Question on using drive rack on QSC powered speakers...

[Hooskerdu]

Hi folks,

I have some experience doing sound for our band from the stage, but I would still consider myself mostly novice in terms of knowledge on doing live sound....and wanted some advice on using a drive rack or sonic maximizer with powered speakers. We recently replaced our passive JBL high pacs and subs with the powered QSC K12s and the powered K Subs, which have 2 12" speakers in each sub.

We have a DBX drive rack PA and a BBE 362sw sonic maximizer that we used on the JBLs, and was wondering if we should use either of them, or are those QSC speakers good enough to use without either the drive rack or sonic maximizer? Will that drive rack PA even work with powered speakers, or would we have to get a drive rack that is designed specifically for powered speakers? I know sonic maximizers have a pretty bad reputation, but I thought it made our JBL MP415 and MP bass subs sound better than without it being turned on.

Also, we have a 2-channel 31-band DBX EQ that we would like to use on both the monitors and the main speakers. Is that possible to do with just the 2-channels, or would that force us to daisy-chain with both the mains and the monitors (also powered), with each using one channel of the DBX eq? Can we get by with just EQing the monitors, and allow the QSC speakers to go without EQing them?

I have also started working on "notching" instruments on our board to free up frequencies and clean up our sound. Is the 3-band EQ with sweepable mids that are on our mixer enough to reduce clutter in the high, mid, and low frequencies for instruments and voices? And if so, do you turn the non-essential frequencies completely off (example: Would you turn the mids and highs completely off when mic-ing the kick drum, or remove the mids completely and bring in a little of the highs to give the kick drum some 'snap' sound to it?) Where would you set the high, mid, and low knobs for the guitar and bass and voice? And where would you set the sweepable mids on each?

Also, is there a good book or manual that a person can buy that will help with all of our questions on running sound?

I know I'm asking a lot of questions, but I've heard good things about getting great info off these types of forums.Thanks for any advice you can provide. I appreciate your help. 🙂

Darren

 

[conanski]

That Driverack and BBE are now redundant so go ahead and put them in the classifieds, you cannot improve on the processing that is already builtin on those powered speakers.
The 31 band eq will be best used on the monitors, this is where you need the most sound shaping and ideally you want a separate EQ channel for each monitor or at least for each individual monitor feed.
There is a technique used in live sound production where you make space for each instrument by emphasizing a small frequency range and minimizing others, but you don't completely kill the other frequencies because all those harmonics are necessary to create a realistic sounding instrument. For example kick drum fundamental is in the 60-80hz range but the slap of the beater is up in the khz range and if you kill that completely the drum sound lifeless.You will find more discussions of topics like this on forums such as ProSoundWeb.

 

[KTOKTO]

Also, we have a 2-channel 31-band DBX EQ that we would like to use on both the monitors and the main speakers.

Why do you need it on you mains? Use the 31 band in the Drvierack. Just flatten with a measurement mic and call it good. save your settings so it's just plug and play the next time you play that venue.

Can we get by with just EQing the monitors, and allow the QSC speakers to go without EQing them?

You definitely need the 31 band on your monitors to notch out feedback, use one channel on your 31 band on that and save the other channel for your kick drum mic. Use the driverack on the mains. You will need to eq your mains unless you dont give a ****.

Is the 3-band EQ with sweepable mids that are on our mixer enough to reduce clutter in the high, mid, and low frequencies for instruments and voices?

Yes, once you have your system flattened using the driverack and measurement mic everything should work great.
[/quote]

As far as the kick drum, before we went with e-drums I ran the kick drum mic in to a the 2nd channel on our 31 band monitor eq. I then dropped all frequencies to the floor except around 50-100 and around 2000. It was a quick and dirty way to get a decent sound without feedback.

Also, is there a good book or manual that a person can buy that will help with all of our questions on running sound?

