better advice.
I have heard vibrato on high piano notes with 6 m of 16 ga zip cord. 1.3 mm diameter. OTOH 4 m of 10 ga (2.6 mm) 2SO cord had no vibrato. The latter is extra flexible with 400 strands copper, and costs $54 for 3.3 m. About $16 per m or L12. I see no reason to buy special "audio" speaker cable costing more than that.
Drivers, the best commercial speaker sold in this tiny city of 2000000 has a woofer (1508-KADT) costing about $250 and a compression driver (RX22) costing about $150. The Peavey SP2(2004) new was about $600. Second and 3rd harmonic distortion were specified at 25 db down 60-12 khz. I see no reason to pay more than that.
Caveat, my hearing stops at 14 khz. If yours is perfect you may want response above 17.5 khz.
Drivers, the best commercial speaker sold in this tiny city of 2000000 has a woofer (1508-KADT) costing about $250 and a compression driver (RX22) costing about $150. The Peavey SP2(2004) new was about $600. Second and 3rd harmonic distortion were specified at 25 db down 60-12 khz. I see no reason to pay more than that.
Caveat, my hearing stops at 14 khz. If yours is perfect you may want response above 17.5 khz.
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The law of diminishing returns applies to just about any product whether it's: speaker drivers, wine, cars or cooking utensils. Value for money and long-term satisfaction are also important.
Marketing (in some cases, BS) , supply and demand and image also come into the picture, with price sometimes being no guide to build, product quality or longevity.
I have SB Acoustics pfc drivers which seem to be very well made, sound good and cost A$50. Would I pay $500 for a Scan Speak driver of the same size? No. My Peerless SDS drivers have cheap looking stamped frames but still sound good and they cost even less than the SBs. Would I pay double for Peerless HDS drivers with more solid build quality? Yes.
The most expensive drivers I have are Morel CAT378 tweeters and Dayton RS180P woofers: the Daytons are very well made, look expensive and sound great.
The Morels also sound great and build quality is OK, but not five times better than my Vifa BC25s. However, the Morel's build quality is much better than my Dayton DC28s, which have cheap plastic frames plus a sticky dome which attracts fluff, insects and dust and is a pain to try and keep clean. Sound is good.
Geoff
Marketing (in some cases, BS) , supply and demand and image also come into the picture, with price sometimes being no guide to build, product quality or longevity.
I have SB Acoustics pfc drivers which seem to be very well made, sound good and cost A$50. Would I pay $500 for a Scan Speak driver of the same size? No. My Peerless SDS drivers have cheap looking stamped frames but still sound good and they cost even less than the SBs. Would I pay double for Peerless HDS drivers with more solid build quality? Yes.
The most expensive drivers I have are Morel CAT378 tweeters and Dayton RS180P woofers: the Daytons are very well made, look expensive and sound great.
The Morels also sound great and build quality is OK, but not five times better than my Vifa BC25s. However, the Morel's build quality is much better than my Dayton DC28s, which have cheap plastic frames plus a sticky dome which attracts fluff, insects and dust and is a pain to try and keep clean. Sound is good.
Geoff
What would you say is a good unit for approximatly £200, 6-8" in size, 4 ohm nominal impedance, power about 100 watts rms. Crossover frequency 1500hz second order filter
I'm thinking about the visaton gf-200 at £150, but can't find much information about it.
I've heard the seas w22ex001 and they sound good, a little pricey.
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for cable, as long as it's multistranded OFC of the right gauge, it does not matter. I buy 1.5mm stranded OFC cables on spools for about 1.5€/m and use neutrik or QED (for banana) connectors and make them myself. If you can solder a crossover, you can solder cables for sure and if you want, you can make them even look like fancy cords for a fraction of the price and with little tools.
