Can it be done? Or is this merely a dream that I'll chase for years in vain? I'm of the opinion that anything is possible with hard work and dedication- but I definitely could see it being at the very least a daunting challenge. So, I'm talking really small. As of now, I am the only engineer. My sister will be working with me on logo and cabinet design, and my brother will be constructing and tolexing the head and speaker cabinets. I've done some preliminary numbers- and with some start up money in place I could have several units rolling out per week, generously speaking. Assuming I had that, and was at the point of selling- what are my odds of even selling more than half my inventory?? With brands like Marshall and Fender out there charging hundreds to thousands of dollars for their amps (which, admittedly, are some of the greatest amps in the world), my initial strategy would be to sell my stock at very low prices while advertising high-price tone, (true to reality, I hope!!!) but how would I realistically do this? I would have to make up for the price drop with an increase in items sold: easier said than done. Also, what are the boundaries regarding circuit copyright? Does taking an existing circuit and modifying it by 5 or more components constitute enfringement? Conversely, should I copyright any original circuits that I design? If anyone has been down this road, or close, or has general business starting advice, your comments and thoughts on this are graciously welcomed!!
Is your plan to sell directly, or through dealers?
If direct, you may want to offer sample product to a few bands, so your logo gets some recognition, even before you begin production.
I'd suggest you start with a working prototype. Show it around to musicians. Get feedback.
Once you get some orders, then you can work on financing and such. You need to have a product first.
If direct, you may want to offer sample product to a few bands, so your logo gets some recognition, even before you begin production.
I'd suggest you start with a working prototype. Show it around to musicians. Get feedback.
Once you get some orders, then you can work on financing and such. You need to have a product first.
The somewhat sad reality is it almost comes down to marketing more than having a good product. I know a guy who modded old PA amps and they sounded great. He tried to sell them on ebay and even gave a 14 day money back guarantee. If you don't like my amp, just pay shipping(usually around $25) and return it. Just for the heck of it, I bought one to see what his amps sounded like. Mine sounded super and with a 14 day trial, how can a buyer go wrong? The prices ran about $250 or so. He even offered different models, 18 watt, 33 watt, 50 watt, usually Bogens and Precision Electronics, Lafayette. I saw no other seller offering this 14 day trial. He has since stopped making them. I was watching a few and they didn't sell. A while later, he stopped making them; they didn't sell. Lesson learned- even a good product won't sell unless you somehow get your amp out there and your name recognized. He had a brand but I don't want to tell it, not my place to do so.
I sold an amp to a guy who owned his own marketing/consulting firm and I asked this very question. He said the same thing, marketing. Along with expenses for amp parts, you also need to consider advertising money as well. Maybe at the end of Vintage Guitar. I bet the rates are through the roof for Guitar Player.
If you look there(Vintage Guitar), you will find many others doing the same thing. Competition is probably at an all time high right now. The DIY craze is at a peak now more then ever.
You also need to establish who your market is going towards, metal, blues/rock, do-it -all amp,whatever. Channel switching vs.minimal controls for less signal loss. Figure out who you want to sell to. But this even comes down to marketing
As a builder/modder, this almost hurts to say but this is what I found. I would like to believe "if you built, they will come", but I'm not too sure.
I sold an amp to a guy who owned his own marketing/consulting firm and I asked this very question. He said the same thing, marketing. Along with expenses for amp parts, you also need to consider advertising money as well. Maybe at the end of Vintage Guitar. I bet the rates are through the roof for Guitar Player.
If you look there(Vintage Guitar), you will find many others doing the same thing. Competition is probably at an all time high right now. The DIY craze is at a peak now more then ever.
You also need to establish who your market is going towards, metal, blues/rock, do-it -all amp,whatever. Channel switching vs.minimal controls for less signal loss. Figure out who you want to sell to. But this even comes down to marketing
As a builder/modder, this almost hurts to say but this is what I found. I would like to believe "if you built, they will come", but I'm not too sure.
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Agreed. A good part of a successful venture is to first identify your customer. Get to understand what your customer wants and how he/she will find out you have it. There's a lot more than having a good product, and, honestly, selling based on price is likely to be the wrong approach. Lower price leads to commodity thinking, and somebody else will cut your price by a few bucks, and you're off to the basement.
You need something unique/special to offer, and charge what it's worth.
You need something unique/special to offer, and charge what it's worth.
The first thing to do is determine if there is a hole in the market for what you make.