I know I'm asking a lot of questions, but I've heard good things about getting great info off these types of forums.Thanks for any advice you can provide. I appreciate your help. 🙂

Darren

There are more than enough videos on youtube to get you to a respectable local band level. Sorry I do not have time to post links now but search for some drverack videos on yourtube and learn how to properly use that.

You sound like you are in the exact same setup I was about 5 years ago.

That Driverack and BBE are now redundant so go ahead and put them in the classifieds, you cannot improve on the processing that is already builtin on those powered speakers.

I'm not sure about that statement. You need to tune your system different every time you play a different venue. The driverack's auto level, auto eq and auto feedback suppression are fantastic tools for anyone who isn't a full time pro.

I would throw the BBE away though. You shouldn't need much more than a measurement mic and driverack setup wizard to get a very respectable starting point.

 

[KTOKTO]

Hi folks,
I have also started working on "notching" instruments on our board to free up frequencies and clean up our sound. Is the 3-band EQ with sweepable mids that are on our mixer enough to reduce clutter in the high, mid, and low frequencies for instruments and voices? And if so, do you turn the non-essential frequencies completely off (example: Would you turn the mids and highs completely off when mic-ing the kick drum, or remove the mids completely and bring in a little of the highs to give the kick drum some 'snap' sound to it?) Where would you set the high, mid, and low knobs for the guitar and bass and voice? And where would you set the sweepable mids on each?
Darren

Seeing that you are messing with a sonic maximizer and having a lot of questions regarding eqing each instrument sounds like you have your system all out of whack to begin with. Get an behringer or dayton measurement mic, use the driverack to set your main/sub levels and use it to flatten your response with the setup wizard. You will be shocked at how much better it sounds compared to just guessing.

Your questions and equipment sound so similar to mine it is shocking. I guess upper midest tards think alike.

 

[KTOKTO]

Also, is there a good book or manual that a person can buy that will help with all of our questions on running sound?

I watched this guys videos when we were starting out and he gives a lot of solid information that rookies like us can understand.

https://www.youtube.com/user/brentsterpro/videos

I think I remember watching the Audio 101 videos and gain structure video. If I remember correctly they will be of help.

As far as reading, the sound reinforcement handbook is highly recommended.

https://www.amazon.com/Sound-Reinforcement-Handbook-Gary-Davis/dp/0881889008

 

[conanski]

You need to tune your system different every time you play a different venue.

Sorry I disagree, these speakers are flat as delivered and need no extra processing. If a particular room is boomy or bright that can be tamed pretty easily on the mixing console. I send out powered speakers systems on a weekly basis with no external processing besides what is available on the supplied analog mixing console in some cases and never get any complaints about bad sound quality.

The driverack's auto level, auto eq and auto feedback suppression are fantastic tools for anyone who isn't a full time pro.

Disagree again, these are booby traps for the ill informed and it's far more likely an inexperienced user will totally destroy their systems effectiveness utilizing these gimics. I'm a firm believer in less is more, balance the system with the provided level controls and learn to use proper mic selection and location to combat feedback.

 

[Enzo]

Sorry I disagree, these speakers are flat as delivered and need no extra processing. If a particular room is boomy or bright that can be tamed pretty easily on the mixing console.

Well, speakers may be flat, but rooms are not, that is why we have graphic EQs in sound systems, and they have to be tweaked for every venue. Unless you luck out and two venues have the same room acoustics. We tame them from the mixing console by adjusting the graphic.

 

[KTOKTO]

Sorry I disagree, these speakers are flat as delivered and need no extra processing. If a particular room is boomy or bright that can be tamed pretty easily on the mixing console. I send out powered speakers systems on a weekly basis with no external processing besides what is available on the supplied analog mixing console in some cases and never get any complaints about bad sound quality.

Is that recommenadtion for DJ or live use? I can't see a live act having much luck jumping from venue to venue without a graphic eq. I could see it working for a DJ who just wants to make some noise though.