For speaker drivers, it depends on what you're after. But you can get top level dome tweeters for 50€ and small top woofer for under 200. But a big high sensitive 18" subwoofer will still cost at least a few hundreds, and idem with top level compression drivers. But you don't necesairly need those for a high quality speaker, the implementation is way more important than if the driver is top level. Many speakers with very expensive drivers still sound like sh*t because the skills of the designer were also sh*t or the marketing department did the design, not an engineer (or equal skilled amateur).
A perfect example of very cheap drivers resulting in a quiet good speaker are the Overnight Sensation and C-Note kits sold by Parts Express and a few other shops in the world. Those are very cheap, but the speaker that is the result of those kits is a great little speaker, a bargain for it's price because both designers knew what they were doing when designing those.
Edit: to answer your question, look at the SB23 line, the SB23NBAC45-4 or the SB23NRXS45-4, both are way better than that visaton i think and cost about 125€ down here. If you google those, you will also find a lot more info as these are popular in the diy world.
For speaker drivers, it depends on what you're after. But you can get top level dome tweeters for 50€ and small top woofer for under 200. But a big high sensitive 18" subwoofer will still cost at least a few hundreds, and idem with top level compression drivers. But you don't necesairly need those for a high quality speaker, the implementation is way more important than if the driver is top level. Many speakers with very expensive drivers still sound like sh*t because the skills of the designer were also sh*t or the marketing department did the design, not an engineer (or equal skilled amateur).
A perfect example of very cheap drivers resulting in a quiet good speaker are the Overnight Sensation and C-Note kits sold by Parts Express and a few other shops in the world. Those are very cheap, but the speaker that is the result of those kits is a great little speaker, a bargain for it's price because both designers knew what they were doing when designing those.
Edit: to answer your question, look at the SB23 line, the SB23NBAC45-4 or the SB23NRXS45-4, both are way better than that visaton i think and cost about 125€ down here. If you google those, you will also find a lot more info as these are popular in the diy world.
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I wouldn’t look at a spending cap of drivers…..I’d instead look at the measured performance and the intended use. There are some performance limiting materials with an associated cost though.
For woofers, cast frames will cost more than plastic or stamped steel…….and in the performance category it typically results in less resonance from the frame……i don’t find this factor to be a negotiable to save $$$….
Driver size goes to use case………larger drivers will cost more than smaller siblings of the same series……if you NEED the larger driver to meet your frequency extension or expected power handling, spend the money
Tweeter material and Beryllium…….this is a BIG one…………most folks who’ve used or heard a Beryllium driver can’t go back regardless of the cost savings…….there’s just too many personal accounts of this for me to discredit so I won’t. I’m a ribbon guy so the buck stops there for me.
Midrange drivers in three ways……….this is where the bread gets buttered and nearly all of the fundamental performance within a frequency passband lives. It’s got to play relatively loud without distortion and it has to have a response of +/- 2b within its passband or otherwise, you’ll notice it. It shouldn’t have any resonance either and a clean spectral decay. These qualities do cost to engineer and implement so if it’s a 3 way, spend where it counts.
Most important?….have a design and plan! Spending top $$$ on drivers doesn’t even hint at success. The recent reviews of the Borresen X3 which uses very expensive Textreme midwoofers is a prime example…….avoid eye candy unless you can afford it.
For woofers, cast frames will cost more than plastic or stamped steel…….and in the performance category it typically results in less resonance from the frame……i don’t find this factor to be a negotiable to save $$$….
Driver size goes to use case………larger drivers will cost more than smaller siblings of the same series……if you NEED the larger driver to meet your frequency extension or expected power handling, spend the money
Tweeter material and Beryllium…….this is a BIG one…………most folks who’ve used or heard a Beryllium driver can’t go back regardless of the cost savings…….there’s just too many personal accounts of this for me to discredit so I won’t. I’m a ribbon guy so the buck stops there for me.
Midrange drivers in three ways……….this is where the bread gets buttered and nearly all of the fundamental performance within a frequency passband lives. It’s got to play relatively loud without distortion and it has to have a response of +/- 2b within its passband or otherwise, you’ll notice it. It shouldn’t have any resonance either and a clean spectral decay. These qualities do cost to engineer and implement so if it’s a 3 way, spend where it counts.