I had a brief go at selling amplifier modules for ebay and they didn't sell unless I made a loss on them. I wasn't even making money to pay for my time.
There is so much competition now especially from China where they can make things at a fraction of the price we can.
The only way is to specialise and make something very specialist and expensive.
I had a brief go at selling amplifier modules for ebay and they didn't sell unless I made a loss on them. I wasn't even making money to pay for my time.
There is so much competition now especially from China where they can make things at a fraction of the price we can.
The only way is to specialise and make something very specialist and expensive.
Oooo its going to be tuff, but as long as ya have fun with it and make those logo's BIG so it can be seen from the stage.
Easier said then done.... But the ONLY way the big name amp companies got on the map was by landing a big fish....
Major artist Endorsement... because we live in a world of sheeple and the herd effect is alive and well....
If you land a BIG FISH to play your amp...then you will be set....
If not, then you will just struggle along like the rest of small amp companies, supporting the supply chain...
Most artist are equipment junkies....they will take whatever they can get for free and promise you they will use only your amp from now on... then a week later taking in another free amp from another amp builder until they gone through all the amp makers, this way they can sell them on Ebay and make money for their bad habits....Ask any boutique amp maker about this and you will open up a sour wound......Usually Fender will apply enough pressure and offerings to make them sign to endorsements and make them toss all other gear... regardless of how bad they sound with their new gear...
Think of it like scouting for Major League pitchers...you got to get to them when their up and coming.... Once their Big fish they are tough to get to since they are all "locked in" to major endorsements by then...
Major artist Endorsement... because we live in a world of sheeple and the herd effect is alive and well....
If you land a BIG FISH to play your amp...then you will be set....
If not, then you will just struggle along like the rest of small amp companies, supporting the supply chain...
Most artist are equipment junkies....they will take whatever they can get for free and promise you they will use only your amp from now on... then a week later taking in another free amp from another amp builder until they gone through all the amp makers, this way they can sell them on Ebay and make money for their bad habits....Ask any boutique amp maker about this and you will open up a sour wound......Usually Fender will apply enough pressure and offerings to make them sign to endorsements and make them toss all other gear... regardless of how bad they sound with their new gear...
Think of it like scouting for Major League pitchers...you got to get to them when their up and coming.... Once their Big fish they are tough to get to since they are all "locked in" to major endorsements by then...
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Have a read of this....
Schiit Happened: The Story of the World's Most Improbable Start-Up
Jason's story is not only a fantastic primer on starting your own (and in his case very successful) audio gear business, it is really interesting and at times very funny. Full of info on the pitfalls to be avoided. Highly recommended.
The first post has direct links to the various chapters if you don't want to wade through all the other posts.
Schiit Happened: The Story of the World's Most Improbable Start-Up
Jason's story is not only a fantastic primer on starting your own (and in his case very successful) audio gear business, it is really interesting and at times very funny. Full of info on the pitfalls to be avoided. Highly recommended.
The first post has direct links to the various chapters if you don't want to wade through all the other posts.
You already are an amp company, the question is whether or not you can become a profitable one.
If you want to be a car company, you don't start put by building a plant, you start out by building a car in your garage and then trying to sell it. Apple Computer started in a garage, Mesa Boogie amplifiers started in less than a garage, it was in a shed.
Don't put the cart before the horse. You can maybe roll out several per week, but that is pointless if they have nowhere to go. Our son once started a rock band. They had a bass player and a guitarist, the rest of the band wasn't formed yet. But they had their T-shirts designed, and their plans for a band van were going swell. I asked how it went after their first "practice." "Oh it went GREAT, we had a bunch of girls show up." Priorities.
Make an amp, let people play it, find out what they think. Just because you think it is the best sounding amp ever, doesn't mean anyone else does. There has to be a demand for your product, or it will sit in your driveway.
You mention price point, and how your strategy is to offer lower prices than Fender et al. Have you identified your cost? It is easy to say an amp cab has only $20 of wood in it, or whatever. But it doesn't assemble itself. How many man-hours went into that cab? And don't forget your design time, if you spend 20 hours getting all the details, that is 20 hours of your engineering time. Someone has to go get the materials or pay to have them delivered, the wood has to be cut to size, prepared, baffle cut, assembled, then the tolex cut and applied. Corner hardware bought and applied. Got handles? Grille a separate piece or is the speaker rear mount. ANyway all that and we only have the box. How many hours go into assembling the amp chassis?
