So I have been arguing with AI on the pros/cons of switching from SMD electrolytic capacitors to SMD polymer on my computer PCIe USB card intended for audio and the benefits/drawbacks of each. It boils down to ripple current, but how much of a factor this plays considering the benefits of way better ESR and ripple from polymer - what is your take.
If we compare two caps:
Factoring this is a digital audio signal on a USB card, is leakage much of a concern or would be benefits of the polymer be evident translated to sound differences.
AI had two conflicting conclusions and wont commit to one or the other - it's worse than a politician!
quote #1: "Given the specific use case of a high-end USB audio card with digital audio signals, the Panasonic 16SVPG680M might still be the better choice for achieving better sound quality, despite the higher leakage current."
quote #2: "For high-end audio applications where sound quality is paramount, minimizing noise is crucial. Given the significantly higher leakage current of the Panasonic capacitor, it might be more prudent to stick with the Würth Elektronik 865060357010 or consider other capacitors with a better balance of low ESR, high ripple current, and low leakage current."
If we compare two caps:
Panasonic 16SVPG680M (Polymer)
- Capacitance: 680µF
- Voltage Rating: 16V
- ESR: 8mΩ
- Ripple Current: 6.5A
- Leakage Current: 2.176 mA
- Temperature Range: -55°C to 105°C
- Endurance: 5000 hours at 105°C
- Package Type: SMD/SMT
- Dimensions: Diameter 8mm, Length 11.9mm
Würth Elektronik 865060357010 (Aluminum Electrolytic)
- Capacitance: 680µF
- Voltage Rating: 16V
- Impedance: 90mΩ at 100kHz
- Ripple Current: 750mA
- Leakage Current: 108.8 µA
- Temperature Range: -55°C to 105°C
- Endurance: 5000 hours at 105°C
- Package Type: SMD/SMT
- Dimensions: Diameter 10mm, Length 10.3mm
Factoring this is a digital audio signal on a USB card, is leakage much of a concern or would be benefits of the polymer be evident translated to sound differences.
AI had two conflicting conclusions and wont commit to one or the other - it's worse than a politician!
quote #1: "Given the specific use case of a high-end USB audio card with digital audio signals, the Panasonic 16SVPG680M might still be the better choice for achieving better sound quality, despite the higher leakage current."
quote #2: "For high-end audio applications where sound quality is paramount, minimizing noise is crucial. Given the significantly higher leakage current of the Panasonic capacitor, it might be more prudent to stick with the Würth Elektronik 865060357010 or consider other capacitors with a better balance of low ESR, high ripple current, and low leakage current."
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I doubt that 680 microfarad capacitors are being used for anything except power supply smoothing ("bypass"). In power supply smoothing applications, 2.2 mA of leakage current is completely insignificant. Especially since this is a "USB card" which suggests AC mains power, not battery power. Electrolytic capacitor leakage won't drain the battery if there is no battery.
Thanks Mark, so you'd align with my thinking that the polymer would be optimal in comparison - now whether this would translate into any tangible sound benefit, that would be interesting.
AI flip flops again, it liked what you had to say:
"In power supply smoothing (bypass) applications, the primary role of the capacitor is to filter out noise and stabilize the power supply voltage. In such cases, the key factors are typically:
So, based on this context, the Panasonic 16SVPG680M remains a strong choice for achieving better sound quality in your high-end USB audio card."
AI flip flops again, it liked what you had to say:
"In power supply smoothing (bypass) applications, the primary role of the capacitor is to filter out noise and stabilize the power supply voltage. In such cases, the key factors are typically:
- Capacitance: Ensuring sufficient capacity to smooth out voltage fluctuations.
- ESR: Lower ESR helps in reducing power losses and improving efficiency.
- Ripple Current: Higher ripple current ratings ensure the capacitor can handle significant current fluctuations.
Leakage Current in Power Supply Smoothing
- Insignificance: In power supply smoothing applications, the leakage current of 2.2 mA is generally considered insignificant. The primary concern is to maintain a stable and clean power supply, and the leakage current at this level is unlikely to have a noticeable impact on the overall performance.
- Focus on ESR and Ripple Current: Given that the primary function is to smooth the power supply, the benefits of lower ESR and higher ripple current handling provided by the Panasonic 16SVPG680M would be more impactful in achieving better performance.
Conclusion
Given that the 680µF capacitors are likely being used for power supply smoothing in your high-end USB audio card, the higher leakage current of the Panasonic 16SVPG680M is not a significant concern. The advantages of lower ESR and higher ripple current handling are more relevant and beneficial for this application.So, based on this context, the Panasonic 16SVPG680M remains a strong choice for achieving better sound quality in your high-end USB audio card."
Are we - humans - supposed to enter a dispute with some instance of AI here?
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Please don't rely on AI for facts. The "information" scrubbed from the internet varies all over the map.
AI just chooses the more common relation, not the correct one. It has no understanding at all.
That is why humans must continue to have deep understanding, and not become ignorant, just relying on AI.
AI just chooses the more common relation, not the correct one. It has no understanding at all.
That is why humans must continue to have deep understanding, and not become ignorant, just relying on AI.
AI doesn't work well for this sort of question because it doesn't ask questions back. In particular, you can't choose between them without knowing exactly what they are used for. For instance, if this is at the output of a SMPS, it might have to handle high ripple current, where low ESR will help. If it's not, then low ESR may actually be harmful, as it won't be as good at damping resonances with nearby inductances.
As of yet, AI chatbotting actually has nothing to do with intelligence at all, rather it's one of the greatest misnomers of all times. Questions that would require actual intelligence to master are bound to fail by design.
Of course there is nothing wrong with still trying and see what happens, just for fun.
IMHO, stick with what the designer decided to be appropriate. Only when you have a schematic and clearly understand it (as well as the PCB layout) and have professional equipment to verify performance, then you might try things like this successfully.
Of course there is nothing wrong with still trying and see what happens, just for fun.
For sure, it’s a small investment generally speaking and an hour or so of having some fun adding what could be an ‘upgrade’ - just trying to wrap my mind around thoughts on any potential sound benefit. Lower ESR, higher ripple, on a computer usb pcie card intended for audio? For smoothing, maybe not a shred of difference, maybe something there …. Certainly wouldn’t harm much.
What I see about AI is pretty much the same as the internet, false information relayed several times becomes true.
The worst being Wikipedia and Google since it gradually abandoned its algorithm in favor of AI.
The worst being Wikipedia and Google since it gradually abandoned its algorithm in favor of AI.
Well for closure on this, I swapped out all 8 electrolytics for polymer - same brand, Wurth, to maintain the land size available. The ESR difference x 8 makes a difference. Whole thing sounds more accurate, maybe more detailed but tighter sounding while maintaining the great fidelity of the card.
Lesson learned for me - polymer for digital and power all the way.
Lesson learned for me - polymer for digital and power all the way.