Most important?….have a design and plan! Spending top $$$ on drivers doesn’t even hint at success. The recent reviews of the Borresen X3 which uses very expensive Textreme midwoofers is a prime example…….avoid eye candy unless you can afford it.
To a certain extent the price is a number that balances manufacturing/operation costs against what they project the market will bare. It became fashionable to market higher end drivers at $350 during the 2000’s and now we’re seeing north of $1000 each. While the newer ones do appear to perform excellent in several important areas, I believe the customer base is being taken for a ride.
Manufacturing is the most affordable it has ever been in history. Never have designers had the range of materials and rapid prototyping tools that we have now. Most of the technology has long been worked out, so it isn’t as groundbreaking as the glossy websites claim. Machines are automatic and have become more precise and faster than humans that once manned those jobs. Instead of paying 120-people annual wages, a handful of people design or contract out the design, then load, maintain and setup machines. But for every dollar saved with the new machinery, processor power, simulations and cheap offshore labor, the customer rarely saw prices come down.
I work with manufacturers and it’s remarkable how much the prices differ when service suppliers aren’t deploying mental gymnastics to quadruple costs. I also have my own prototype work done by a few companies who don’t overcharge and it puts the topic of markup into perspective.
The audio and automotive sectors stand as great examples where technologies are throttled to push discerning buyers upwards in their carefully tiered price structure.
Manufacturing is the most affordable it has ever been in history. Never have designers had the range of materials and rapid prototyping tools that we have now. Most of the technology has long been worked out, so it isn’t as groundbreaking as the glossy websites claim. Machines are automatic and have become more precise and faster than humans that once manned those jobs. Instead of paying 120-people annual wages, a handful of people design or contract out the design, then load, maintain and setup machines. But for every dollar saved with the new machinery, processor power, simulations and cheap offshore labor, the customer rarely saw prices come down.
I work with manufacturers and it’s remarkable how much the prices differ when service suppliers aren’t deploying mental gymnastics to quadruple costs. I also have my own prototype work done by a few companies who don’t overcharge and it puts the topic of markup into perspective.
The audio and automotive sectors stand as great examples where technologies are throttled to push discerning buyers upwards in their carefully tiered price structure.
No, because a basic good design is not rocketscience. But you need to study the subject a bit to get there. But there are many good diy speakers arround, and some of them became top contenders in commercial market also (like Dutch & Dutch or Barefoot). And it's not that all speakers need to be as neutral as possible, but if you deviate from that, know how and why (also based on science).
It's just like an other technical hobby or diy project, study the subject before you do something so you do it right.
Not really, but it depends on what you want from your effort.
Even for a two way, once the wood and Xover components are factored on its easy to have spent 400.
A small artisan commercial loudspeaker company would have to charge 1200-1500 to make some profit for a similar design using your chosen good quality drivers.
I assume they would probably buy in bulk ideally in 100's to get extra savings direct from the driver manufacturer. When you look at some internal shots of commercial loudspeakers with the drivers removed there are several instances where you can see cheaper plastic framed woofers and tweeters with small Neo type magnets, these are used for a reason to help keep costs within target and hence meet profit margins.
Some manufacturers are spending a bit more time on dual layer cabinets construction, resonance damping, and bracing, which can improve the overall quality, without having to buy a better driver.
Assuming you did limit yourself to approx 100 for the bass - mid and 60 for the tweeter, and 150 for a mid range, if you wanted a three way.
For starters take a week to decide on suitable choices for your candidate drivers, verify that they haven't gone end of life from suppliers.
Another couple of weeks to model the cabinet and driver interactions in Vituixcad to get a basic feel for how they could behave and make you first design.
Buy the speakers, allow another week for delivery, also buy and cut wood and assemble first cabinet.
Fit drivers and make measurements on reference axis and at various angles 30, 45,60, 90 to enable you to have a feel for the power response, better still do 18 measurements plus /minus 90 degrees in both azimuth and elevation.