And amp materials. Have you made a list of the transformers, tubes, tube sockets, part boards, caps, resistors, controls, knobs, jacks, rectifiers, pilot light assembly, power switch, fuse holder, power cord and perhaps IEC connector, and whatever else I am forgetting? Even screws and nuts, something has to hold the transformers in place. And priced it out? Don't be looking at the 100 piece or 1000 piece parts pricing unless you are indeed ordering in those amounts. Chances are you are buying transformers one or two at a time, right? You can find cheap knobs, but good knobs can cost you $3, so if your amp uses 10 knobs, ther is $30 tied up in the knobs alone in your amp.
Once you have a costed out parts list, then add up the shipping to get those parts. Chances are you will not get them all at the same supplier, so shipping adds up.
I hope you have a value for your time. Once you have added up all those materials costs, and how many man hours your assembly took, decide what those hours are worth and add those to your cost figure. On top of all that is the profit margin you hope to achieve. if you sell direct, then there you go. If you plan to sell to some dealer - it is a little early to be thinking sales network - then he is going to want to add his markup to the price. All that goes into the asking price for retail sales.
Until you have achieved a substantial level of success, you will be what we call a boutique builder, a fancy name for a cottage industry. Nothing wrong with that, but it ain't Fender.
I urge you to build an amp, tweak it and refine it til you are happy with it. Then have people locally play it and see what they think.
If you want to be a car company, you don't start put by building a plant, you start out by building a car in your garage and then trying to sell it. Apple Computer started in a garage, Mesa Boogie amplifiers started in less than a garage, it was in a shed.
Don't put the cart before the horse. You can maybe roll out several per week, but that is pointless if they have nowhere to go. Our son once started a rock band. They had a bass player and a guitarist, the rest of the band wasn't formed yet. But they had their T-shirts designed, and their plans for a band van were going swell. I asked how it went after their first "practice." "Oh it went GREAT, we had a bunch of girls show up." Priorities.
Make an amp, let people play it, find out what they think. Just because you think it is the best sounding amp ever, doesn't mean anyone else does. There has to be a demand for your product, or it will sit in your driveway.
You mention price point, and how your strategy is to offer lower prices than Fender et al. Have you identified your cost? It is easy to say an amp cab has only $20 of wood in it, or whatever. But it doesn't assemble itself. How many man-hours went into that cab? And don't forget your design time, if you spend 20 hours getting all the details, that is 20 hours of your engineering time. Someone has to go get the materials or pay to have them delivered, the wood has to be cut to size, prepared, baffle cut, assembled, then the tolex cut and applied. Corner hardware bought and applied. Got handles? Grille a separate piece or is the speaker rear mount. ANyway all that and we only have the box. How many hours go into assembling the amp chassis?
And amp materials. Have you made a list of the transformers, tubes, tube sockets, part boards, caps, resistors, controls, knobs, jacks, rectifiers, pilot light assembly, power switch, fuse holder, power cord and perhaps IEC connector, and whatever else I am forgetting? Even screws and nuts, something has to hold the transformers in place. And priced it out? Don't be looking at the 100 piece or 1000 piece parts pricing unless you are indeed ordering in those amounts. Chances are you are buying transformers one or two at a time, right? You can find cheap knobs, but good knobs can cost you $3, so if your amp uses 10 knobs, ther is $30 tied up in the knobs alone in your amp.
Once you have a costed out parts list, then add up the shipping to get those parts. Chances are you will not get them all at the same supplier, so shipping adds up.
I hope you have a value for your time. Once you have added up all those materials costs, and how many man hours your assembly took, decide what those hours are worth and add those to your cost figure. On top of all that is the profit margin you hope to achieve. if you sell direct, then there you go. If you plan to sell to some dealer - it is a little early to be thinking sales network - then he is going to want to add his markup to the price. All that goes into the asking price for retail sales.
Until you have achieved a substantial level of success, you will be what we call a boutique builder, a fancy name for a cottage industry. Nothing wrong with that, but it ain't Fender.
I urge you to build an amp, tweak it and refine it til you are happy with it. Then have people locally play it and see what they think.
Enzo makes a very good point, build one or a few amps, make refinements until you are happy, but also very important to get your target market to play it and tell you honestly what they think..and be open minded as to what they have to say. If you are a player as well as the designer, it's an advantage because you can better relate to what people want and need. Differentiate yourself from the big amp companies and don't try to compete on cost (for the standard stuff) as you may find that people are willing to pay a bit more for well built amps with quality parts from a smaller company with more local and personal service.