My system is extremely flat with no processing and sounds great with no DSP out doors. Now, take the same system indoors at a small bar the next day and all hell would break loose without processing. One hit of the kick drum would send the place in to an earthquake feedback loop without notching.

Yes, you could get rid of that "boominess" on the kick drum eq on the board but that would kill "everything" to the point where you would have no kick drum at all. Same goes for the bass guitar and high frequencies.
[/quote]

Disagree again, these are booby traps for the ill informed and it's far more likely an inexperienced user will totally destroy their systems effectiveness utilizing these gimics. I'm a firm believer in less is more, balance the system with the provided level controls and learn to use proper mic selection and location to combat feedback.

Can I ask how many times you have used a driverack in a live sound environment and what your experiences were.

Here is mine. When we first started out I was using a 31 band eq, a bbe xover and a laptop with a measurement mic to tune the system. Each show we would slam pink noise in to the venue for a could minutes while I tweaked the xover and eq. Then we would play while I slowly increased the volume looking for feedback and then notched out anything bad on the eq. Then, during the show as we increased volume through the night I would sometimes need to run over to the eq to cut other frequencies.

Now with the driverack, I plug in a measurement mic, run a couple sweeps and the system is more than flat enough for a local act a few seconds later, then slowly turn up the mixer and let the drvierack notch out any offending frequencies. Then throughout the show as we increase volume and microphones move throughout the room the rolling live filters take care of any problems.

I can see the driverack being called a gimmick by a pro engineer working on a $50K system for an act getting paid thousands or tens of thousands a show, but for little local acts playing to small crowds for peanuts, the gimmicks will get an act sounding very respectable. Not everyone can afford to hire a pro to run sound at every show. For those who can't, the driverack's gimicks are well worth the price compared to a graphic eq, xover, and laptop with rta software.


Now, with the driverack evangelization aside 🙂 ... TLDR, I think you are leading OP down a bad path saying he doesn't need a graphic EQ for a live act.

 

[conanski]

Is that recommendation for DJ or live use? I can't see a live act having much luck jumping from venue to venue without a graphic eq. I could see it working for a DJ who just wants to make some noise though.

Live sound is more complicated with all those open mics but I'd rather use parametric EQ than graphic from system processing in either case. After going to powered speakers I removed all outboard EQ from my DJ rigs as I found it simply wasn't needed, and these are wedding DJs so there are always wandering mics in use but feedback is a rare occururence. When I do use powered speakers for a live sound event I have not had any big feedback issues, this used to be a big problem with any passive speakers I have used but once that system is processed flat this becomes less of a problem. I suppose if you need very high SPLs inside very live rooms then you are gonna need every tool at your disposal.

My system is extremely flat with no processing .

Passive or self powered?

Can I ask how many times you have used a driverack in a live sound environment and what your experiences were.

I don't own a DriveRack(have used them) but I do own a PA processor (DCX2496) and it gets used every time with my passive speaker system because it needs it, but that processor does not include a feedback eliminator or auto EQ and I have not seen a need for those features.
The trap with AutoEQ is that the end user has to understand how the system works and what it can and cannot fix. It can fix some speaker response anomalies and it can tame some room response issues, but so can simply moving or rearranging the speakers. The user has to understand that the mic measurement it is only "correct" for that mic position so by rights you need to make multiple sweeps at multiple positions around the room and average them out, I understand the latest versions can do this. The user has to understand that if the processor makes hugh boosts at any frequency that is most likely because those frequencies are being cancelled due to a room node or because the speakers simply can't reproduce them, and those boosts should be manually removed.
What you will find after all that is that a simple broad stroke bass or treble EQ adjustment produces pretty much the same end result, and 2 or 3 parametric EQ adjustments are far less detrimental to overall sound quality that 15 or 30 graphic EQ filters. So I guess I can't say I'm totally against system EQ but I'm a firm believer in less is more and newbies should learn as much as they can about acoustics and mic/speaker/room interaction and not blindly trust that electronics will fix everything.