Two weeks to a month for tweaking and that's it a hopefully very nice set of speakers. Plus another two weeks to finish or veneer, and build the other cabinet if you haven't already done so.
Hopefully, you like the several other responders to the question will have enjoyed the whole experience and still be on talking terms with other members of your family.
As a final note, and as mentioned here over the years, a 50 bass-mid and 20 tweeter can be made to sing up to a certain volume level 95dB ish , and with nothing much below 100Hz .
Even for a two way, once the wood and Xover components are factored on its easy to have spent 400.
A small artisan commercial loudspeaker company would have to charge 1200-1500 to make some profit for a similar design using your chosen good quality drivers.
I assume they would probably buy in bulk ideally in 100's to get extra savings direct from the driver manufacturer. When you look at some internal shots of commercial loudspeakers with the drivers removed there are several instances where you can see cheaper plastic framed woofers and tweeters with small Neo type magnets, these are used for a reason to help keep costs within target and hence meet profit margins.
Some manufacturers are spending a bit more time on dual layer cabinets construction, resonance damping, and bracing, which can improve the overall quality, without having to buy a better driver.
Assuming you did limit yourself to approx 100 for the bass - mid and 60 for the tweeter, and 150 for a mid range, if you wanted a three way.
For starters take a week to decide on suitable choices for your candidate drivers, verify that they haven't gone end of life from suppliers.
Another couple of weeks to model the cabinet and driver interactions in Vituixcad to get a basic feel for how they could behave and make you first design.
Buy the speakers, allow another week for delivery, also buy and cut wood and assemble first cabinet.
Fit drivers and make measurements on reference axis and at various angles 30, 45,60, 90 to enable you to have a feel for the power response, better still do 18 measurements plus /minus 90 degrees in both azimuth and elevation.
Two weeks to a month for tweaking and that's it a hopefully very nice set of speakers. Plus another two weeks to finish or veneer, and build the other cabinet if you haven't already done so.
Hopefully, you like the several other responders to the question will have enjoyed the whole experience and still be on talking terms with other members of your family.
As a final note, and as mentioned here over the years, a 50 bass-mid and 20 tweeter can be made to sing up to a certain volume level 95dB ish , and with nothing much below 100Hz .
Most here would agree on the SB Satori 16 or 19cm. For the 2-way (?) you’re thinking of, Seas H1456 and H1571 (not nominally 8Ω) and Scan Speak 18W8434 are good. Among a lot of others.
On the whole I find pro drivers usually provide much more bang for the money than drivers aimed at diy.
The only possible drawback I found is that they don't usually go super low for a given size. An 8" prodriver will not get into the low 30s but they can do low 40s which I am ok with for that size. For example the Faital Pro 8RS350 has an Fs of 42Hz which I find quite reasonable. On the upside it's Vas is only 24L so makes for small cabs, features an aluminium demodulation ring, takes 300W in thermal power and a decent Xmax of 7.4mm for only £112.
It weighs 4.1kg. Also prodrivers usually want ported cabs.
For comparison the ScanSpeak 22W8534 costs about the same, has an Xmx of <3mm, 70W and a Vas of 94L but it has an Fs 0f 32Hz. It weighs 2.1kg.
Of the 2 I would pick the Faital but YMMV.
The only possible drawback I found is that they don't usually go super low for a given size. An 8" prodriver will not get into the low 30s but they can do low 40s which I am ok with for that size. For example the Faital Pro 8RS350 has an Fs of 42Hz which I find quite reasonable. On the upside it's Vas is only 24L so makes for small cabs, features an aluminium demodulation ring, takes 300W in thermal power and a decent Xmax of 7.4mm for only £112.
It weighs 4.1kg. Also prodrivers usually want ported cabs.
For comparison the ScanSpeak 22W8534 costs about the same, has an Xmx of <3mm, 70W and a Vas of 94L but it has an Fs 0f 32Hz. It weighs 2.1kg.