Good luck!
Good luck!
Dang! Here I am buying 3 PAs this weekend (a 60 watt Precision Electronics, a 35 watt Bogen, and a 20 watt Davis) and a Hammond L111 organ amp. My plan was to sell the Precision Electronics (either as a refurbished PA or as a guitar amp conversion) and possibly the Bogen as well.
My plan was a bit different, though. E-bay is too much trouble with shipping. I figured I'd go with Craigslist. We have a fairly good local music scene where I live and lots of musicians, so I was hoping I could intrigue someone into buying a conversion. I was going to offer a year parts & labor warranty. Sounds like it might be harder than I thought.
I'm only spending $150 for the 4 amps, so I can hardly go wrong, though. I suppose I could be stuck with 4 more amps. Woe is me.
EXCELLENT advice posted above.
Just for a little extra specific comments:
Sounds unjust or cruel buy much more is needed, including good luck or "being in the right place at the right time".
If at a certain time Carlos Santana hadn't chosen Prune Music or wherever he listened and liked one of the very first Mesa Boogies (to which he gave that name) , not sure if Mesa would have been what it is today.
And many other similar examples.
Now, when you get the ball rolling, it's different; what's tough is starting and having the initial grow up.
Not very likely, unless you are just building kits, think Ceriatone, Weber, etc. , and have everything in a big cardboard box.
Only then you (barely) can make a head a day, think you have to populate and mount the board, pots/jacks/sockets/transformers/power sockets or cables/fuses/power and standby switches/front and back panels/ plus plugging tubes, then testing, biasing, ugh !!!!!!
And that working like a Chinese sweatshop worker, working as fast as possible.
While to have any chance at it you should be a slow, careful, meticulous artisan, creating what amounts to a work of art.
And what if you have to make your own eyeletted/turret boards, or much worse, build PTP on terminal strips and tagboards?
If you use a PCB to speed things up, fine, but first it has to be *designed* , then prototypes made, *debugged* which implies redesign and asking for more prototypes, a huge $$$ and time investment, and once happy with it (may take months, specially to debug small but annoying ground loops) you must place an order for, say, 50 or 100 units at least to get a competitive price.
If you buy over the counter transformers you are already paying mark up , multiplied by as many hands as it went through, nobody works for free, so you start paying way more than any established manufacturer who buys straight from Factory in commercial quantities.
Chassis?
As said before, if you buy a kit it's an already solved problem, but then you are building what anybody else can, paying the same (high) cost as them ... where's the competitive edge?
If you have it custom made, either pay a fortune for small orders (say, less than 10) waterjet or Laser cut ones, or have 50/100 made at a conventional factory, either with CNC machinery or the traditional way, with assorted dies , punches and presses.
Custom front panels/cabinet Logos?
There your sister can help you, perfect, but then you'll need to have them cut, punched and silkscreened , think lots of 50/100 to get good prices.
Family/neighbours/old school chums do not count because even if they buy one, the ball stops rolling there.
Think that you have to sell them to perfect strangers, counting only on your salesman skills, looks, actual sound, price, how much can you get a perfect stranger to trust you, how much you can make anybody to have GAS, to drool for your product, to spend hard earned cash into it.
Impossible?
No, it has been done time and again, at least by a few.
They have accumulated so much good Karma that even if a couple modern models aren't exactly the best, others are and anyway that whole 60 years History keeps the ball rolling.
So don't compare to them, because it's pointless.
And prices won't b that low, because you start with expensive parts to begin with.
You will never be able to compete, price wise, with, say, Behringer , nor all those "American" makers which actually outsource production to China or Vietnam, so base your strategy on something else.
You'd have to sell tons of stuff while today the problem is selling the first few.
Plus most classic amps are made of generic circuit blocks,often straight out of Tech manuals.
That said, a Big Corporation can sue you to death and make your life miserable.
They don't need to actually *win* in Court, simply drive you crazy.
That said, old established circuits are probably Public Domain by now, but check with a Lawyer friend.
Modern, high gain or complex ones, including very complex switching matrix: I would avoid them like the Plague, because they are very specific and easy to prove yours clones them.
Today?
If I had to start today it would be impossible to compete with good looking and dirt cheap Asian products, which enter easily through wide open Customs doors, by the container load.
FWIW my Son is also studying Industrial Engineering, but won't continue with my now very small factory, with ageing machinery and stuff, simply because the Market is not there any more.
Just read in another Forum that a Malaysian made Ceriatone kit, retail priced at $1000, pays only $30 Import Duty 😡
It's a (bad) joke, no surprise US jobs went overseas.
Just for a little extra specific comments:
Yes it can, of course, as soon as you have a few thousand U$ to start it.
Sorry but not enough.
Sounds unjust or cruel buy much more is needed, including good luck or "being in the right place at the right time".
If at a certain time Carlos Santana hadn't chosen Prune Music or wherever he listened and liked one of the very first Mesa Boogies (to which he gave that name) , not sure if Mesa would have been what it is today.
And many other similar examples.
Now, when you get the ball rolling, it's different; what's tough is starting and having the initial grow up.
More than enough to start.
Several per week?
Not very likely, unless you are just building kits, think Ceriatone, Weber, etc. , and have everything in a big cardboard box.
Only then you (barely) can make a head a day, think you have to populate and mount the board, pots/jacks/sockets/transformers/power sockets or cables/fuses/power and standby switches/front and back panels/ plus plugging tubes, then testing, biasing, ugh !!!!!!
And that working like a Chinese sweatshop worker, working as fast as possible.
While to have any chance at it you should be a slow, careful, meticulous artisan, creating what amounts to a work of art.
And what if you have to make your own eyeletted/turret boards, or much worse, build PTP on terminal strips and tagboards?
If you use a PCB to speed things up, fine, but first it has to be *designed* , then prototypes made, *debugged* which implies redesign and asking for more prototypes, a huge $$$ and time investment, and once happy with it (may take months, specially to debug small but annoying ground loops) you must place an order for, say, 50 or 100 units at least to get a competitive price.
If you buy over the counter transformers you are already paying mark up , multiplied by as many hands as it went through, nobody works for free, so you start paying way more than any established manufacturer who buys straight from Factory in commercial quantities.
Chassis?
As said before, if you buy a kit it's an already solved problem, but then you are building what anybody else can, paying the same (high) cost as them ... where's the competitive edge?
If you have it custom made, either pay a fortune for small orders (say, less than 10) waterjet or Laser cut ones, or have 50/100 made at a conventional factory, either with CNC machinery or the traditional way, with assorted dies , punches and presses.
Custom front panels/cabinet Logos?
There your sister can help you, perfect, but then you'll need to have them cut, punched and silkscreened , think lots of 50/100 to get good prices.
It will be hard to sell even one , specially the first one 🙁
Family/neighbours/old school chums do not count because even if they buy one, the ball stops rolling there.
Think that you have to sell them to perfect strangers, counting only on your salesman skills, looks, actual sound, price, how much can you get a perfect stranger to trust you, how much you can make anybody to have GAS, to drool for your product, to spend hard earned cash into it.
Impossible?
No, it has been done time and again, at least by a few.
They are the greatest, have 60 years story behind them, have been used by the greatest players in recorded History, they selling point is quite unrelated to price, and to a point even to quality.
They have accumulated so much good Karma that even if a couple modern models aren't exactly the best, others are and anyway that whole 60 years History keeps the ball rolling.
So don't compare to them, because it's pointless.
what all others do, by the way.
And prices won't b that low, because you start with expensive parts to begin with.
You will never be able to compete, price wise, with, say, Behringer , nor all those "American" makers which actually outsource production to China or Vietnam, so base your strategy on something else.
That's Economics 101 but how will you do that?
You'd have to sell tons of stuff while today the problem is selling the first few.
Patent/copyright Law is horrible protecting circuits, unless some element is proven to be new, original, never before commercially used nor published, even in an obscure Technical Magazine written in some unreadable Central European language and you got your own US patent on it.
Plus most classic amps are made of generic circuit blocks,often straight out of Tech manuals.
That said, a Big Corporation can sue you to death and make your life miserable.
They don't need to actually *win* in Court, simply drive you crazy.
That said, old established circuits are probably Public Domain by now, but check with a Lawyer friend.
Modern, high gain or complex ones, including very complex switching matrix: I would avoid them like the Plague, because they are very specific and easy to prove yours clones them.
Basically, what you copyright is the *drawing* , like if it were a work of Art (it is so, in a way).