Of the 2 I would pick the Faital but YMMV.
It is (IMO) unsafe to assume the returns are related too closely to price. There are far too many other factors, like brand positioning, production volumes and market sector that influence price greatly and yet have little relation to various measures of quality. Not to mention 'boutique' items with big mark-ups. It took me a long time to realise and fully accept this. Also, as has been mentioned, a lot is related to how well you can integrate a given driver (with the speaker, other drivers, crossovers etc); just how it performs in isolation is not necessarily a good indicator of how a complete multiway speaker will work.
I would suggest looking at what you actually need from the drivers, what that means for their specifications, since they have many qualities and some of these might be more important ('better') for you than others. Then if possible trying to find independent tests and reviews of candidates that fit your requirements.
For instance, years ago I always used passive crossovers and wanted easy designs for these, so preferred drivers that had especially smooth and ideally extended response with helpful impedence characteristics, sometimes (though not always) that meant quite expensive Hifi drivers to get those specific characteristics. Now I mostly use active crossovers and software EQ, and am interested in different types of speakers so my requirements have changed; I need different things from the drivers. Increasingly I'm finding PA/professional drivers work quite well, which tend to have quite a different cost/performance relationship to hifi types. Different drivers for different situations, cost doesn't necessarily correlate at all; if I'd tried the PA drivers in my old designs though, or the hifi drivers in the new ones, the results would not be what was wanted.
I would suggest looking at what you actually need from the drivers, what that means for their specifications, since they have many qualities and some of these might be more important ('better') for you than others. Then if possible trying to find independent tests and reviews of candidates that fit your requirements.
For instance, years ago I always used passive crossovers and wanted easy designs for these, so preferred drivers that had especially smooth and ideally extended response with helpful impedence characteristics, sometimes (though not always) that meant quite expensive Hifi drivers to get those specific characteristics. Now I mostly use active crossovers and software EQ, and am interested in different types of speakers so my requirements have changed; I need different things from the drivers. Increasingly I'm finding PA/professional drivers work quite well, which tend to have quite a different cost/performance relationship to hifi types. Different drivers for different situations, cost doesn't necessarily correlate at all; if I'd tried the PA drivers in my old designs though, or the hifi drivers in the new ones, the results would not be what was wanted.
I mix them, and Faital (just like Beyma and B&C) are often a good choice for a project, also for hifi. But it really depends on the case. SB and Scanspeak are also sometimes the best choice, and not necesairly their most expensive drivers. My favorite dome tweeter (of all i heared) is the 55€ costing SB26ADC, not a driver that cost 10x or more this price (those exist also). I don't get the Berryllium or Textreme hype at all... And you certainly don't need one of those to make a good speaker.
I'm scared, It's beginning to sound very complicated.
Do you think home made speakers can sound as good as a pro manufacturer, they have the advantages of anechoic chambers all the test equipment
Also do you think any box designing software may be helpful, if so have you used any program paid or unpaid
Do you think home made speakers can sound as good as a pro manufacturer, they have the advantages of anechoic chambers all the test equipment
Also do you think any box designing software may be helpful, if so have you used any program paid or unpaid
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Well, DIY audio isn’t deadly as long as y’are careful with tools and mains power (or tubes). And it’s not that difficult to create marvellous results that keep up with factory stuff. Easier than ever actually.
But while it is for the faint of heart, it’s not something you learn in a day. So either build a good proven DIY design aka kit. Or get yourself ready to get immersed in the technology behind it all. Both ways aren’t necessarily very expensive and can lead to a happy ending.
I suggest making that choice early in the process. That brings the most certain outcome.
But while it is for the faint of heart, it’s not something you learn in a day. So either build a good proven DIY design aka kit. Or get yourself ready to get immersed in the technology behind it all. Both ways aren’t necessarily very expensive and can lead to a happy ending.
I suggest making that choice early in the process. That brings the most certain outcome.