Personally, I still am in that road, since 1969, have lost count but am around 14000 amps delivered , have never ever worked in anything else, but believe me,I was lucky, was in the right place at the right time, when I started Argentina was heavily protected behind Tariff and trade barriers, and even so, it has not been easy.
Today?
If I had to start today it would be impossible to compete with good looking and dirt cheap Asian products, which enter easily through wide open Customs doors, by the container load.
FWIW my Son is also studying Industrial Engineering, but won't continue with my now very small factory, with ageing machinery and stuff, simply because the Market is not there any more.
Just read in another Forum that a Malaysian made Ceriatone kit, retail priced at $1000, pays only $30 Import Duty 😡
It's a (bad) joke, no surprise US jobs went overseas.
You may think your designs are original, but 99.99% of the time they are not. Changing the 1.5k cathode resistor to 1.6k or the 100k plate load resistor to 111k is not an innovation. Keep in mind that tube technology was already mature and sophisticated in the 1930s. They had invented television and radar and short wave radio and many other things. The old Radio Design Handbook is as valid today as it was 75 years ago. There is very little anyone comes up with today that has not already been come up with. Not to say you didn't come up with it on your own, I'll believe you did. But chances are someone else did too, and decades ago.
And as Juan points out, all you are copyrighting is the schematic drawing.
Go look at published circuits from RCA and other tube makers of the old days, then compare those to old Fender and Marshall circuits.
I think the only real originality today is how you put the pieces together, and even then, there's only so much you can do that's original. I think the latest original thinking (and this is probably a few decades old) is coming up with ways to cut loudness while limiting tonal changes. There have been a few patents in that area, but other than that, I don't think I've seen anything in newer amps that you can't find in an older one.
the Schiit Audio story is good - but they both had decades of audio company, production and marketing prior experience and caught a huge wave of new demand for amps/DACs for higher quality headphones
I'm still reading it. I think it should be recommended reading for anyone attempting ANY startup business that has dreams of success. Tubelab has been around for nearly 10 years, yet hasn't grown, because I haven't had the time and resources to devote to it. However there are a lot of parallels between Jason's (early) story and mine.
I have built guitar amps for other people 3 times in my life, and there will likely be a fourth in the future.
You, I, or anyone else that is starting out small is NOT going to make it big time trying to build a better (or cheaper) Marshall, Fender, Vox, or whatever.
That doesn't mean that you can't successfully knock off a copy of a popular Marshall and sell them. I have a friend who does exactly that, and sells one every few months. His are unique because they are covered in white Tolex. He makes a few $$$ on each one, which probably translates to maybe $5 per hour. He plays in a band, and uses his own amps, which gets some local publicity, and generates about as many sales as he can build amps for.
My first amp building period was when I was in middle, and high school. Same business model. I played in a band, used my own amps, sold it, made myself another. These were one off tube amps made from old TV parts. Their virtue was price. Often I sold a good working LOUD combo guitar amp for under $100 (1960's $$$$).
The second amp building period was scattered throughout the late 70's and early 80's. These were purpose built amp heads with some unique features not available in any amp at any price that resulted in a unique tone. The most notable was push pull with two different tubes.....and sometimes three! I sold these things as fast as I could make them by word of mouth, but within a few years I had SATURATED the local market. No internet in 1980. It was hard to reach outside the local South Florida music scene. I found a more lucrative non - audio product and left the audio scene for maybe 15 years.
When my daughter was in high school she played in the HS marching band, taught drums and keyboards in local music school and had friends over every night annoying the neighbors. I got out my crusty old Mosrite and joined in enough that my wife bought me a new Les Paul for my birthday, so I built myself an amp. Within a year, every kid in the HS band that played guitar had one of my amps, and again I SATURATED that market, with no desire to expand. These were all variations on Fender Champ theme with a bit more power Tubelab style. I called them Turbo Champs, but never actually put that name on an amp. Every one was different.
In all of these cases I succeeded in supplying something that the user needed, or wanted, but couldn't get elsewhere, or couldn't afford. Today you can get a Chinese built guitar amp for $50 that works reasonably well. I have seen Chinese built tube amps for just over $100, although I haven't played one. I don't think you can compete with China on price on a commodity product.....EVER!
This means that you MUST have something unique, AND you must be able to find a market for it, AND you must be able to supply it to that market, AND you must be able to support it, AND you must be able to sell enough of them to recover your investment and maybe make a profit BEFORE someone copies YOU!
If you have a truly unique product, AND it sells well, AND your market isn't saturated quickly, your product WILL be copied. As your unique product begins to saturate the market, you need to have another one ready if you want to stay in business. Schiit has done this well. Despite the mis-steps, these guys know what they are doing.
Harsh reality?? Yes. Such is the world of commerce, and it isn't getting any friendlier.
You can NOT copyright a circuit in the USA. You can copyright a work of art (or music). You can submit your schematics as art for copyright. That only means that you have the right to sue someone who directly copies your schematic and sells copies of it. You can submit the ARTWORK for your PCB layouts as "works of art" which gives you the right to sue someone who directly copies your artwork and profits from that copy.
If you have a circuit that IS truly unique you might be able to get a patent on the circuit. Again this only gives you the right to sue someone who infringes on your patent. If a large company with lawyers on staff wants to infringe your patent, then may just do so. If you can get a lawyer to take your case, the large company may try to 'bust" your patent. They do this by finding ANYTHING that they can use to convince a jury of non technical people that someone somewhere did your thing before you did. Doing so invalidates your patent and costs you a bunch of money in legal fees. As stated, there are millions of vacuum tube patents out there and tons of literature, and chances are good that at least one of them, or ANY other written matter, can be used to bust your patent.
On the flip side of this, all the old Marshall, Fender, Vox designs did originate with design literature from the tube manufacturers. Any patents in force from their design have long since expired, so a direct ELECTRICAL copy of these old designs is usually fair game.
The big companies have DESIGN patents that cover the look and feel of their amps, and TRADEMARKS to cover the use of their name and product's name. They probably have copyrights in place for their PC board artwork. Copying these aspects can get you in trouble.
It is perfectly legal to copy someone else's design, re-lay out the PC board such that it looks different, change the name and sell it. In fact another member of this forum has done that with one of my designs. There isn't much that I can do about it.
This has been stated before, and is likely true for pure tube designs. The new and novel tech occurs when we add mosfets. microprocessors, and other new tech to old tube circuits. There are already thousands of patents here too.
For another take on starting a Company, here's the sad story of Pearce amps.
Why do I call it so?
Because, contrary to any "beginner", he was:
a) already inside a BIG COMPANY (does Gibson ring a bell ?)
b) they sold some 10000 units
c) they placed full page ads in Guitar Player
d) they were not only endorsed but actually used by Big Cats (Ty Tabor, BB King, Allan Holdsworth, etc.)
Yet Gibson/Norlin dropped them because "10000 amps sold is pocket change"
Dan Pearce then was free to improve the design, get some financial backing and succeed on his own.
Read the true inside story :
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/att...-state-guitar-amp-pearce_lab-amps-history.pdf
Before saying : "but it's an SS (ugh!!) amp!!) remember that it was in 1982 (SS amps very popular and considered the edge of Technology) , these did sound very good and were used by Guitar Gods.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NSbAa-8aH4
not many tube amps sound this good.
And yet ....... what happened?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkRIbUT6u7Q
See that money for parts was not the main problem, but for publicity.
Also they spread too thin, they should have concentrated on making a few fully finished and ready to sell units to start the ball rolling.
Although seemingly unrelated, both by distance and product, this might help:
a friend wanted to make and sell "dulce de leche" , a delicious milk and sugar candy which is very popular here in Argentina and sells by the Ton.
His reasoning was: "industrial dulce de leche is cheaply made by cheating: cheap industrial skimmed milk (they pull cream and butter first to be sold on their own), high fructose corn syrup or third grade sugar extracted by boiling from already pressed sugarcane, synthetic vanillin) while he would make high quality one out of fresh whole milk, real sugar, real vanilla pods, the *real thing*.
I suggested him: "test the waters first, buy the best ready made dulce de leche, a few packaging pots, have some nice labels printed, and try selling it, even at loss"
The idea was not earning from the beginning (he would pay full street price for his samples).
Of course, he got deeply in debt, borrowed from Banks and Family, rented some ground near a milk producing area (so he could buy straight from local producers) , bought expensive machinery: boilers, mixers, filling and packing machines, a truck, the works.
End of the story? ... we sometimes visit the rusting machinery some 20/25 years later.
Whatever was not firmly attached to ground was stolen by low life neighbours, long ago.
So I suggest you do not invest much: buy a couple classic kits, have your brother make killer cabs, your sister design killer panels (you can have them Laser engraved) and promotional material, even a user manual, put up some cool Web Page and "test the waters".
If frozen or boiling you won't be hurt 🙂
Why do I call it so?
Because, contrary to any "beginner", he was:
a) already inside a BIG COMPANY (does Gibson ring a bell ?)
b) they sold some 10000 units
c) they placed full page ads in Guitar Player
d) they were not only endorsed but actually used by Big Cats (Ty Tabor, BB King, Allan Holdsworth, etc.)
Yet Gibson/Norlin dropped them because "10000 amps sold is pocket change"
Dan Pearce then was free to improve the design, get some financial backing and succeed on his own.
Read the true inside story :
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/att...-state-guitar-amp-pearce_lab-amps-history.pdf
Before saying : "but it's an SS (ugh!!) amp!!) remember that it was in 1982 (SS amps very popular and considered the edge of Technology) , these did sound very good and were used by Guitar Gods.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NSbAa-8aH4
not many tube amps sound this good.
And yet ....... what happened?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkRIbUT6u7Q
See that money for parts was not the main problem, but for publicity.
Also they spread too thin, they should have concentrated on making a few fully finished and ready to sell units to start the ball rolling.
Although seemingly unrelated, both by distance and product, this might help:
a friend wanted to make and sell "dulce de leche" , a delicious milk and sugar candy which is very popular here in Argentina and sells by the Ton.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
His reasoning was: "industrial dulce de leche is cheaply made by cheating: cheap industrial skimmed milk (they pull cream and butter first to be sold on their own), high fructose corn syrup or third grade sugar extracted by boiling from already pressed sugarcane, synthetic vanillin) while he would make high quality one out of fresh whole milk, real sugar, real vanilla pods, the *real thing*.
I suggested him: "test the waters first, buy the best ready made dulce de leche, a few packaging pots, have some nice labels printed, and try selling it, even at loss"
The idea was not earning from the beginning (he would pay full street price for his samples).
Of course, he got deeply in debt, borrowed from Banks and Family, rented some ground near a milk producing area (so he could buy straight from local producers) , bought expensive machinery: boilers, mixers, filling and packing machines, a truck, the works.
End of the story? ... we sometimes visit the rusting machinery some 20/25 years later.
Whatever was not firmly attached to ground was stolen by low life neighbours, long ago.
So I suggest you do not invest much: buy a couple classic kits, have your brother make killer cabs, your sister design killer panels (you can have them Laser engraved) and promotional material, even a user manual, put up some cool Web Page and "test the waters".
If frozen or boiling you won't be hurt 🙂
Hey, bottom line, imho...
...there are a ton of "boutique" amps, yours will be yet another.
take the cost of parts, the real cost not the imagined cost, multiply by 5 and you have the bare minimum price that you can sell it for. Does that still work?
Subtract the related expenses, all of them, including packing, brochures, labels, everything you buy to make the thing, and see if you have more than a break-even proposition. Advertising is another matter...
Also, why is your amp any better than one that already has a name? In other words why do I want it??
It's a tough business - most are, and are highly competitive.
Some make it, most don't.
...there are a ton of "boutique" amps, yours will be yet another.
take the cost of parts, the real cost not the imagined cost, multiply by 5 and you have the bare minimum price that you can sell it for. Does that still work?
Subtract the related expenses, all of them, including packing, brochures, labels, everything you buy to make the thing, and see if you have more than a break-even proposition. Advertising is another matter...
Also, why is your amp any better than one that already has a name? In other words why do I want it??
It's a tough business - most are, and are highly competitive.
Some make it, most don't.
And speaking of copyright infringement, I don't think it's possible. Check out this ebay listing. If Fender doesn't stop this, I don't think they will stop anybody:
Keedy Relativity Reverb Amp Fender Princeton Handwired Custom Mint Barely Used | eBay
Keedy Relativity Reverb Amp Fender Princeton Handwired Custom Mint Barely Used | eBay
I'm a business underwriter by profession. This may sound like a red herring, but it is not.
You have 3 categories of product/brand attributes to work with and develop. Good / Fast / Cheap.
Most businesses struggle to direct resources into two of them. The easy choice, may be choosing which category to neglect the most.
You have 3 categories of product/brand attributes to work with and develop. Good / Fast / Cheap.
Most businesses struggle to direct resources into two of them. The easy choice, may be choosing which category to neglect the most.
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